Discussion of 8.40 "Coda" - Released 1/19/11 (Dark Horse)

[sosa lola]

Xander? By owning the flat, he avoids a Spuffy situation. I hope it applies to Bangel too.

It's not like Xander never invited Spike into his apartment before. And Xander is a different man now, if he thought Buffy wanted Spike in, he'd invite him in a heartbeat. S7 shows that Xander's view of Spike have changed because he trusts Buffy's judgement.

 

[Sommers Summers]

Well, I wouldn't trust Buffy's judgement, and so I thought that this step in ending the nonsense that is the slayer loving her kill target was the saving grace of the chapter.

 

[citiegal17]

Mac, describing witchcraft like occultists or Willow that way is about outdated thinking as the one Simone uses to mock Buffy in Predators in Pray. If anyone forgot Willlow turned into a white witch when she did the Chosen spell, and has awesome character developement since season 6 onwards. I trust her judgement on things because she has the actual has the hands on experience and years of training to back up her thoughts, but of course no were back to the sterotype witch and magic crack which is wildly outdated. Joss made Willow a complex character, who isn't the sterotypical witch, and hardly the wicked witch of the west if you get the reference, she's more a Glinda like referenced in ATS. Though I found your post mostly good overall, I didn't see it that way before, although I don't agree with everything in your post.

 

[white avenger]

Don't forget that his selfish actions sent LA to hell in the first place.

Selfish actions?! Do you mean it is a selfish action to fight against all odds to reaffirm human will, willing to die in the process? It is selfish when your friends has been asked to vote as a team? And how could he know LA should have been sent in hell? Truth is Buffy has always got a free card while Angel not.

By "selfish actions," I believe that SL was referring to the fact that Angel took an action that he, himself, described as being little more than a gesture, a slap in the face of the beings who could destroy them at any time. Granted, the Senior Partners had sinister plans for LA and probably the entire human race EVENTUALLY, but that in no way gave Angel the right to escalate the action. And as for allowing his friends to "vote as a team," if the result only affected those few people, that would be a valid point. However, since Angel's actions affected every man, woman, child, dog, cat, and goldfish in the LA area, that little vote wasn't really what I would call valid.

 

[SpaceLord]

Don't forget that his selfish actions sent LA to hell in the first place.

Selfish actions?! Do you mean it is a selfish action to fight against all odds to reaffirm human will, willing to die in the process? It is selfish when your friends has been asked to vote as a team? And how could he know LA should have been sent in hell? Truth is Buffy has always got a free card while Angel not.

I guess I considered it more of a "suicide by cop" and replace cop with senior partners, lets face it the guy needs a carrot dangled in front of his face to keep on fighting. Wasn't he tired of it in S1 of Angel already and then they came found out about the shanshu prophecy?

Now it also comes to mind that he killed the innocent in his campaign to kill the circle of black thorn but ultimately that to me just seemed to be the last straw. At the end of S4 he decided to alter the minds of all his friends, they were not asked about that part as I recall. Of course that wasn't the first time, as I recall he did something similar in S1 when he became human.

I actually like or find his character interesting in some fanfic but the more I think about his overall character on the show and in S8 the less I care about him.

It just feels like the guy does the same mistakes over and over again and then goes "geeee diiiid IIIII do that?!?" and to me it just gets old real fast.

 

[Daniel Osbourne]

Well, I wouldn't trust Buffy's judgement, and so I thought that this step in ending the nonsense that is the slayer loving her kill target was the saving grace of the chapter.

Did you just completely ignore the fact that Spike is currently one of the more morally centered characters? How is Buffy loving a vampire in any way "nonsense"? Besides, since when does Xander still hate Spike?

Regarding whether or not Buffy can invite Spike in, I don't think she can. That would mean that anyone who goes on a sleepover can invite a vampire into their host's home. Then again, we don't know whether Buffy considers Xander's apartment her home. On the other hand, we probably don't know enough the invite spell to tell for sure.

 

[Anya2012]

Ever the good Brit, Giles hands his estate over to Faith. Who rightly deserves it, more so than Buffy. And uses it to rehab Angel. Good on you, Faith. I knew you'd be good someday.

Totally disagree. Faith DOES NOT deserve it. Buffy was his Slayer. Not Faith. I don't care that Faith redeemed herself but have you Faith fans forgotten what she did to Buffy?

 

[WakingNightmare]

Totally disagree. Faith DOES NOT deserve it. Buffy was his Slayer. Not Faith. I don't care that Faith redeemed herself but have you Faith fans forgotten what she did to Buffy?

Nope, I haven't forgotten what she did to Buffy and I doubt any other Faith fan has. But what's the point in holding a grudge forever? It'll just make you bitter. Buffy is a very forgiving woman.

As for Giles leaving all his stuff to Faith, well, Buffy has a huge support system. She has a family that will be there for her no matter what. Faith does not. Anyways, I don't see why Faith wouldn'tdeserve it. Buffy has kept Giles cut off for a while now, but he and Faith have been very close this season. She has been his Slayer. I don't think it's a matter of "deserving" it any way. It's who would need it more. Buffy has Xander, Dawn, Willow, Spike, Angel and many more all looking out for her, ready to support her if she needs it. Now that Giles is gone Faith really doesn't have anyone.

 

[prophecygrrl]

Nope, I haven't forgotten what she did to Buffy and I doubt any other Faith fan has. But what's the point in holding a grudge forever? It'll just make you bitter. Buffy is a very forgiving woman.

As for Giles leaving all his stuff to Faith, well, Buffy has a huge support system. She has a family that will be there for her no matter what. Faith does not. Anyways, I don't see why Faith wouldn'tdeserve it. Buffy has kept Giles cut off for a while now, but he and Faith have been very close this season. She has been his Slayer. I don't think it's a matter of "deserving" it any way. It's who would need it more. Buffy has Xander, Dawn, Willow, Spike, Angel and many more all looking out for her, ready to support her if she needs it. Now that Giles is gone Faith really doesn't have anyone.

I agree. Faith did some horrible things. Things no one has forgotten. But the redemption thing? She's working on it, people! 😀 😀 And she needs Giles' help to do it. Not because she's weak, but because it's part of her journey.

Giles would never give all his possessions to Faith as a slap in the face to Buffy. I'm very sure that he has his reasons, and him leaving Buffy the 'Vampyr' book, if it symbolizes what we all think it does, is extremely significant. He reminds her of her mission, and she needs that now more than ever.

 

[Icarium]

It just feels underserved - not so much from the character's perspecyive but the audience. Giles and Faith had no personal connection whatsoever during the first seven seasons - I don't think they had a single one on on conversation that we got to see. Their arc in S8 was much too short to really build that connection and as with so many events of S8, we are reduced to guessing what happened off-screen.

Also, I am probably missing something because I never gave a fig about Faith but isn't she a wanted fugitive? How can she possibly inherit anything?

If anyone forgot Willlow turned into a white witch when she did the Chosen spell, and has awesome character developement since season 6 onwards.

Really? Since when is reducing a character to their superpowers only "awesome development"? When was the last time Willow did something cool that didn't involve magic?

It's not like Xander never invited Spike into his apartment before. And Xander is a different man now, if he thought Buffy wanted Spike in, he'd invite him in a heartbeat. S7 shows that Xander's view of Spike have changed because he trusts Buffy's judgement.

Maybe he changed his mind after Buffy proved how moronically suicidal her blind faith in Spike was.

 

[citiegal17]

Really? Since when is reducing a character to their superpowers only "awesome development"? When was the last time Willow did something cool that didn't involve magic?

I think you misunderstood me, having superpowers wasn't the cool character developement I was getting at. Willow has always been Willow with or without the superpowers, but thats not really my point but I'll say it anyway. Willow developed into a true Earth Wiccan, connecting spiritually with her magic, not just doing it for power or for convience. My comment was more to illustrate the fact Willow isn't season 6 Willow, she is not that witch, she changed and Chosen was one of the more finer moments of this character developement. Its seems that Willow character is sterotyped so that kinda annoyed me, since Willow is so much more than her magic, and she isn't the same girl she was in season 6. Willow has always capable of cool thing without her magic, for example she was able to heal Tara in season 5, she couldn't do this without her brains, she was able to let go of the Tara and has been moving on like shown in Goddess and Monsters, and she hack computers if she wanted too.

 

[Icarium]

Its seems that Willow character is sterotyped

She is. By the writers, though.

Willow developed into a true Earth Wiccan, connecting spiritually with her magic, not just doing it for power or for convience.

That's nice in theory but personally I am much more interested in Willow the person than in Willow the witch. She is my favourite BtVS character but only because I try to pretend S6-8 never happened. Willow whom I knew wouldn't have had an affair with Exposition Snake or lied to Buffy to save magic. The current version is like a completely different character that I have very little interest in. And not because I don't like the idea of Willow being a witch, it's just that the execution is so sloppy, I'd rather watch the worst episodes of "Charmed" rather than say "Wrecked".

Willow has always capable of cool thing without her magic, for example she was able to heal Tara in season 5, she couldn't do this without her brains, she was able to let go of the Tara and has been moving on like shown in Goddess and Monsters, and she hack computers if she wanted too.

I just want Willow to have something else in her life, not just magic. Is that too much to ask for?

 

[citiegal17]

She is. By the writers, though.



That's nice in theory but personally I am much more interested in Willow the person than in Willow the witch. She is my favourite BtVS character but only because I try to pretend S6-8 never happened. Willow whom I knew wouldn't have had an affair with Exposition Snake or lied to Buffy to save magic. The current version is like a completely different character that I have very little interest in. And not because I don't like the idea of Willow being a witch, it's just that the execution is so sloppy, I'd rather watch the worst episodes of "Charmed" rather than say "Wrecked".



I just want Willow to have something else in her life, not just magic. Is that too much to ask for?

Charmed its been forever that I've seen that referenced but that was a very good show as well. Also I agree the execution is sloppy, but I don't think the writers ever meant for everyone to think that Willow this season is season 6, she's far from that. I think Willow can something in her life besides magic, but I don't think she can either have magic or have nothing else I kinda think her character tends to be more complex than that, or at least more strong than that, where she is forced to just have one or other. Willow for many seaons has been a witch, and remained Willow. Remeber Xander's talk in Grave, he told her he love her no matter what form of Willow she is, she's still Willow. Season 8 Willow's wants to have a child, she wants to have a normal life,she doesn't just want to be a force, but she also got spiritually connected to the Earth and the slayers in season 7 which is a huge part of why she was screaming in issue#39, not just about her own powers. Willow I don't think would want to have a normal life if it was at the expense of another which this version of a normal life comes at the price of people she cares about, slayers, wiccans, and others. I'm rambling, but I don't think Willow hasn't moved past the point where she can be Willow and still be the witch that she was in earlier seasons. I think Willow still cares about Kennedy its her insecuries are behind the breakup than anything else and I think maybe they might work it out in season 9, and I don't think Kennedy is that shallow, which I think is understandable she had just been traumatized in a huge way, she is struggling for her identity again, and on top of that she is worried about this great new world will cost others that aren't her, I think if she is worried about a soulless world that it might be more than just her own magic. Also the reference in issue#40 that Buffy brings up season 6 Willow, makes me wonder if Buffy thought that destroying the seed was a way to prevent FDW. Also in Charmed the sisters found they didn't have to give up a version of normal life while losing the other side of themselves, so I believe Willow can do the same, she doesn't have to choose, and I don't think she would choose this version if it came at the price of the slayer line that Willow calls the slayers 'our girl's' in season 8.

 

[Sommers Summers]

As for Giles leaving all his stuff to Faith, well, Buffy has a huge support system. She has a family that will be there for her no matter what. Faith does not. Anyways, I don't see why Faith wouldn'tdeserve it. Buffy has kept Giles cut off for a while now, but he and Faith have been very close this season. She has been his Slayer. I don't think it's a matter of "deserving" it any way. It's who would need it more. Buffy has Xander, Dawn, Willow, Spike, Angel and many more all looking out for her, ready to support her if she needs it. Now that Giles is gone Faith really doesn't have anyone.

Yep, that's my point.

Maybe he changed his mind after Buffy proved how moronically suicidal her blind faith in Spike was.

Good idea.

And to whoever disagreed with my point that "Buffy loving a vampire is nonsense", read the title of the series again, then tell me.

Seducing them is one thing, falling head over heels in love with 'em is another.

 

[white avenger]

As for Giles leaving all his stuff to Faith, well, Buffy has a huge support system. She has a family that will be there for her no matter what.

But does she, really? Willow is at the very least miffed, if not downright pissed off at her for taking away all of the magic. Dawn and Xander are letting her stay with them on what is obviously a temporary basis, and are certainly still friendly toward her, but the "being there for her, no matter what" part, I have my doubts about. We've already seen back in Season 7 that they most certainly were NOT always "there for her, no matter what." Right, wrong, or indifferent, they threw her out of her home.

Buffy's biggest support through the entire series, the one thing that set her apart from all of the other Slayers throughout history, was her friends, but by her own admission, the Scoobies no longer exist. Her Slayer army is disbanded, in hiding, and, as far as we have seen so far, blaming her for all of their misfortunes (am I the only one who wonders if that includes Satsu and a few other of her closest teammates?). Her two fathers, one biological and one figurative, are no longer "there" for her. Angel is basically one step removed from a head of cabbage.nd even if he were back to himself, has way too many of his own troubles to be able to help Buffy with hers. Riley has apparently gone back to Iowa, Sam, and his corn fields. Just who does that leave to be "there for her, no matter what?"

Maybe Faith, since we saw them becoming more friendly during their time together in Tibet, but I'm not certain that she plans to be around very much, what with the London flat, the country property, and, most especially, the horses.

The only one Buffy really, definitely has covering her back, is Spike, and he apparently doesn't patrol with her anymore, at least not that we've seen so far.

From what I can tell from reading Issue #40, it's pretty much just Buffy and Mr Pointy against the world.

Kinda bleak, ain't it?

 

[The Unspoken]

But does she, really? Willow is at the very least miffed, if not downright pissed off at her for taking away all of the magic. Dawn and Xander are letting her stay with them on what is obviously a temporary basis, and are certainly still friendly toward her, but the "being there for her, no matter what" part, I have my doubts about. We've already seen back in Season 7 that they most certainly were NOT always "there for her, no matter what." Right, wrong, or indifferent, they threw her out of her home.

Uhm...hyperbole much? The Scoobies have always been critical of Buffy's decisions - as they should - and seeing as how Dawn and Xander have been Buffy's biggest emotional support throughout season 8, I'd say 'Empty Places' is a footnote in history.

 

[WakingNightmare]

Kinda bleak, ain't it?

Very bleak. Still... maybe Faith and Buffy can just be there for each other (sw)

 

[white avenger]

I'd say 'Empty Places' is a footnote in history.

So's the Alamo, but I still remember it.

Seriously, though, i doubt that something like that could ever be completely forgotten. But my point is that all of the people who Buffy has depended upon for the last 8 years seem to have gone their separate ways. Even Dawn and Xander seem to have , or are in the process of, building their own lives outside of the demon fighting business. They can't really be "there" for Buffy the way that they have been in the past. In Sunnydale, their entire lives practically revolved around helping Buffy guard and control the hellmouth. Now, Giles is gone, and the rest of the Scoobies are apparently and understandably doing the most that they can to become, finally, normal people. They're still Buffy's friends, but that "Three Musketeers" bond simply isn't there anymore.

 

[Icarium]

In Sunnydale, their entire lives practically revolved around helping Buffy guard and control the hellmouth.

No, they all had normal lives and also helped the fight against evil. They can still do that if the writers take their heads out of their asses. Anyway, I am pretty sure that the Scoobies will be back to being best of buds when the plot demands it and will hate it each other when the plot says so. The show stopped being character driven like a decade ago.

I'm rambling, but I don't think Willow hasn't moved past the point where she can be Willow and still be the witch that she was in earlier seasons.

In theory she hasn't but I don't think the writers have any interest whatsoever in Willow's non-magical life. The stupid Future Dark Willow plot pretty much proves that.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

The show stopped being character driven like a decade ago.

Well, the premise was all geared and centered around High School. I do not believe it played as well once they graduated. The issues and drama is just too different, and while the characters aged, the story did not age as well. It was never an 'adult' show (unlike angel) even in the final seasons. But while that concept worked and seemed plausible in high school, it never did afterwards. So yeah, I do think its WYSIWYG in terms of the characters. There really has been no growth (save for Spike) since High School. (at least none I readily see)