Discussion of Angel & Faith 9.03 "Live Through This 3"- Released 10/26/11 (Dark Horse

Icarium

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So the Slayers don't kill vampires who are not breaking "Harmony's rules" and are "just nibbling on goth wannabes". What. The. ****. That's stupid on so many levels. Why the hell should vampires care about this rules? And why would Slayers believe that this is not just an act? It's the vamp ho nonsense all over again...

Oh, and Slayers want to fight so much that they go pick fights with football fans in bars. But that's a normal part of being a Slayer, says Faith. We have missed so much potential for wacky hijinks over the years with Buffy being so unnaturally restrained about using her powers, I guess...

At least Angel finally got a clue when he thought that every time the bill for his sins come up, someone else pays. If they follow on this properly, I would be willing to overlook everything else but I doubt it, soon there will be some new excuse for Angel, I am sure of that.
 
Well, Buffy was killing vampires on a daily basis to release her Slayer energy, and the new Slayers apparently don't have that option. I'm sure they'd love to be killing every vampire they see regardless of Harmony's rules, but based on what Buffy's currently dealing with in her own series, they might have decided as a team that it's best for now to just pick off the ones posing a danger to society - which would also lead the vampires to decide that it's best to just not be a danger to society.

I'm still liking the way Faith and Angel interact here but I wish the story had jumped a little farther ahead. Reading the blurbs for the future issues in advance makes me impatient to get to the parts that they describe.
 
I'm sure they'd love to be killing every vampire they see regardless of Harmony's rules, but based on what Buffy's currently dealing with in her own series, they might have decided as a team that it's best for now to just pick off the ones posing a danger to society - which would also lead the vampires to decide that it's best to just not be a danger to society.

But the vampires can't decide that. That's why they are killed in the first place. If they could be relied upon to control themselves to only take enough blood to survive, there wouldn't be need to persecute them. I know the idea is that they do it out of fear but still, what's stopping the vamps from going somewhere where there are no Slayers or much in the way of authorities and kill some people?
 
But the vampires can't decide that. That's why they are killed in the first place. If they could be relied upon to control themselves to only take enough blood to survive, there wouldn't be need to persecute them. I know the idea is that they do it out of fear but still, what's stopping the vamps from going somewhere where there are no Slayers or much in the way of authorities and kill some people?

Angel and Spike can control themselves enough to not drink human blood at all, and their predatory impulses are just as strong as a standard vampire's; they just have a good reason to restrain themselves. Other vamps don't have a conscience but they do have intellect, and they'd be able to see that Harmony's publicity stunts have made the public like them, and that if they were to undermine it with wanton killing, they'd lose that.

I'm sure that there are indeed places without Slayers or authorities where vampires are still killing, but those are the places that aren't being represented by the media, so nobody factors them into the equation.

If I were a vampire in the post-magic world, I feel like I'd probably jump on the chance to eat regularly and feel reasonably safe from Slayers in exchange for curtailing my bloodlust. I don't actually have any bloodlust so I don't know for sure, but it still seems fair enough to assume that a significant chunk of the vampire population is playing along.
 
Other vamps don't have a conscience but they do have intellect, and they'd be able to see that Harmony's publicity stunts have made the public like them, and that if they were to undermine it with wanton killing, they'd lose that.

But some of them would be killing anyway, so more than six months after Harmony made the big reveal, you would think the public would have realised they are monsters after all. And the Slayers should know better than wait for proof that the vamp is currently killing before staking them. I doubt they hunt them where the average Joe can see anyway, so the excuse that the public thinks vamps are cuddly doesn't really matter.

If I were a vampire in the post-magic world, I feel like I'd probably jump on the chance to eat regularly and feel reasonably safe from Slayers in exchange for curtailing my bloodlust. I don't actually have any bloodlust so I don't know for sure, but it still seems fair enough to assume that a significant chunk of the vampire population is playing along.

But vampires don't keel just because they need blood, they do it for fun. Remember when Spike tried to kill himself because he missed killing so much?
 
Great issue, I liked that the story is actually moving. Christos Gage really has a great handle on Faith, she has some great dialogue in this episode. And the last page?? Epic, can't wait for issue 4. My only complaint is the preview said we would be getting Angel reflecting on his early LA days, I was hoping for a reference to one of the Fang Gang

Angel and Faith keeps getting better. Unlike Buffy, which is nowhere as good
 
T
The Scourge
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But the vampires can't decide that. That's why they are killed in the first place. If they could be relied upon to control themselves to only take enough blood to survive, there wouldn't be need to persecute them. I know the idea is that they do it out of fear but still, what's stopping the vamps from going somewhere where there are no Slayers or much in the way of authorities and kill some people?

I think the problem with all of this is Harmony. I mean, not just because she's an irritating reality star who gets people to sympathize with vampires. That's ridiculous, sure. But ever since they started showing that she could restrain herself with no soul, no real intellect, and no real motivation for doing so other than a job, (how silly. It's Harmony, and she's a vampire, does she really want to work that badly?), they made the very foundation of what it means to be a vampire completely invalid, or at least unexplained. So now, if Harmony can control herself, ok--we are forced to believe that all of these other vamps can. Which should make pulling vamps out of graves and staking them on spot a huge no-no, both now and in the past...And should make Buffy, who's always had a pretty strong personal moral code, really start to question things. I feel like everything's been turned on its head, and we're not in on it...
 
brinkster130
brinkster130
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That's just the thing - if they want to change the mythology, fine. I will grumble but I will live with that, since the worldbuilding was never all that consistent in the first place. Making all these changes - first Spike and the vamp prostitutes, then Harmony and other W&H employees and still no main character being bothered in the slightest as they all continue to gleefully kill vampires and demons is just sloppy and lazy. I loved how in Disharmony they showed how all the support in the world couldn't stop Harmony from backstabbing Cordelia, now they are going with the exact opposite approach.

Would it be too much to ask for a bit of consistency? Or at least for some glimpse of what the average Joe thinks of vampires and demons or what the average vamp thinks of Harmony and her rules? I can't help but think that the writers didn't really think this "demons and vampires into the open" thing through. If the plot said it's okay for the demons to be killed, they get killed, when it says it's not okay, they get spared.
 
T
The Scourge
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BuffyElevated
BuffyElevated
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VisionGirl
VisionGirl
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Would it be too much to ask for a bit of consistency? Or at least for some glimpse of what the average Joe thinks of vampires and demons or what the average vamp thinks of Harmony and her rules? I can't help but think that the writers didn't really think this "demons and vampires into the open" thing through. If the plot said it's okay for the demons to be killed, they get killed, when it says it's not okay, they get spared.

Exactly. And for someone who loves Spike's story so much it's even more frustrating; he's supposed to be the exception; the one demon who can resist his nature and decide to be good. And they developed that story in a way which I (and a lot of fans) accepted as well-earned over many seasons. But, as you said, arbitrarily declaring that x-vamp can control itself and y-demon is good for the sake of the writers' whims, is just nonsense.

I thought they did it a lot in Angel, (to the point that the gang accepted jobs from demons needing assistance without assuming that said demons might want to kill them), and now everything is completely all over the place.

So now I feel like the value of my favorite heroes has been diminished. Buffy's ethics are now called into question, (but not by her), Spike's story means less, and so does Angel's. I think the writers really need to take a step back and start setting some rules so that everything that they established in the past doesn't start becoming completely invalid and meaningless.
 
VisionGirl
VisionGirl
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In the very first panel of the issue, there's something disturbing about the content expression of that woman as the vampire sucks her blood. I know there's a lot of complains about the vampires' popularity and outing to the public, but I'm really glad we're going to explore that. I think this something that ought to happen sooner or later. Vampires and demons being nothing but a secret and people around the world being so in denial about it isn't realistic at all. Maggie's reality is taking over and metaphor is disappearing theory is very interesting and true, I can't wait to see where it is all going. Though I suspect we will be dealing with it in the Buffy book.

Was Faith's tone blamey or filled with gratitude when she said that because of Angel and Buffy they won't be having apocalypses? 'Cause that's a very good thing as far as I know: not having apocalypses. I think she was thanking him for it as she seemed to imply he and Buffy could be together as a reward, or was that what Angel thought she said? It's gonna be too much if Faith was thanking Angel for stopping the apocalypse in S8. And they say the Scoobies are the prime kings and queens of denial.

Shallow note: I LOVED seeing Angel and Faith in PJs – perhaps not Angel, but shirt and jeans are his home-clothes. Less superheroes, more regular people.

So, the issue is mostly talking about the downside of losing magic. Archmages, witches, slayers, demons all suffering and struggling to live like normal humans. I'm still undecided if that's a bad thing. Is that really worse than having apocalypses and world chaos? So far the loss of magic is only hurting individuals – and not in a critical way - but the world is a much safer and better place because of it IMO.

Hee, that was adorably funny, how Faith became the "grown up"! She's everybody's mother hen now. 😀

OMG! I didn't recognize Faith in a dress! I thought she was a different woman until Angel pointed out that he, too, couldn't recognize her in a dress! Ha!!

Hmmm, I'm not so keen on Faith going behind Angel's back and making decisions for him. She wants to make him human for different reasons, not all in Angel's favor. I'm gonna wait and see how this turns out before making judgments.
 
At least Angel finally got a clue when he thought that every time the bill for his sins come up, someone else pays.

I haven't read this issue yet, but if Angel has finally learned that one little grain of truth, REALLY learned it, I think that he he actually will be further along down his personal road to redemption than he ever has been before. But then, despite everything else that might happen, one truth remains where Angel is concerned.

He's gonna screw it up again, as usual.
 
BuffyElevated
BuffyElevated
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Kean
Kean
He expresses this sentiment several times throughout the issue, at one stage insisting that what he deserves is a stake through the heart. No one knows the folly of Angel more than Angel himself.
Vampires and demons being nothing but a secret and people around the world being so in denial about it isn't realistic at all.

And this attitude changing because of Harmony's reality show is realistic? Realism aside, the secrecy was crucial to the premise because it explained why it was a bunch of teenagers/twenty-something people who had to save the world again and again. Let's say something really bad happens in S9 and the world is in danger once again - why would it be Buffy who would deal with it rather than some army? This was already problematic once The Initiative was introduced and now it just feels beyond ridiculous. Unless they go once again with "the government is evil and is after Buffy, the average Joe hates her too and nobody cares about saving the world except for her and the Scoobies", this issue would always be the elephant in the room, now that everybody knows about demons and vampires.

Though I suspect we will be dealing with it in the Buffy book.

I suspect we won't be dealing with it at all . Buffy needs someone to fight with and kill. Hence, there always be demons and vampires who serve that purpose. I really doubt she will stop and check if a vamp is truly 100% evil before slaying them.
 
Gum Gnome33
Gum Gnome33
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I stilol can't believe they had the general public be so accepting to vampires, demons and other monsters. That is so unrealistic. In fact, I think having Harmony as the face of the reveal would inspire more hatred than acceptance.

I don't usually want it, but this whole thing needs a ret-con or a Willow memory-wipe spell.
 
I'm still liking the way Faith and Angel interact here but I wish the story had jumped a little farther ahead. Reading the blurbs for the future issues in advance makes me impatient to get to the parts that they describe.
I feel like this too. I liked the issue well enough, but it seemed to lack meat. I did like the insight into Faith's thinking. And the reality of her "plan" to turn Angel back into human- wow, it seems as misguided as Angel's plan to resurrect Giles!

Would it be too much to ask for a bit of consistency? Or at least for some glimpse of what the average Joe thinks of vampires and demons or what the average vamp thinks of Harmony and her rules? I can't help but think that the writers didn't really think this "demons and vampires into the open" thing through. If the plot said it's okay for the demons to be killed, they get killed, when it says it's not okay, they get spared.
Firstly, I think the vampires being outed plotline is so unoriginal, and I've thought that since I first read it in season 8. I mean, it's like they stole it straight from Charlaine Harris' Sookie Stackhouse novels or from a True Blood episode! I'm just sitting here waiting to hear them talk about a synthetic blood substitute! and I'm not even sure how much I like it in that storyline, much less Buffy's.

I stilol can't believe they had the general public be so accepting to vampires, demons and other monsters. That is so unrealistic. In fact, I think having Harmony as the face of the reveal would inspire more hatred than acceptance.

I don't usually want it, but this whole thing needs a ret-con or a Willow memory-wipe spell.
Where's JJ Abrams when we need him? 😀
 
I'm too tired to write up anything resembling an actual review and I don't think I have anything to add that hasn't already been said. What I will say is that I cannot see any way in which Angel's story can progress without him becoming human this season. I will be incredibly disappointed if that doesn't happen.

Also, and this is very important, Angel wears waistcoats and dear lord does he wear them well.

tumblr_ln8wez26tP1qaw2n6o1_500.jpg


(sw)

The fact that this is now canon brings me MUCH joy.
 
Gum Gnome33
Gum Gnome33
eye candy karma
Taaroko
Taaroko
This picture! This is the picture I was thinking of from the moment Angel turned up at that party in a waistcoat. I love you so much for posting it.
brinkster130
brinkster130
pretty man!
white avenger
white avenger
Angel becoming human? Didn't they try that already?
What I will say is that I cannot see any way in which Angel's story can progress without him becoming human this season. I will be incredibly disappointed if that doesn't happen.

The problem that I see with that is that becoming human doesn't progress Angel's story, it ENDS it. Angel's story is about a man, formally so evil that he actually defined the term, trying to achieve some degree of redemption by fighting the very hing that he once was. That fight defines him, and without it, he can't exist. We've already seen in Season 1 that Angel is totally incapable of continuing that fight as a human, and I haven't seen any change in that over the years. Even in hell, when he continued to fight without his powers, he was only able to pull it off with the use of very specific, and very powerful, magic, not to mention a helluva lot of sheer dumb luck. Correct me if I'm wrong, but magic doesn't work in Buffy's world anymore, which pretty much eliminates the possibility of a super powered human.

Becoming human lowers Angel's status from one of the four most powerful fighters in the Buffyverse to someone who Xander could probably take with one eye closed, and I just can't see that happening until the last (soulless) vampire is staked in the last great battle of the last great apocalypse.

Having said all that, though, the image of Angel staying home to do the cooking and cleaning while Buffy and Spike are out fighting the good fight does kinda tickle my funny bone.
 
We already saw why Angel being human wouldn't work. On his own series. I don't see a need to rehash it again, especially since we all know he will be a vampire again a few issues later.
 
Angel's characterization didn't change at all in AtF and IWRY, so I'm not seeing how becoming human would move his character forward. With the demon side gone, he was basically exactly the same bloke. We'd see him struggling with strength and stamina issues (though as a human, he would still have alot to offer) as per AtF, but his guilt issues would still persist, moreso, I would think because he saw becoming human, as something he would need to earn/might never earn. To become human as a result of a large lapse in judgement, which Faith thinks he needs to be human to get over, would surely devastate him in the short term at least. In the long term, if he reaped benefits from becoming human, surely he couldn't enjoy said benefits, because of his guilt. I suppose Joss might be going for irony, but it all seems a bit knife-turning, somehow.
 
The problem that I see with that is that becoming human doesn't progress Angel's story, it ENDS it. Angel's story is about a man, formally so evil that he actually defined the term, trying to achieve some degree of redemption by fighting the very hing that he once was. That fight defines him, and without it, he can't exist. We've already seen in Season 1 that Angel is totally incapable of continuing that fight as a human, and I haven't seen any change in that over the years. Even in hell, when he continued to fight without his powers, he was only able to pull it off with the use of very specific, and very powerful, magic, not to mention a helluva lot of sheer dumb luck. Correct me if I'm wrong, but magic doesn't work in Buffy's world anymore, which pretty much eliminates the possibility of a super powered human.

What we saw is Angel at the start of his mission, inspired (and naive) by the cause and believing he can make a difference in a world where being a superhero made you better equipped to do that.

Today we have an Angel in a magicless world, where the rules have changed. Shanshu is no longer the light at the end of the tunnel but serves only to taunt and haunt him. I don't know if it means redemption to Angel any longer; I don't even think Angel believes in the idea of redemption at all. Least of all for him.

What becoming human would do for Angel, IMO, is break him out of the fail-redeem cycle he has been on since forever. As a human I believe there is less of a chance for Angel to get into these massive shitshow situations again. He can't continue to the verse's kicking boy. Not only that but in a magicless world continuing the good fight as a human would be a slightly less dangerous task than the last time he was made human.

The reasons for Angel not staying human in IWRY don't really apply anymore because that Angel and that time are gone forever.

Angel doesn't need to be a vampire to be a hero. He will still be the imposing, ballsy, fearless guy who bursts into rooms and breaks faces off his fists. He will still have over 250 years of experience of life, the supernatural and fighting. He will still try and do good works to the best of his abilities. He will still feel guilt for all he has done wrong. He'll still wear and black and sadly, he will still like Barry Manilow.

Being a vampire is not the sum of Angel. It is merely a part.

If he can adapt to having a soul, he can adapt to having a heartbeat.
 
Angel doesn't need to be a vampire to be a hero. He will still be the imposing, ballsy, fearless guy who bursts into rooms and breaks faces off his fists. He will still have over 250 years of experience of life, the supernatural and fighting. He will still try and do good works to the best of his abilities. He will still feel guilt for all he has done wrong. He'll still wear and black and sadly, he will still like Barry Manilow.

Being a vampire is not the sum of Angel. It is merely a part.

If he can adapt to having a soul, he can adapt to having a heartbeat.

But my point is, Angel WON'T be that "imposing, ballsy, fearless guy" anymore. As a human, he will be far less imposing, and common logic would dictate that, if he has any sanity at all, he will most certainly feel fear any time that he would confront things that, as a vampire, would have been little more than a nuisance. Fear is a common human trait. It can be accepted and worked past, but the fear always remains. Angel's two and a half centuries of experience may still be there, but any experience that he might have gained in fighting will be next to useless, because it is based on fighting with a level of strength, speed, and endurance that he no longer has. The fact is, as a human, Angel will have little or no more fighting experience than Xander, and most certainly less than Gunn or Riley. At the very best, or maybe worst, he will have the attitude of someone who was, literally, one of the four greatest fighters in the Buffyverse, but he simply won't have the ability to back up the experience. Visualize Angel trying to beat someone like Hamilton as a human, when he barely managed it as a vampire.

As a human, Angel would have to learn how to fight, or even survive in the supernatural world, all over again, just like Spike had to do while adjusting to the limitations imposed by his chip. Visualize Riley, crashing into an unchipped Spike's crypt and slamming him against a wall, or even throwing him out of Buffy's house. It took Spike months to first accept, and then adjust to the limitations of his new existence, and all that he had to adjust to was the fact that he could no longer fight or harm humans. Angel would have a far more difficult time learning how to fight demons whose power, relative to his own, would be far greater than Hamilton's ever was, and feeding off of their blood wouldn't do anything more than give him an upset stomach.

I'm in no way trying to say that Angel wouldn't want and try to continue to fight, I'm just saying that in order to do so with any agree of effectiveness, he is going to have to learn how to continue that fight with all of the limitations that any other human would have, and gaining the skill necessary to do that is going to take months, if not years. Add to that the fact that even once he masters that skill, he will never, ever, be able to be the fighter that he once was. How hard is that going to be. How is he going to react the first time that Buffy or Faith have to bail him out of a situation that he could have easily handled a year ago. How is he going to feel when Spike has to rescue him?

Becoming human is the end of Angel's quest, but in order to complete that quest, even if he ever is capable of doing so, will tale all of the strength, skill, and determination that he, as a vampire, can provide. Without that power, he simply won't be able to do it. And HE has to do it, alone, without relying on help from anyone else.
 
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