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Discussion of Buffy 12.03 - Released 8/22/18 (Dark Horse)

TriBel

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@Mrs Gordo I've figured out the ending. Buffy must take Illyria into herself, freeing Fred and making herself super strong again. The last panel with be Buffy giving Angel permission to continue his relationship with Illyria.

Which may well explain the blue in Fray's hair! And I'm only half joking....o_O
 

HowiMetdaSlayer

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Maybe they kill Harth and the slayer line is reinstated into a new single slayer line. While that would set up the series nicely. Unfortunately it would still leave the rest of the comics' canon intact. 😕
 

Mrs Gordo

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I just thought of something. How does Harth know definitively that his way of "changing the timeline" won't result in some butterfly effect to destroy himself (or making it so he himself is never born or made a vampire)?

Please note that I base all of my time travel knowledge on Back to the Future, so this would be like Doc telling Marty not to change anything because one difference could cause catastrophic effects in the future. And here Harth is changing a SUPER BIG THING. How can he be sure that this change in history won't affect him?

Are we maybe not supposed to think so hard about time travel. Is this like Angel s11 where Illyria and Angel go around changing all sorts of stuff but nothing ended up changing in the future?
 
Grace
Grace
Ugh, I hate time travel stories.

thetopher

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Sineya
Um, evil's gonna monologue? That's all I got lol.
Harth seems drunk with the idea of power and- with that- comes the certainty that he cannot be stopped.
Not even....by time itself! *melodramatic gasp*
 

Mrs Gordo

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Um, evil's gonna monologue? That's all I got lol.
Harth seems drunk with the idea of power and- with that- comes the certainty that he cannot be stopped.
Not even....by time itself! *melodramatic gasp*

Is this like an absolute power corrupts absolutely? :D
 

Grace

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OK, I finally got a chance to give #3 a second read and I liked it even better this time! This issue really cemented Faith as my favorite character in the comics. Which is wild because she doesn't even crack my top five in canon...ahem, I mean, on the shows. The "nerd Dracula" and "ray gun" moments especially made me so happy. I could really hear ED's voice in some of the lines. Like others, I'm upset about the way they undercut her with the scythe thing, but I'm hoping that might pay off in #4 and she'll be important to the final confrontation with Harth. (What, I can dream, right? I know the comics never give me what I want.) I also definitely have to concur with the disappointment over the Fred/Illyria bodysharing stuff, but clearly Joss & co. just don't care about it, so it is what it is.

Since, as I say, the comics never give me what I want, I'm keeping my expectations low for #4. It's probably unlikely, but I would like to see good moments for Buffy and Dawn, Buffy and Willow, and, yes, Buffy and Angel in #4. (And on that last one, I'm not even talking about romance. Just a "two old soldiers" moment that won't be ripped to shreds by the fandom. Hahahaha, who am I kidding, it's impossible for there to be a Buffy/Angel moment that won't be ripped to shreds by the fandom. But the discourse after #2 got to me. And the Spuffy moment in #3 was sweet.)

I noticed that there were three inkers credited for this issue. Karl Story, who did #1 and #2, plus Dexter Vines and Andy Owens, who have done inking for BtVS in previous seasons. I'm wondering if it's just a timing/vacation/etc. thing or if DH was unhappy with KS's work. The art certainly hasn't been getting rave reviews.

(Also, FWIW, I really don't think Dawn, who is ultraprotective, would leave her teeny baby with Xander's mother, so in collaboration with @Mrs Gordo, I have decided that Xander's mom left his dad, moved to SF, got intensive therapy with Dr. Mike and is now a very nice person who can be trusted with a baby.)
 

Grace

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Oh, also, I wanted to ask... Is the side of Andrew's van a reference to something? I didn't get it.

7OZvOHi.png


And did anyone else wonder if this photo in the background was supposed to be Joss?

yOIjL5T.png
 

TriBel

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And did anyone else wonder if this photo in the background was supposed to be Joss?

Yes - I think it's Joss (I've had a discussion about it elsewhere). I'm also wondering about the middle frame (the one between the two "Joss" pictures). As far as I can tell, it's discontinuous with the other two.

1535215348904.png

1535215401332.png

Andrew's van - the drawing's familiar. I can't place it and that's irritating me. Andrew says "It's better on the inside" - I wondered whether this was a play on Dr Who - "It's bigger on the inside" (LOL! Is Andrew a "time lord"?). There's a reference to another Doctor. Isn't Sanctum Sanctorum where Dr Strange lives?
 
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Mrs Gordo

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Just a "two old soldiers" moment that won't be ripped to shreds by the fandom. Hahahaha, who am I kidding, it's impossible for there to be a Buffy/Angel moment that won't be ripped to shreds by the fandom.

To dream the imposible dream! Let me think how it would play out....

Angel turns to Buffy determination in his eyes, “We can still win, Buffy. We never stop fighting, remember? I learned that from you.”

Buffy gives Angel a tender smile. There is a moment of appreciation that they share with each other for all they have been through along the years, both together and apart. “You’re right. Let’s go to work.”


My reaction: oh how nice.
(Some/many) Fandom reactions: This is regression! Angel is being incredibly sexist by telling Buffy what to do and he is trying to use his old ‘tricks of seduction.’ The REAL Buffy has moved on from this and would be rolling here eyes because the real Buffy hates Angel just like me. This is terrible writing.
 
Mylie
Mylie
LOL

sosa lola

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(Also, FWIW, I really don't think Dawn, who is ultraprotective, would leave her teeny baby with Xander's mother, so in collaboration with @Mrs Gordo, I have decided that Xander's mom left his dad, moved to SF, got intensive therapy with Dr. Mike and is now a very nice person who can be trusted with a baby.)

Except she says, "Let's hope your mother doesn't end up raising her" which reads to me that Jessica Harris is still the same alcoholic mess she always was.
 

Grace

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Except she says, "Let's hope your mother doesn't end up raising her" which reads to me that Jessica Harris is still the same alcoholic mess she always was.

I think that line could just as easily be read as “Let’s pray we don’t die and leave our child an orphan” period. My head canon is unshakable.
 

sosa lola

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I think that line could just as easily be read as “Let’s pray we don’t die and leave our child an orphan” period. My head canon is unshakable.

Xander's parents are a hopeless case for me. Until we get a canon confirmation, they will always be abusive alcoholics.
 

The Bronze

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So how the hell are you guys getting this so quickly? I've only just received mine and I pre-ordered. Boo to you.

Looks like we're all mostly on the same page. Good stuff from Faith, Buffy and Giles. No idea why Andrew is bigged up so much. Buffy treats him like a brother, which is just odd.

Willow was wrong about the Scythe. The spell would have worked for Faith. Only thing was Buffy had the Scythe in her hand and there's no way she'd accept someone sacrificing themselves for her.

I'm a little concerned that our heroes seem so thick. Obviously Harth had the upper hand and yet they didn't have a single plan to counter him. It was a nice twist at the end though and he's the best villain for a while.

It goes without saying that the Angel Fredyria stuff was awful.
 
Mrs Gordo
Mrs Gordo
Yeah Harth is an interesting dude. I wish we had more time to explore that backstory.

TriBel

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Except she says, "Let's hope your mother doesn't end up raising her" which reads to me that Jessica Harris is still the same alcoholic mess she always was.
I think that line could just as easily be read as “Let’s pray we don’t die and leave our child an orphan” period. My head canon is unshakable.
I read it first as Sosa Lola did - then as Grace suggests. :) I think it's deliberately ambivalent. In addition, there's a "Sisterhood" poster in the room. Is it meant to suggest Dawn should feel some sort of empathy for Jessica on the grounds of gender - or is it meant to be read ironically (they have nothing in common)? Is universal feminism possible? IDK. :confused: There's also the "We Can Do It" poster to consider. As far as I'm aware, Miller's poster was also known as "Rosie the Riveter" after Norman Rockwell's wartime painting. Rockwell was responsible for some of the most idyllic representations of the American family - ideals that none of the "real" families in BtVS live up to. I think whether this ideal is possible feeds into the Dander family unit.

So how the hell are you guys getting this so quickly? I've only just received mine and I pre-ordered. Boo to you.
The power of the WWW. :D I had my electronic copy delivered 3 minutes past midnight (UK time) on the day of the release. However, we'd discussed it 4 hours before because we had a friend in a different time zone.
 

sosa lola

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I read it first as Sosa Lola did - then as Grace suggests. :) I think it's deliberately ambivalent.

I think it reads the way it sounds. Last time we heard about Xander's parents was in S10 when Xander was given a past with understanding and supportive parents and he knew right away that it was fake because that wasn't his past at all. If Xander's mother has changed, there would be a line to tell us so. Dawn's line was clearly meant to be read as ironic and funny "Your drunk mom can babysit my child, but let's hope she doesn't end up raising her."
 

MrsEssmich

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I just thought of something. How does Harth know definitively that his way of "changing the timeline" won't result in some butterfly effect to destroy himself (or making it so he himself is never born or made a vampire)?

Who says it is the same universe? It could be a parallel universe, where the changes won't effect Harth's own universe's present, only it's future. That would mean that the grandfather paradoxon is only theoretical, because time travel does inevitably create a parallel universe. .... just thinking.
 

Mrs Gordo

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Who says it is the same universe? It could be a parallel universe, where the changes won't effect Harth's own universe's present, only it's future. That would mean that the grandfather paradoxon is only theoretical, because time travel does inevitably create a parallel universe. .... just thinking.


This whole thread is pretty good, I encourage ya'll to go look at it. But basically what Christos says here is that once the future folks travel back in time they are no longer part of the future timeline but outside of the timeline as a (in my Data voice) temporal anomaly. So that anything that happens in the past doesn't affect them in the future. This is not consistent with Back to the Future theory of time travel, but I think it's consistent with some Star Trek stuff we have seen (specifically the new movies). So I guess nothing they do in the present will affect Fray, Erin, Harth (or Gage!) but it will affect the future. Which would explain why they decided to gather everyone they cared about in the future timeline and take them back to the present so that they wouldn't cease to exist.
 
MrsEssmich
MrsEssmich
I need to re-read after sleep. fire bad, tree pretty. good night ;D

MrsEssmich

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SO in my mind I picture that temporal anomaly which isn't affecting them in their future, but them maybe not being part of the future timeline anymore as an aneurysm. The artery is the timeline and the aneurysm the anomaly. In my mind the anomaly is growing because of everything that is happening in that like an aneurysm - till it explodes and Harth and the other guests just cease to exist.

Bildschirmfoto 2018-08-27 um 10.12.56.png
 

TriBel

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SO in my mind I picture that temporal anomaly which isn't affecting them in their future, but them maybe not being part of the future timeline anymore as an aneurysm. The artery is the timeline and the aneurysm the anomaly. In my mind the anomaly is growing because of everything that is happening in that like an aneurysm - till it explodes and Harth and the other guests just cease to exist.

View attachment 11487

Pretty gruesome imagery :eek: but otherwise the analogy works for me! :)
 
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