Discussion of Buffy 11.08 - Released 6/21/17 (Dark Horse)

[Priceless]

Angel's hubris played a part in how it was possible to convince him that he was destined for Twilight and his failure to consider how dreadful the plan was when it involved pulling Buffy down and making her vulnerable was bad. Warning bells should have been sounding loudly and he just

I think you are right, Angel was over confident and probably believed he knew the outcome before it even started. He had total faith that he could achieve what he'd set out to do, and a little humility would have gone a long way.

I do agree that he was manipulated, but the difference between that and being sired that we were discussing in the other thread is that he had opportunity to go away and look into it more, find out more, ask other people etc. When someone is being killed/sired by a vampire they are rarely even told what is happening from what we've seen. Certainly neither Liam nor William were given any opportunity to even hear what Dru/Darla intended for them, let alone walk away and reconsider. They didn't actually chose to go along with what was happening in any meaningful way.

I agree that Liam and William couldn't have all the facts or any comprehension of what they were letting themeselves in for. But I do feel that Angel was faced with the same issue, he couldn't comprehend the myriad ways Twilight would affect the world. He certainly didn't take into account Buffy's reaction to Twilight. I think one of the problems is that Twilight was based on some sort of prophecy and in this verse prophecies can be read a thousand different ways, and no amount of research could have covered all the possible outcomes.

I do agree though that Angel should be forgiven because I do think that, however foolish, he did believe that it was a greater good situation. But I still think of him as being culpable for getting involved in the situation. He should have questioned it because of what it involved, if for no other reason. It is somewhat different from Faith's mistakes because he was manipulated (although it has to be said the Mayor did a good job of making Faith feel separate to the others too), but his own character faults played a big part in how easy that was to do (like Faith's distrust/jealousies), so I don't think it can be seen to be totally out of his (or her!) hands, and I really don't think he (or she*) sees it like that either. I think Angel felt he needed forgiving in S9 when he was talking to Willow, even if he did still want to hold clear that he had thought it was the right thing to do at the time.

I think the differences between Angel and Faith are minimal in this situation, with Angel being maniuplated, and Faith possibly being groomed. But I feel both of their personalities were part of why they were played so easily by Twilight and The Mayor. Angel wanted to make amends for what he'd done and felt Twilight would give him that opportunity, to make a better world. And Faith wanted to be loved and respected and that's what The Mayor gave her.

(*Okay I talked myself around in a loop there, they both were manipulated and should both be forgiven as they have both seen their fault in it. 😀)

They are both forgivable in my eyes too, but I'm not Buffy and I totally understand why she finds it harder to forgive the girl who tried to kill her and her lover (Angel) and slept with her boyfriend and took over her body. Faith's attacks were personal, while Angel/Twilight's were more general, and she and Angel loved each other, while she and Faith only had bad history.

 

[gnarl]

I think the actions of faith, a Damaged teenager who was desperate for a sense of belonging and parental love are far more forgivable that the twilight incident.
I think, on some level, Angel has always been desperate for his journey to have some kind over aching meaning because if he has a destiny then it makes all the death that he caused and all the guilt he feels about it mean something. At the end of Angel (the series) when he signs away his right to the Sanshu prophecy I really though he had learned that lesson, that all he can do is try to do whats right, destiny be damned (I think the quote is "if nothing you do matters then all that matters I what you do"). I think his willingness to sacrifice millions of people to 'save the world' is another example of Angel clinging to the idea that he is at the centre of the worlds destiny (hubris is perhaps a good word).

I think Buffy and Faith have grown a degree of trust, I might go so far as to say that she trusts Faith judgement more than Angel at this point. She didn't seem angry with her at the start of Angel season 9 when she entrusted Angel to her care and Faith did come riding to the rescue in season 10 when they faced the new breed vamps (When Angel helped the Scoobies with the Archaus situation, Buffy had him teamed up with the magic users in case he lost control, a sign that although she had forgiven him she was perhaps not quite ready to trust him). Buffy and Faith may not be best of pals but just because they lead separate lives doesn't mean that they don't trust one another to do whats right, it feels like a professional relationship. They know that they are on the same team.

 

[Priceless]

Finally got my copy and you are all right, it was really good 🙂

It was great to see Dawn and Xander again, I have missed them, though it looks like we won't see Giles at all. Loving Buffy with a towel round her head, Xander playing Taylor Swift and the gang eating donuts, I'm a sucker for all these little domestic bits.

Buffy fighting the MMA guy was brave and foolhardy. What if he'd done some real damage and she wouldn't be able to complete her mission? Without powers, she has to learn to pick her fights. Sam should just back off, Buffy really doesn't have to justify anything to her! I would imagine Buffy couldn't even put her feelings into words, this season has been incredibly emotional for her.

I'd like to think Calliope was really happy to see Willow, but with the drones flying by and her girlfriend right there, she couldn't react as she'd want to. I'm still holding out for a big Williope romance 🙂

The Buffy/Willow love was nice. They have become close again in this season and it's lovely to see they support. Also good to see Dawn making her own decisions, though after S10 I'm surprised anyone would treat her like a child anymore.

Faith's entrance was really well done, with her hopping from drone to drone and leaping through the window. It speaks to her character that she chose to join the fight without being asked. She deserves the scythe and the friendship.

Great issue and you were right @Foxy I didn't miss Spike at all 🙂

 

[DarkGoddess]

I just like to say that I'm an on-and-off reader of the comics, having a hard time to get into them
BUT
This issue... I loved the art, dialog... it was interesting and got me excited to read and wait for the next one!

I don't know, I'm a very visual person, so I think the art this season is waaay more appealing to me than any other season.

 

[Blair]

Okay first of all- finally we get to see Faith really kick ass a Slayer in the Buffy universe (I haven't read the Angel comics) and I adored her entrance- "What up." And I love that she gets the Scyth for a while. It was always that way in the TV series that she's the "second slayer" and Buffy always comes first, despite them being equals (before Faith turned evil I suppose, as Buffy had put it). About time she gets the lime light for a while!

I didn't know if Buffy had killed the MMA guy, but could feel her rage being displayed. I'm surprised that nothing was done and maybe was a bit of a cop out "They were amused over your meltdown" Were they? I thought they'd be onto Buffy like a rash.
Kinda feeling Willow's sadness and almost like a depression happening. I feel sad for her and found it interesting that Xander and Dawn are relating her to her old high school shy self.

On a somewhat unrelated note- I wrote in after the last issue. They published my letter! I'm buzzing! 😀 I didn't say anything particularly special- short, sweet and full of praise. Made it on the first page of letters though! 😀

 

[white avenger]

Just got the issue, and I have to say, Buffy's greeting of Faith was hopeful, if somewhat unexpected. Maye it's the turning point, they can bury their collective hatchets, and finally realize that they have more in common than either one has been willing to admit. They're the Chosen Two, dammit. Technically, they're the last Slayers to ever be "Chosen" in the traditional way, at least until Fray comes along. They should stick together.

Just on a side note, I wonder where Faith got the katana. It's nice to see sh seems to have outgrown her thing for fantasy daggers.

Also, does the Scythe seem to be growing? In Season 11, it looks like it's about half again as long as it was in Season 7, and Willow could carry it with ease back then. Now, Buffy seems to actually struggle with it, without her Slayer strength.

 

[Stoney]

Yeah, the whole weight thing isn't consistent to the tv show where we saw the scythe being lifted easily by a weak, mere human type. 😀 But I like the meaning of the 'weight' of the power and responsibility of the slayer represented by the scythe though, particularly with the argument around Jordan et al's choice this season. So I feel pretty willing to ignore the heftiness inconsistency. There was also the response that Faith and Buffy both had when they held it and felt connected to it that Jordan didn't feel, or didn't react to if she did when she merrily handed it over. That is easier to fanwank away I suppose as we can have only the 'chosen' as the ones connected to the slayer line itself as having that increased awareness.

 

[zoe]

I enjoy it but i felt like if there was two issues in one, for me it would have been better one issue focus completly on Faith, i feel it rush but i guess is because this season it´s too short

 

[Blair]

HowiMetdaSlayer: they published it...where?

First page of the letters at the back of the issue. I signed it under my real life name- SJ.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

I haven't read the comics since Season 8. Can someone fill me in on what the status of Buffy and Spike's relationship is? Are they 100% together? I heard that he was feeding off of her - true?

 

[GoSpuffy]

I haven't read the comics since Season 8. Can someone fill me in on what the status of Buffy and Spike's relationship is? Are they 100% together? I heard that he was feeding off of her - true?

They are 100% together and have been for quite some time. When they were locked in the prison camp buffy let Spike feed because there wasn't enough blood to keep him strong.

 

[Stoney]

I haven't read the comics since Season 8. Can someone fill me in on what the status of Buffy and Spike's relationship is? Are they 100% together? I heard that he was feeding off of her - true?

Yes he was feeding from her but it was presented as a temporary thing (no implication it is something they do anyway). Because it weakened Buffy it wasn't a great balance for them to try to play and Buffy started working as a trustee in the camp, trying to control fighting etc, in exchange for extra blood supplies for Spike. They have openly been together in a relationship since around mid-S10. During last season they worked through some issues/history a little and very clearly took a forward step into a strong/healthy relationship. With Spike already integrated and living with Xander at that point too, there is a real family vibe with the gang at the moment (although somewhat disrupted by the events of S11). S11 has been less focussed on relationship stuff and so Spike/Buffy has just continued alongside the plot. I'm sure more challenges will be thrown at them. 🙂

 

[Mrs Gordo]

Thanks for the update - how old is Buffy in the comics right now and/or how much time has passed since Season 7? Are they still kinda going with one year per season timeline?

 

[Priceless]

Thanks for the update - how old is Buffy in the comics right now and/or how much time has passed since Season 7? Are they still kinda going with one year per season timeline?

Yes they seem to be going for a year a season, though age hasn't been mentined for a long time. I think they will stay at Buffy being early 20's for the run of the comic, but really she's about 27

 

[EditorsNote]

I think Season 11 happens around 2011, so I guess Buffy is 30?

After The Fall all happens in May of 2004. At least 2 movies are made and released on Blu-Ray about what happened to LA during that event, so let's say the IDW Angel comics end around 2007.

For Angel to get everything he needs before Buffy Season 8, I'd say he at least needs a year, putting Season 8 in 2008. And it's basically been 1 season equals 1 year ever since. A few pop culture references screw this theory up, but it's as close as I can figure.

 

[Mrs Gordo]

At least 2 movies are made and released on Blu-Ray about what happened to LA during that event, so let's say the IDW Angel comics end around 2007.

What movies??

 

[EditorsNote]

What movies??

Post After the Fall multiple movies were made about what happened during After the Fall, since everyone in LA is a screen writer. One was Last Angel in Hell (starring Nicholas Cage as Angel and Cameron Diaz as Spike) and another one was a film series called Twinkle.

I swear this is real. Or at least real within the Buffyverse.

 

[Mylie]

I absolutely loved this one!!

The artwork was gorgeous. I found myself looking at specific scenes for a while because of how beautiful the drawings were. Isaac's depiction of Faith is amazing, the whole scene where Buffy fights the guy, Dawn was adorable!

Love seeing Buffy struggle without her powers and I love that she's still trying to help people even if her lack of strength is making it more difficult for her.

I thought they captured Faith's voice perfectly and I love her outfit so much. The Fuffy hug was heartwarming and I'm glad that we're getting some nice interactions between them. They've really grown. I'm hoping this whole thing will bring them closer.

This was my favorite issue of s11 so far!