Discussion of 8.40 "Coda" - Released 1/19/11 (Dark Horse)

[The Unspoken]

Well, the premise was all geared and centered around High School. I do not believe it played as well once they graduated. The issues and drama is just too different, and while the characters aged, the story did not age as well. It was never an 'adult' show (unlike angel) even in the final seasons. But while that concept worked and seemed plausible in high school, it never did afterwards. So yeah, I do think its WYSIWYG in terms of the characters. There really has been no growth (save for Spike) since High School. (at least none I readily see)

The show didn't stop being the subject of academic studies after the high school years had ended.

And Buffy was never supposed to be like Angel - it's more camp, for starters. Doesn't mean it's not an adult show.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

The show didn't stop being the subject of academic studies after the high school years had ended.

Did I say it did?

And Buffy was never supposed to be like Angel - it's more camp, for starters. Doesn't mean it's not an adult show.

No, camp doesnt mean its not an adult show; how the character act, interact and relate to one another does. There were a few times where it felt like the series could grow up, but it never really did. I think that was due in large part to it being more comedic than drama/horror, as comedies live in that protective bubble as well.

 

[Icarium]

I think the show was quite "adult" in its first four seasons and the characters only started to become immature caricatures when the writers tried to make the series darker and edgier. Rather ironic twist of fate, IMO.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I dunno.. maybe it was just the age in which the show was watched that was clouding judgement. Then and now, it never really felt like an adult show. Supernatural does, Buffy didn't/doesn't. But I never watched that Veronica Mars for the same reasons and I have heard good things about that.

 

[Tina3]

Selfish actions?! Do you mean it is a selfish action to fight against all odds to reaffirm human will, willing to die in the process? It is selfish when your friends has been asked to vote as a team? And how could he know LA should have been sent in hell? Truth is Buffy has always got a free card while Angel not.

Angel started down a bad road the second he took WR&H CEO position. He could have had Connor's memory wiped another way and not wipe the mind of his team as well, but I think he knew his team would find it morally wrong to do so, hence why he went behind their backs in the first place. I mean when you think about it, all WR&H needed to do was wipe Connor's memory, they didn't need to wipe Angel's team as well, that was Angel's decision and it was very wrong of him to do so.

By the time he gave his team a choice in regards to the Black Thorn, he'd already started everything and it was in the final hour he told them his game plan. Again he didn't discuss it with his team until it was too late for them to really do anything except back him up. The choice he gave his team was either help me fight what I've started, or walk out and never see me again. Some choice. Of course Angel knew that LA was going to go to hell, that was why everyone was meeting up at the Hyperion. He knew the SP were not going to let him get away with taking out their top people in LA without sending an army after them.

Just like Angel didn't give Buffy a choice in regards to having the day taken back, he just had it done all on his own and told her a minute before it was going to happen. Just like he fired his team when they disagreed about Darla.

Angel is very consistent in making decisions and not discussing it with anybody until it is already too late to change the road he's chosen. What he did with Twilight doesn't seem much different. He was given information, regardless of if it was false or not, and made the decision to go down that road without discussing it with people.

One of the many reasons I don't like Angel being in a position to hold any kind of power is that he can't be trusted with that power. Angel needs to have a team around him where everyone hears a plan and agrees on a strategy before any type of action is taken. To give Angel power to make decisions without anybody to check his actions just leads to disaster. He doesn't have the moral compass and has proved time and again that his decisions, while may be honorable, are almost never for the best.

He may have had that soul of his for 100+ years, but sitting around in an alley sucking rat blood didn't give him what is needed to use that soul correctly. Many people claim that Angel is the Champion for TPTB and I have a real problem with the shows stating that. The SLAYER is the Champion, she is specifically CHOSEN by them. Angel was just picked up off an alley after brooding for 100 years after being cursed. How is that a Champion?

 

[cordangel]

You can state all you want but BtVS s2 (Whistler sent to Angel), s3 (Angel comes back from Hell, snow fall so Angel can't killed himself) five deasons of AtS (Doyle sent to him by TPtB, the Oracles, TPTB and SP trying to have him on their side, the Shanshu prophecy and the SP attempt to take it away from him in the very last episode, Cordelia being able to come back to help her guy) and the comics AtF (he can't even die and because the SP can't allow his death, they are forced to free LA from hell) speak volumes about Angel championship. There have been many slayers in the centuries, Buffy is THE slayer because she's smartest, strongest, bravest...she's the best in a long series, but there is just one chosen at the highest levels, and it is Angel.

 

[zobothehobo]

You can state all you want but BtVS s2 (Whistler sent to Angel), s3 (Angel comes back from Hell, snow fall so Angel can't killed himself) five deasons of AtS (Doyle sent to him by TPtB, the Oracles, TPTB and SP trying to have him on their side, the Shanshu prophecy and the SP attempt to take it away from him in the very last episode, Cordelia being able to come back to help her guy) and the comics AtF (he can't even die and because the SP can't allow his death, they are forced to free LA from hell) speak volumes about Angel championship. There have been many slayers in the centuries, Buffy is THE slayer because she's smartest, strongest, bravest...she's the best in a long series, but there is just one chosen at the highest levels, and it is Angel.

I'm sorry but this is what I see from your examples of Angel's championship. (admittedly Doyle and Cordy are a bit of a stretch... well Doyle is)

Whisler sent to Angel - he needs someone to tell him to fight the good fight. He doesn't just want to do it. He also needs convincing and in this bit he's kind of really pathetic.

Snow falls so he can't kill himself - he'd rather kill himself in Amends than try to be a champion. He'd rather kill himself than try to fight for good.

Doyle sent by the PtB - Again he needs help 'cause he can't be a champion on his own

Cordy coming back to help - I'm going to assume you're talking about Your Welcome. She comes back because he's about to lose himself completely. He's so unstable.

 

[Tina3]

You can state all you want but BtVS s2 (Whistler sent to Angel), s3 (Angel comes back from Hell, snow fall so Angel can't killed himself) five deasons of AtS (Doyle sent to him by TPtB, the Oracles, TPTB and SP trying to have him on their side, the Shanshu prophecy and the SP attempt to take it away from him in the very last episode, Cordelia being able to come back to help her guy) and the comics AtF (he can't even die and because the SP can't allow his death, they are forced to free LA from hell) speak volumes about Angel championship. There have been many slayers in the centuries, Buffy is THE slayer because she's smartest, strongest, bravest...she's the best in a long series, but there is just one chosen at the highest levels, and it is Angel.

The Slayer is TPTB Champions, they have been for thousands of years. Angel has been, supposedly, their Champion for all of 8 years. I wasn't just talking about Buffy being TPTB Champion, I was talking about Slayers in general as they are CHOSEN and CALLED. IMO Angel is a pawn in a game between TPTB and the SP, but TPTB have to get him off his butt multiple times to actually do good. They call him a Champion in the hopes that he'll actually be one and fight for their side instead of wallowing in self-pity.

 

[Icarium]

The SLAYER is the Champion, she is specifically CHOSEN by them.

Huh? Are the Powers even mentioned in BtVS? And we saw how the Slayer line was created - by men, not gods. There is no indication whatsoever that Potentials and Slayers are picked in anything but a totally random manner.

Angel is very consistent in making decisions and not discussing it with anybody until it is already too late to change the road he's chosen. What he did with Twilight doesn't seem much different.

The plan involved the deliberate killing of many innocent people. This seems like a major difference to me.

 

[cordangel]

As Icarium stated, men created the slayers line, not higher powers. Do you remember Giles or anyone else have ever mentioned TPTB? Or the word 'champion'? It and they (The Powers) are present in AtS.

I don't like s5 too much, but there's a clear difference between this season and Twilight.
After all a lot of people, included me, have been saying for months 'Joss ruined Angel'. Twilight is a non sense for a man...pire who, as Cordelia stated, always tried to save every single person in the world. A man...pire who signed away his Sanshu in the very last episode and in the very first season chose to be a vampire again to prevent Buffy's death and to help humanity against the forces of evil. And as Twilight he chooses paradise with Buffy?! Send an army against the Slayers?!

All members of AI voted for his plan. Spike was the first. You can't forget it. And the reunion at the Hyperion didn't mean he knew LA was going to go to hell. 'He knew the SP were not going to let him get away with taking out their top people in LA without sending an army after them' . Precisely: not going to let HIM away...sending an army after THEM. This has nothing to do with LA in hell.

 

[Tina3]

Icarium,

Yes the Shadowmen created the First Slayer but some POWER continued the line from there. If the Watchers had a choice as to who the power would go to when a Slayer died, they wouldn't have chosen someone like Buffy or Faith, so it obviously wasn't them making the choice. Who was it? It has to be a POWER and I don't believe it's random.

Slayers are "called/chosen" to battle against vampires, demons, and other forces of darkness. She is the CHOSEN one. It is a call by fate, or at least that is how they make it seem throughout the whole series. Multiple times Buffy has said it's her "destiny" her "calling" and that she was "chosen" not that she was given a choice in it. Giles also says the same types of things, so it seems pretty self explanatory that Slayers are called by a higher power for good (TPTB).

In regards to Angel/Twilight, I still don't see this as being too far off from where his character has been heading for quite a long time. He's told that if he doesn't do this things will be even worse. In his mind killing some people for the greater good isn't a bad thing. In ATS 5 we see him allowing demons get away with horrendous actions because it fits in with his plan to take out the Black Thorn.

Cordangel,

Like I stated before, Angel allowed his team to vote when he was in the final leg of his plan. He had already done everything except the actual killing of the top brass in the Black Thorn. He needed his team to help him achieve that final action with him. That isn't really a choice at that point. A choice would have been for him to tell his team what he wanted to do before even starting down that road and all/most of them agreeing with the plan. There was no agreement at the end, it was more a "well, he's already done it, might as well help him finish it off". Yes Spike was the first to agree to help Angel, but it wasn't like Angel could have backed out of the Black Thorn at that point so it was either help him kill them or allow Angel to be taken even further into their grasp.

LA going to Hell, maybe not as badly as it did, but it is very reasonable to think that there was NO WAY they would be able to kill off that army that they knew would be heading their way completely. You had 3 super-powered fighters, 2 humans, and an Empath Demon. Angel knew Lorne wasn't going to be showing up, so really all he had for the actual big fight would have been 3 sp fighters and 2 humans, which he didn't even have that with Wesley dying and Gunn showing up already badly hurt.

It was a suicide mission with the hopes of taking out as many as they could in the meantime. WR&H LA wasn't the only branch, Angel knew this. Getting rid of that one branch wasn't going to do as much good as he pretended it would. Considering how that branch bounced back fairly quickly after The Beast, does he really think just getting rid of the Black Thorn LA version was going to be as big a deal as he was making it out to be?

IMO Angel gave up. He knew he took a bad deal by joining the company and figured this was his only way out, so he took it.

 

[Icarium]

Yes the Shadowmen created the First Slayer but some POWER continued the line from there.

Says who?

If the Watchers had a choice as to who the power would go to when a Slayer died, they wouldn't have chosen someone like Buffy or Faith, so it obviously wasn't them making the choice. Who was it? It has to be a POWER and I don't believe it's random.

You are free to believe whatever you want but it would be nice if you could support that belief with textual examples.

It is a call by fate, or at least that is how they make it seem throughout the whole series.

That's because they don't know either until Buffy meets the Shadowmen.

Multiple times Buffy has said it's her "destiny" her "calling" and that she was "chosen" not that she was given a choice in it.

See above. Plus, it's a figure of speech too. When in real life we say that "X was chosen to do [insert heroic deed here]", we don't always mean that he was literally chosen. Sometimes it's meant that he was in the right place at the right time. Also, if the Powers are doing the choosing they are doing a really lousy job considering they picked Faith...

In regards to Angel/Twilight, I still don't see this as being too far off from where his character has been heading for quite a long time. He's told that if he doesn't do this things will be even worse.

Yes, he is told and somehow he completely buys that nonsense hook, line and sinker. When one does bad things for "the greater good", they need to be really sure what they are doing is really necessary. Angel just listens to the incredibly far-fetched story of a talking dog and is all ready to don the mask and murder. I just don't buy that and I don't even like Angel.

 

[zobothehobo]

Says who?

Says logic.

See above. Plus, it's a figure of speech too. When in real life we say that "X was chosen to do [insert heroic deed here]", we don't always mean that he was literally chosen. Sometimes it's meant that he was in the right place at the right time. Also, if the Powers are doing the choosing they are doing a really lousy job considering they picked Faith...

While I'm not a Faith fan... far from it... I'm having trouble figuring out if your serious. Faith and Buffy were't just chosen to slay... they were BORN to slay. No one knows for sure because it was never explained by the text, although the best explanation I can come up with is that when a potential slayer is born, she has an order. "when this slayer dies, that one will be called, and then that one" until they become too old and they "expire." Buffy was born to be a slayer just like every other potential. When the slayer before Buffy died, and she came up in the order of things she became slayer. then Kendra, then Faith, then everyone. But the order has to be decided some how. I'm not sure it's by age... I mean wasn't Faith older than Buffy? Also I'm pretty sure the order isn't concrete until it happens. But somehow the order has to be decided. Logic tells us there's some mystical power making the decision.

 

[Tina3]

That's because they don't know either until Buffy meets the Shadowmen.

I didn't take that scene to mean the Shadowmen control the whole Slayer line, just that they created the First Slayer and had the ability, through their device, to have a Slayer go back in time to be extra-powered up when it became necessary. For all we know, the Shadowmen only exist in the past and the portal Buffy went through brought her back to them, not to some place they were at in the present. When Buffy speaks to the Guardian regarding the Scythe, the Guardian even says the Shadowmen went on to become the first Watchers while they were watching the Watchers. From many of the accounts we've seen of Watchers in the series, they don't hold the power that the Shadowmen had, many were just pompous bureaucrats.

I wonder where the Slayer dreams come from, as they are like visions, if not from a Higher Power for Good. The Slayer normally wouldn't need to have a Seer like Doyle/Cordy is for Angel's group considering the Slayer herself gets these visionary dreams directly. So if the Slayer isn't the Champion for TPTB, where do these visions come from?

 

[Icarium]

For all we know, the Shadowmen only exist in the past and the portal Buffy went through brought her back to them, not to some place they were at in the present.

They don't need to exist in the present for the spell to continue to work and pick Slayers at random.

When Buffy speaks to the Guardian regarding the Scythe, the Guardian even says the Shadowmen went on to become the first Watchers while they were watching the Watchers. From many of the accounts we've seen of Watchers in the series, they don't hold the power that the Shadowmen had, many were just pompous bureaucrats.

I never claimed the Watchers had that power. My impression is that Slayers are chosen at random and the Watchers have simply forgotten all about the origin of the Slayer line.

Logic tells us there's some mystical power making the decision.

It does? I can say the same for say the lottery numbers in real life and have about as much evidence as you have that the Powers That Be choose the next Slayer. And I don't think it makes much sense from a thematic point of view. For all the talk about being "chosen" Buffy represents the ordinary person who is forced into extraordinary situation by virtue of pure blind luck. If she is specifically picked by some god because said entity thinks Buffy is the best for the job the story loses much of its strength, IMO.

 

[The Unspoken]

I always thought that the Shadow Men simply made it so that when the (first) Slayer died, her essence would be transferred over to another girl at random. I don't see any canonical indication of a higher power selecting these girls. And why would a higher power choose just girls? The Shadow Men purposely chose a girl because they thought a girl would have a 'softer' personality than a guy and would therefore be easier to control. Or that's implied, at least.

 

[Tina3]

They don't need to exist in the present for the spell to continue to work and pick Slayers at random.



I never claimed the Watchers had that power. My impression is that Slayers are chosen at random and the Watchers have simply forgotten all about the origin of the Slayer line.



It does? I can say the same for say the lottery numbers in real life and have about as much evidence as you have that the Powers That Be choose the next Slayer. And I don't think it makes much sense from a thematic point of view. For all the talk about being "chosen" Buffy represents the ordinary person who is forced into extraordinary situation by virtue of pure blind luck. If she is specifically picked by some god because said entity thinks Buffy is the best for the job the story loses much of its strength, IMO.

My point was that we are never told the spell the Shadowmen used would also continue the line with random choices being made, we are only told/shown that they used a spell to create the First Slayer.

It's obvious that the Watcher's have some way of keeping an eye on who can become a Slayer as some potentials lived with their Watchers and not with their families (Kendra is a perfect example), but there were others, like Buffy, that had potential and never was noticed by the Council until they were called. Just like Amanda didn't know anything and she grew up in Sunnydale. You'd think the Council would have had her with a Watcher if they knew they had a potential on the hellmouth while there was an active Slayer there. That leads me to believe that there has to be some POWER involved in making the choices of whom the best Slayer out of all potential options should be Called at a given time.

I don't think it ruins the story at all if it is a Power and not random just because Buffy doesn't like being Chosen. Obviously there was something about Buffy that was needed at that time that any other potential didn't have so she was picked. Like Spike had said, her love of her family and friends grounded her like no other Slayer he'd ever seen and made her the toughest for him to fight. If anything having it be a random choice would make the story worse IMO as that would mean she wasn't Chosen because of anything in her but just because of sheer dumb luck. I didn't like it when Anya said that in S7 and I still don't like that thought process.

I guess my whole thought process is that if you have a girl that is Chosen to fight the forces of darkness and protect humans not be an agent of TPTB, but you have a psychotic vampire that just happened to be CURSED with a Soul be an agent for them, then the whole story is ruined for me. If the Slayers aren't their Champions but a cursed vampire is, it kind of makes me sick to my stomach. If Angel was just another Champion, then fine, but him being the top brass Champion or only Champion of them just makes me wonder why. When Slayers have been fighting the good fight for thousands of years and this one vampire has only been fighting for a few, why wouldn't they have gotten involved sooner. I just don't buy it.

 

[Icarium]

It's obvious that the Watcher's have some way of keeping an eye on who can become a Slayer as some potentials lived with their Watchers and not with their families (Kendra is a perfect example), but there were others, like Buffy, that had potential and never was noticed by the Council until they were called. Just like Amanda didn't know anything and she grew up in Sunnydale. You'd think the Council would have had her with a Watcher if they knew they had a potential on the hellmouth while there was an active Slayer there. That leads me to believe that there has to be some POWER involved in making the choices of whom the best Slayer out of all potential options should be Called at a given time.

Or that, you know, the Watchers can't be everywhere and are not all-knowing.

I don't think it ruins the story at all if it is a Power and not random just because Buffy doesn't like being Chosen. Obviously there was something about Buffy that was needed at that time that any other potential didn't have so she was picked.

Obviously? Really? And what obvious quality did Faith have? Love of violence? What about Dana? You would think the Powers could have prevented her being a Potential at all.

Like Spike had said, her love of her family and friends grounded her like no other Slayer he'd ever seen and made her the toughest for him to fight.

Spike had no clue what the hell he was talking about. For all we know there could have been hundreds of Slayers with family and friends. Plus, if this "higher power" could pick the Slayers and wanted Slayers who have closer links to normal life why did they ever pick the Potentials whom the Watchers had identified and kept away from everything but training for the mission? Why did they pick Kendra? How were they able to pick Kendra at all as Buffy's death was merely a technicality? Why didn't they "power up" all the Potentials?

Personally I think the writers made things up as they went along so trying to make sense of it all is a bit of fool's errand but the random selection works betters as an explanation for me.

I didn't like it when Anya said that in S7 and I still don't like that thought process.

Anya has been round for more than a millennium. I am probably giving the writers more credit than they deserve, but if she thinks Buffy got her powers at random they she might know what she is talking about.

I guess my whole thought process is that if you have a girl that is Chosen to fight the forces of darkness and protect humans not be an agent of TPTB, but you have a psychotic vampire that just happened to be CURSED with a Soul be an agent for them, then the whole story is ruined for me. If the Slayers aren't their Champions but a cursed vampire is, it kind of makes me sick to my stomach.

Only if you think of the Powers as a source of pure good and not gods in the sense of say Zeus - i.e. capricious creatures who like to mess around. I mean, I haven't rewatched AtS in a while but if the Powers are such shining example of goodness all they do it is send a few visions and pick the Slayers - well they are doing a really lousy job. But if they sometimes help people on a whim to avoid boredom then it makes more sense. Or maybe they just needed Angel to fulfil some prophecy they care about and that "champion" thing was merely their PR at work. 🙂

 

[white avenger]

Reading through this discussion, it seems pretty clear that what we DON'T know about Slayers could fill volumes. Basically, we know, or at least have been led to believe, that a group of magicians or sorcerers who called themselves the Shadow Men empowered, whether voluntarily or forcibly, a young woman and assigned her the mission of hunting and killing vampires and demons. Beyond that, everything is pretty much conjecture.

We have no real idea:

Why a girl was chosen and not a boy.

Why there was only one girl at a time empowered.

Why (or how) that empowerment was passed on to a successor at her death.

How (or why) Potentials are designated

How (or why) a particular Potential is chosen to become the next Slayer.

What happens to Potentials who are never chosen.

Why there are Slayer Dreams.

How the Watchers are able to identify certain Potentials and are able to locate new Slayers almost as soon as they are Called.

Why are there hellmouths and is there any pattern as to their location.

Whether or not the Slayers are influenced by or serve any Higher Power, whether that be the Powers That Be, or some other being.

Why Buffy's mother was apparently manipulated into moving to Sunnydale so that Buffy could patrol and guard the hellmouth, whereas former Slayers seemed to more or less roam the world, fighting demons and vampires wherever they happened to encounter them.

And I'm sure that I've missed quite a few others.

My point is, Joss seems to have deliberately kept all of that information intentionally obscure, almost certainly so that it won't interfere with any future story lines that he might come up with.

In the meantime, all that we can do is theorize, guess, and conjecture.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

While it's a fan creation and not canon, here's a really good job of creating a history for the Watchers' Council and the Slayers, from the Shadowmen to the present time. It's in six parts, starting here:

The History of the Watchers' Council