Discussion of 8.40 "Coda" - Released 1/19/11 (Dark Horse)

[citiegal17]

Who said anything about wiccans? I am thinking the armies or failing that, vigilantes like the Scoobs, only with guns.

Yeah because its not like demons attack people at random, which its very likely one unfourtante person will be a witch who has no training other than magic to defend themselves is going to get killed because they can't, protect themselves not that they didn't have the ability but they were robbed of it to protect themselves, demons are not going to limit their victims to those trained and with abilities or years of training or viligantes who odds are won't be around for all the people that get killed much like Buffy or the slayers can't, but even more so now than before.

 

[Icarium]

Well, it's kind of hard to make heads or tails of it as the rules of magic change depending on the needs of the plot but demons seemed to thrive despite the possibility of being defeated with magic. They have been around for millennia. I don't see why modern weapons wouldn't do the job much more easily. I mean, the Ubie army in S7 was supposedly an apocalyptic threat but I don't see them surviving a bombardment from the air or even a division of infantry armed with flamethrowers.

Not to mention that more often than not, magic seems all but useless in combat - see Maclay, Tara. In S3-4 I believe Willow killed a grand total of one vampire and zero demons with magic. In the beginning of S6, the whole gang had to work hard to kill a few vampires, despite Willow's incredible power. So the average witch probably wouldn't survive an encounter with a powerful demon anyway. And I think it's undeniable that the greatest strength of demons is secrecy, so assuming the cat is out of the bag, they should be on the brink of extinction quite soon...unless the (inevitable) global amnesia occurs and things go back to the way they were.

 

[citiegal17]

Well, it's kind of hard to make heads or tails of it as the rules of magic change depending on the needs of the plot but demons seemed to thrive despite the possibility of being defeated with magic. They have been around for millennia. I don't see why modern weapons wouldn't do the job much more easily. I mean, the Ubie army in S7 was supposedly an apocalyptic threat but I don't see them surviving a bombardment from the air or even a division of infantry armed with flamethrowers.

Not to mention that more often than not, magic seems all but useless in combat - see Maclay, Tara. In S3-4 I believe Willow killed a grand total of one vampire and zero demons with magic. In the beginning of S6, the whole gang had to work hard to kill a few vampires, despite Willow's incredible power. So the average witch probably wouldn't survive an encounter with a powerful demon anyway. And I think it's undeniable that the greatest strength of demons is secrecy, so assuming the cat is out of the bag, they should be on the brink of extinction quite soon...unless the (inevitable) global amnesia occurs and things go back to the way they were.

Willow took on a hell god, a dragon, vampires, demons with her powers. The witch doesn't need bronze to beat a demon the elements could kill a demon alone, which the average witch should be able to do. If demons were on the verge of dinstiction that makes Buffy pretty much obslete I doubt Joss is going to take that angle, it would get boring fast, Buffy is his avatar he's not going to make her that boring.

 

[soblackandblue]

Finally i got my issue and read it too. First of all. I liked the issue and the focus on Buffy and the scoobies but and that´s a big but. So here it comes folks. 🙂

I don´t like the 4 or even 6 months gap. It looks like nothing happend. The army lost thousands of soldiers but it seemed nobody really cared about that. Demons tried to conquer the earth and killed roughly thousands of people too if not a lot more and the earth was hit by several nature disasters like earthquakes,volcano eruptions and tsunamis but the humans act like nothing happened.

There are huge holes in this whole twilight story because of the fast forward.

The world now knows about demons,other dimensions and vampires but it looks like nobody cares. I know it´s the buffyverse and of course everything is fictional but this sucks. Did they all fall asleep or had another jasmine episode or what?

I want to see the world change because of what happened and nothing like "Hey you know demons exist and they tried to conquer the earth but a girl and a bunch of weirdos saved us" "Wow thats cool but it´s over right?" "Yeah it is" "Okay cool"........

Day 1: The demons came and the people fought back.
Day 2: Lots of innocent people died but the war is over and we won.
Day 3: Breaking news: "Dancing with the stars has a new cast!"

This is not new to Buffy. In season 3 a several story tall worm demon tried to destroy Sunnydale and was stopped by an army of high school students... culminating in the entire school being destroyed. Yet in season 4, we are led to believe the town has no awareness of the supernatural and a secret military organization is tasked with fighting demons.

 

[Icarium]

If demons were on the verge of dinstiction that makes Buffy pretty much obslete. I doubt Joss is going to take that angle, it would get boring fast, Buffy is his avatar he's not going to make her that boring.

Precisely my point. If we consider only the text common sense tells us that the secret war not being secret any longer should be a real gamechanger. However, meta considerations point to it not being that at all since S9 will supposedly be "back to the basics" and in any case if the army kills all demons Buffy would need a new use for her superpowers. 🙂

 

[Litheran]

I'm torn on the subject of what Angel needs to do; because I don't see the Angel I know when I look at the S8 version. He's gonna have a harder time getting back on his feet now than every time before. Because there's no Angelus to lay the blame on; he chose the wrong side and it cost the people he cares about (and the world) dearly.

Liam was not a very good man; but when his soul had to experience the evil of Angelus I believe the dark allowed what light there was to shine more brightly. I think over time that light has dimmed somewhat because of the pain and loss Angel has suffered.

I personally find it hard to believe that he could come back from what's happened. I hope that whatever is in store for him; that he finds that light again.

The reason that Buffy, Spike, Faith and Angel are so special to me isn't because they're the strongest. It's because they feel the strongest. They carry their burdens without fail.

 

[SpaceLord]

Well, it's kind of hard to make heads or tails of it as the rules of magic change depending on the needs of the plot but demons seemed to thrive despite the possibility of being defeated with magic. They have been around for millennia. I don't see why modern weapons wouldn't do the job much more easily. I mean, the Ubie army in S7 was supposedly an apocalyptic threat but I don't see them surviving a bombardment from the air or even a division of infantry armed with flamethrowers.

Not to mention that more often than not, magic seems all but useless in combat - see Maclay, Tara. In S3-4 I believe Willow killed a grand total of one vampire and zero demons with magic. In the beginning of S6, the whole gang had to work hard to kill a few vampires, despite Willow's incredible power. So the average witch probably wouldn't survive an encounter with a powerful demon anyway. And I think it's undeniable that the greatest strength of demons is secrecy, so assuming the cat is out of the bag, they should be on the brink of extinction quite soon...unless the (inevitable) global amnesia occurs and things go back to the way they were.

That is the sorry part of the writing, make it fit the story. I mean Spike was able to go one on one with Buffy when he was evil but when he became the sidekick he is at least 2 or 3 levels below somehow. Then in S6 he needs help from the whole team to patrol and can't keep Sunnydale safe on his own. It's not the first time this has been done but I've come to the conclusion that is has nothing to do with the power they wield but making their power fit the story they want to tell. In S6 they needed the world to look like it would end if they didn't bring Buffy back.

 

[behindthewheel]

I really liked this issue, despite plotholes and unanswered questions, and I'm psyched about season 9😀
May the summer come fast!

 

[goodbyetonight]

I finaly got the issue today and read it. I've been thinking about how I feel about the season as a whole and I've come to the conclusion that I can't let myself consider it canon, or I wouldn't like BtVS as much as I do. Everything I liked about the characters and the series was pretty much destroyed for me. Angel was completely OOC. Willow, who was one of my favorite characters, I couldn't stand, especially after what she did to Kennedy, which was awful. And I still want Spike to just go away. About the only thing I did like was Faith, who I think really grew as a character and cemented her spot as one of my favorites. Maybe my feelings will change after giving it all some time and letting it settle, but right now I don't see myself buying Season 9. It's a shame, since I really loved the first 20 or so issues. Oh well, for now I'll just pretend it didn't happen. :/

 

[cordangel]

OK, I want to add my random thoughts about #40 and the whole s8. This is going to be my last overview of Buffy comics, because I can't connect to these characters. Characters I can't recognize. Of course, I'm still curious as to what more damage can be done and in what weird and twisted way, but it's all. I'm done with BtVS and Joss Whedon.

Season 8 dissolved into an awful incoherent mess. I've always found part of it incomprehensible. It's a season with a lot of stuff piled on up. If you reread a lot of fans comments you realize they are around SYMBOLISM and not about the story. For instance: 'Whyare Buffy and Angel dressing those costules and what does it mean? The red egg is red because in Chinese Mythology...' Why that? Because the plot line is a mess and the characters intentions indecipherable. What are their motives? I don't know.

And the mythology? Slayers created by a semi-intelligent Universe...what about s7 and the Shadowmen? New Universe created by Slayer f@* Vampires, Whatchers who know that but we discover it after seven seasons of the show... same thing for the excistence of the Seed of Wonder. Generations of Whatchers could not located it but a brave vampire yes,thanks of his knowledge of Fyarl language?! Think how many language knew both Giles and Wesley and imagine hundreds of Watchers...

The world damaged by earthquakes, enormous waves, but in the end Venice, San Francisco the whole world are OK.

Characterizations:
-Willow professed love for Saga Wasuki came out of nowhere. She suddenly breaks up with Kennedy without a decent dialogue.
-Giles leaves everything to Faith... but was he not like a father for Buffy? You can distance your daughter, you can not understand her but you don't disinherit her. He gave Faith everything. What a father!
- Brain damaged Angel in a closet, his face covered by blood several months after Giles' death, Buffy 'can't look at him' accordingly to SA, but waltzing in a flowery wrap and inquiring if Faith is 'up to it'? And this is her great love? Faith suffered for Giles' death but her behaviour is quite different... Better not be loved by Buffy, I want to add.
-Dawn eager for anal sex and trying to make Buffy feel unconfortable...
OK: this is Joss. I no longer like Joss as a writer.

Least but most important for me:
WHY Angel have to look bad in Buffy show and have his storyline and personal development forgotten. It is unfair for him, his own series and comics and for the readers who love AtS more than BtVS. If they have to be reunited I want them to be equals. Not see the titular character of another show -that lasted five years and was great- (ab)used and destroyed in another show (or comics), thrown in the middle of a story line he doesn't even belong to.

OK, this is my sad conclusion: bye bye BtVS, bye bye Joss Whedon.

 

[Sommers Summers]

That's it. Wait, that's it, Joss?

So now Buffy's been reduced to sleeping on Xander's couch, and Dawn and him have a fake makeout session to goad Buffy out, back to work.

Ever the good Brit, Giles hands his estate over to Faith. Who rightly deserves it, more so than Buffy. And uses it to rehab Angel. Good on you, Faith. I knew you'd be good someday.

Willow breaks up with Kennedy. No surprise.

The seed is destroyed, the slayers are miffed at losing their powers and connection slowly but surely, and the witches are unhappy about forgoing their magic, and feel they've been fooled by Buffy.

Willow, it seems, now officially hates Buffy. She is most entitled to do so, really, but, boohoo (exactly what Willow told Faith in prison), most of the world is of the opinion that you and your witches are occultic, and should have been done away with in Salem. (At least that's what it looked like to me the whole of the season.)

But, to ditch Kennedy for Saga Vasuki is low indeed. It is an insult to Oz and Tara, in my opinion (and purely so.) Even Xander would be disappointed.

In addition, the slayers hate that Buffy bonked the enemy (Angel).

Thank you, Xander, for thru a simple title deed, you have averted a Spuffy scene.

And, another wise move from him, he does not fall in love with Buffy, no matter what Buffy feels. You rejected Xander long ago. Don't expect him to wait for you. At all. Besides, anyone who falls in love with Buffy dies anyway, or is dead already.

Joss announces that S9 will be on character building. Willow is slated for some centrestage time. (But the last time this happened, she almost destroyed the world.)

I think that Season 8 proves that, as beautiful and intelligent this series has been, it is now totally misguided, and dare I say it, lost.

I think that perfectly good characters like Willow and Angel (and dare I say it,Buffy) have been warped to the extent that they aren't the characters that we'd come to know and love anymore. (Only Faith and Xander actually improved, IMO. I'd even give Faith a "most improved" award.) It is sad really.

This is especially true with Angel, whose character in Ats does not corroborate with the BtVS one. It's not right - tell me, which is canon? If both, then how can the same person trying to save LA from hell, wants to send the rest of the world there? I don't see how.

And Willow comes off as power-hungry. Surely after S6 she would have learnt. No, she falls in love with the devil Saga Vasuki, which totally erases all character growth in S6. Sounds really mad.

Now, this is all my personal opinion, and you may decide for yourself otherwise. But for me, I think Joss needs to abandon ship now, given how messed up this has become. I understand that this was all driven by a need to direct BtVS in the direction that allows Frayverse to exist. But in so doing, he'd eroded S6 of BtVS AND ALL of Ats. [Heard of retcon, Joss?]

Really, Joss needs to realise that BtVS is spinning out of control like the Stuxnet infected Iran nuclear reactors. Drop it, and do a series with Olivia Williams and Fran Kranz. Maybe Cougarhouse would be a great new project.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

Cougarhouse would be a great new project.

This has my vote for comment of the year. Oh yeah. Really. I laughed good and long on that and still chuckle as I type.

 

[Sommers Summers]

This has my vote for comment of the year. Oh yeah. Really. I laughed good and long on that and still chuckle as I type.

Inspired by 'inapporiate starches' and 'I am very British, I don't get lentils'. Man, this sounds fun. TOPHERxDEWITT FTW!

 

[SpaceLord]

This is especially true with Angel, whose character in Ats does not corroborate with the BtVS one. It's not right - tell me, which is canon? If both, then how can the same person trying to save LA from hell, wants to send the rest of the world there? I don't see how.

Don't forget that his selfish actions sent LA to hell in the first place. After reading all the comments and seeing some interesting points on how Angel really is in character although over the top I have come to the conclusion that the guy probably suffers from Münchhausen by proxy syndrome, only difference is that he's continuously putting the world in danger instead of a person. He probably suffers from several other narcissistic problems as well but that one was fun to come up with 🙂

 

[VisionGirl]

Well, it's kind of hard to make heads or tails of it as the rules of magic change depending on the needs of the plot but demons seemed to thrive despite the possibility of being defeated with magic.

I'm reading a Q & A with Scott Allie and he says:

'Cause with magic the authors get to make the rules, and we're saying that these things are characteristics of the individual creature, trapped in this non-magic world. So Slayers have their powers, their strength. That big C'thulhu thing Spike was chasing could fly. Vampires drink blood to live and can't go out in sunlight. And need an invite.... [W]e reserve some freedom to interpret the new rules of magic.

No wonder we're all confused, not even the writers can explain the rules of the new semi-magicless world.

---------- Post added at 06:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:53 PM ----------

Then again, somebody at Whedonesque included this quote (someone can tell me which issue it's from):
"Magic, General. You still haven't learned the rules."
"There are no goddamn rules!"
"That's sort of what I mean."

---------- Post added at 06:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:13 PM ----------

Oh, I read something in that Q&A that got me thinking about magic and Spike's non-invitation. If magic is gone, then the "de-inviting" spell is gone. I'm sure that neither Buffy, Dawn nor Xander are thinking about that aspect, but if any vampire is invited in, then for some reason turns bad, or the inviter wants to change their mind, they can't. They're invited in forever.

 

[white avenger]

Oh, I read something in that Q&A that got me thinking about magic and Spike's non-invitation. If magic is gone, then the "de-inviting" spell is gone. I'm sure that neither Buffy, Dawn nor Xander are thinking about that aspect, but if any vampire is invited in, then for some reason turns bad, or the inviter wants to change their mind, they can't. They're invited in forever.

That's probably another reason why Buffy hasn't invited Spike into Xander and Dawn's apartment. She may have implicit faith in Spike, but Xander certainly doesn't. Even if Buffy actually could invite him in, and I really don't think that she can, she would be hesitant to do something so obviously contrary to her hosts' wishes. I still firmly believe, however, that, once Buffy has her own place, that invitation is a done deal. Whether she retains any romantic interest in Spike or not (and of course she does) she still considers him a friend and confidante, and as such would be welcome in her home at any time.

 

[Sommers Summers]

Oh, I read something in that Q&A that got me thinking about magic and Spike's non-invitation. If magic is gone, then the "de-inviting" spell is gone. I'm sure that neither Buffy, Dawn nor Xander are thinking about that aspect, but if any vampire is invited in, then for some reason turns bad, or the inviter wants to change their mind, they can't. They're invited in forever.

Uh oh.
In any case, Buffy should long and hard about entering another relationship with any vampire. There is a price to pay for contravening the job title. Remember, she is/was Buffy the VAMPIRE Slayer.

 

[cordangel]

Don't forget that his selfish actions sent LA to hell in the first place.

Selfish actions?! Do you mean it is a selfish action to fight against all odds to reaffirm human will, willing to die in the process? It is selfish when your friends has been asked to vote as a team? And how could he know LA should have been sent in hell? Truth is Buffy has always got a free card while Angel not.

 

[sosa lola]

Other than Angel, I think all characters acted perfectly in character, especially Willow.

Thank you, Xander, for thru a simple title deed, you have averted a Spuffy scene.

What did Xander do?

 

[Sommers Summers]

Don't forget that his selfish actions sent LA to hell in the first place.

Selfish actions?! Do you mean it is a selfish action to fight against all odds to reaffirm human will, willing to die in the process? It is selfish when your friends has been asked to vote as a team? And how could he know LA should have been sent in hell? Truth is Buffy has always got a free card while Angel not.

Exactly my point. It's unfair. Willow also probably lacks a free card too, that poor redhead. Joss, stop hating on Irish, redheads and Jews! 😛

Xander? By owning the flat, he avoids a Spuffy situation. I hope it applies to Bangel too.