Do Buffy's uh... personal choices... bother anyone else?

[Chase Summers]

Buffy was upfront at all stages about how she felt and very considerate towards Satsu throughout. Satsu is an adult who has shown herself to be completely capable of making her own decisions ("I'll see you on the battlefield, Ma'am.").

You're not wrong about any of it, but for me the thing that is bothering me is that she is supposed to be the "General" of this army. Satsu has never been portrayed in any kind of light that shows her on equal terms with Buffy. That's why I feel it's not right. Buffy is supposed to be a higher up and Satsu is a subordinate. It's like Buffy was taking advantage just for that reason.

Even though Satsu was adament about being okay with the situation, all of us know that we'll say just about anything when we're in love. I think Satsu got a little more than she bargained for, hence her asking to stay in Tokyo.

Personally though, I think Buffy's actions so far are not totally out of character. To me it isn't that big of a jump. Funny thing is I'm still all about The Slayer and dislike Buffy the person at the same time

 

[Blair Waldorf-Bass]

I think the main problem with season 8 is that the writers are loosing the character of Buffy. It feels like season 6 again. Season 7 was an ok season, but Buffy herself was fantastic that year. She grew up. That smile at the end of chosen, was so hopeful, and you really felt, that this woman is going to do great things, and also be happy.
Season 8- fighting with dawn, fighting with giles, fighting with faith, robbing banks, doing damage to humans, maybe even killing them if they get in her way. And sleeping with a girl who loves her but she doesn't feel the same.
The main problem is that I don't like Buffy in season 8. And when you don't like the main character, it's really a problem.

Yeah, Buffy just seems really out of character in this season. While I didn't like what Buffy was like in mid-season 6, I felt that it was necessary to showcase this dark side of her and the mean side, too. But we don't need to go back there again with her getting into arguments with everyone and being ... I don't know if 'annoying' is the right word, but I guess that's what I'll say for now. It's like she's being made out to be this young woman who'll bang the nearest body that's in love with her, not caring if she loves them back. I'm sorry, but season 8 just really disgusts me.

 

[sosa lola]

I don't get why Buffy is OOC this season. This season Buffy has changed the world, changed lives of many girls, is called a terrorist for Sunnydale's blow up, she's at war with demons and humans, has Twilight after her, Giles cutting her out, Faith trying to kill her, hadn't had sex for two years and a half, has many followers she needs to fund...

All that pressure and you want her to act perfect? She can't. Look how pressure made her act in S6 and it's much less than the pressure she's in now.

 

[nerd4hire]

I don't get it either. Change is not out of character. It's change. Buffy is not a girl anymore. She's a woman, and one who has found herself suddenly in a position of having great power over many others.

I think it's important not to miss what appears to be one of central themes of Season 8. Twilight tells us Buffy's greatest strength comes from her sense of belief in her core moral values. She does stuff because she thinks it's right. He wants to take that away from her. Dark Willow appears to be launching a similar attack. This is Buffy's Season 8 challenge. How much of what she believes to be her core self can she retain. The writers can't show you that, without showing you the challenges being put before her which tend to wear that core away. In Anywhere but Here Simirilion has her questioning if what she's doing is right. Currently she's seeing the future she helped create in Time of Your Life and it's got her depressed. She's still "because it's wrong" Buffy though, and that's the Season 8 question. Can she keep that.

 

[willow23]

This just strikes me as really exploitive on Buffy's part.

I agree that what makes Buffy an interesting heroine is the fact that she is flawed, but it is also the fact that her flaws are understandable. She has made mistakes romantically and sexually before, but they weren't on the same level. With Riley she was a little insensitive and didn't realize the discrepancy between how much he loved her versus how much she loved him, but she definitely wasn't the stick out villain of the piece. There were two sides to it. Buffy wasn't really willing to put it all on the line emotionally until it was too late and he was no longer in a position to accept it. It was heartbreaking and very Long Morrow style tragic, but she wasn't using him. With Spike she was, but there were circumstances within her own character growth that made it, although not amenable, understandable. She was the villain there, but SHE DIED. She was stuck in an overall self destructive pattern and her behavior made sense, even though it was wrong.

This thing with Satsu strikes me as not particularly justifiable. She has admitted on a rational logical level that she doesn't love Satsu and yet she still slept with her. Not to mention the fact that she really could never love Satsu because she doesn't swing that way.

I completely agree with that, also lets not forget that Buffy is only 23 which is pretty young and not everybody but some people actually do experiment with various different forms of sex at young ages and leave it at that. Some men will have sex with another man once and never do it again and vice versa.

If Buffy wanted to experiment, she shouldn't have done it with someone who loves her and could be really hurt by her actions. This is just irresponsible on her part an I don't see any character driven basis for her insensitivity.

As for her being forthcoming, that doesn't excuse her insensitivity. She can't just say "Oh, I don't love you. You love me. I want to sleep with you, but that's it" and assume that absolves her of the emotional responsibility here. If anything, I feel like her awareness makes it worse. She consciously makes a really bad decision. She had all the power in the relationship and I think she really abused Satsu's love.


I see t as selfishness on Buffy's part and sloppiness on the part of the writers who didn't give Buffy's trist with Satsu a real basis in plot or character development.

 

[Blair Waldorf-Bass]

This just strikes me as really exploitive on Buffy's part.

I agree that what makes Buffy an interesting heroine is the fact that she is flawed, but it is also the fact that her flaws are understandable. She has made mistakes romantically and sexually before, but they weren't on the same level. With Riley she was a little insensitive and didn't realize the discrepancy between how much he loved her versus how much she loved him, but she definitely wasn't the stick out villain of the piece. There were two sides to it. Buffy wasn't really willing to put it all on the line emotionally until it was too late and he was no longer in a position to accept it. It was heartbreaking and very Long Morrow style tragic, but she wasn't using him. With Spike she was, but there were circumstances within her own character growth that made it, although not amenable, understandable. She was the villain there, but SHE DIED. She was stuck in an overall self destructive pattern and her behavior made sense, even though it was wrong.

This thing with Satsu strikes me as not particularly justifiable. She has admitted on a rational logical level that she doesn't love Satsu and yet she still slept with her. Not to mention the fact that she really could never love Satsu because she doesn't swing that way.



If Buffy wanted to experiment, she shouldn't have done it with someone who loves her and could be really hurt by her actions. This is just irresponsible on her part an I don't see any character driven basis for her insensitivity.

As for her being forthcoming, that doesn't excuse her insensitivity. She can't just say "Oh, I don't love you. You love me. I want to sleep with you, but that's it" and assume that absolves her of the emotional responsibility here. If anything, I feel like her awareness makes it worse. She consciously makes a really bad decision. She had all the power in the relationship and I think she really abused Satsu's love.


I see t as selfishness on Buffy's part and sloppiness on the part of the writers who didn't give Buffy's trist with Satsu a real basis in plot or character development.

Well said! While Buffy always seems to be having sex with people that she's not yet in love with, I felt that she really would've matured by season eight. Now, if there had been more plot development or build-up of her tryst with Satsu, that would've been fine with me, depending on how they'd done it.

 

[sosa lola]

This thing with Satsu strikes me as not particularly justifiable. She has admitted on a rational logical level that she doesn't love Satsu and yet she still slept with her. Not to mention the fact that she really could never love Satsu because she doesn't swing that way.

Thing is, we don't really know how it excatly happened. Last time we saw Buffy, she said she's not gay. Told Satsu that nothing will happen. Then in the next issue they were in bed together.

I think it all went to Buffy's "I miss sex" in #1. She had sex dreams about Xander and a threesome with Angel and Spike. She hadn't had sex for two years and a half. Maybe that's what drove her to have sex with Satsu.

I actually see the Buffy/Satsu bit as Buffy's healthiest sex experience. It started with understanding and support from both girls and it ended with understanding and support from both girls. It was the first time Buffy actually ends a sexual experience with a smile, not just from her, even from Satsu. Both girls knew what it was about, knew it could never lead to anything serious, but they still enjoyed their time. I don't think Satsu hated Buffy or regretted what happened. She knew what she was getting herself into and she was okay with.

 

[willow23]

I guess I just don't think, even if they had discussed it, that Buffy acted appropriately. She still had all the power in this relationship because Satsu is in love with her.

Both girls knew what it was about, knew it could never lead to anything serious, but they still enjoyed their time. I don't think Satsu hated Buffy or regretted what happened. She knew what she was getting herself into and she was okay with.

I just don't think sleeping with someone is such a casual thing. I mean even if she got Satsu's approval, Buffy isn't in love with Satsu, which is an issue because it cheapens the whole experience. This alone is a problem, but, admittedly more of a gray area. However, despite that the inequality of emotional vulnerability make this exploitative.

 

[Blair Waldorf-Bass]

I guess I just don't think, even if they had discussed it, that Buffy acted appropriately. She still had all the power in this relationship because Satsu is in love with her.



I just don't think sleeping with someone is such a casual thing. I mean even if she got Satsu's approval, Buffy isn't in love with Satsu, which is an issue because it cheapens the whole experience. This alone is a problem, but, admittedly more of a gray area. However, despite that the inequality of emotional vulnerability make this exploitative.

Well said, my friend!
Discussing it just made it all the more stranger, in my opinion. Again of the problem with Buffy sleeping with people before she's in love with the, issue. It really seemed as though she'd matured and now it's as if she's back to phase one. I personally thought Satsu was annoying and whiny. (Not being racist either, as I've got some Asian roots)

 

[willow23]

Well said, my friend!
Discussing it just made it all the more stranger, in my opinion.

Yes, it made it more calculated, which just begs the question, why?

 

[Blair Waldorf-Bass]

Yes, it made it more calculated, which just begs the question, why?

Exactly! All of the other times that Buffy slept with people it wasn't talked about before. I mean, who TALKS to someone BEFORE they do it about that type of stuff? It's just unrealistic and mind-boggling to me.

 

[Cordelia Chase*]

Well this was a different area that BUffy never experimented in. I liked the whole Satsu loving her. I wished they would become a couple.

Anyways,I dont see whats wrong with it? People makes mistakes and bad choices. Whether it was because she did feel something for her or because she was just horning. Thats how we grow up and become more mature. We do things we may not like. Everything isnt going to be a Cinderella-ish and be so perfect. The thing with her and Spike wasnt all peachyand flowers at first. BUffy enjoyed it so im happy. And why is everyone jumping on her case. Satsu knew what was up. She could of easily said no. Obviouly they both were using each other.

 

[white avenger]

Buffy wouldn't be the first person in fiction, or even in real life, who settled for an "in the meantime snuggle buddy" while hoping that the real would come along. People just plain get lonely, and, combined with the risk inherent in the Slayer line of work, sometimes "in the meantime" winds up being all that there ever is time for. I have no problem with either that or Buffy's choice of partners if those were the only considerations. But they weren't.

If Satsu wasn't Buffy's second in command, and I'm assuming that she wasn't, she was still IN Buffy's command, and as such should be completely "hands off," if for no other reason than the morale of the other Slayers. For all we know, Satsu initiated the entire thing, probably did, in fact, and Buffy just let it go too far, found out that it was more than a little bit pleasurable, and decided, "What the hell? Who's gonna know? It's just this once, and it seems to work for Willow." That doesn't really matter. What DOES matter, as I said, was that Satsu was Buffy's subordinate, and, no matter how careful the two girls were, eventually the truth would get out, either accidentally, like it did, or intentionally, either by another of the Slayers with a grudge (I seriously doubt that all of those girls are best buds. Somewhere among the group, there's someone either jealous, ambitious, or both, enough to try and use a thing like that to her own advantage) As far as that goes, there's been almost unending action of one sort or another since "Wolves At The Gate." Let the dust settle, have a little down time, and the problems might still show up.

Imagine this: Some ambitious Slayer, a Kennedy type, feels slighted because Satsu got command of the Japanese Slayers. "I guess you have to sleep with the boss to get ahead around here." There goes morale and discipline right out the window, rgardless of how Buffy handles the situation.

Buffy/Satsu was wrong, and it was poor judgment on Buffy's part, not because it was girl/girl, and not because Satsu's feelings went deeper than Buffy's, but because the whole thing was between GENERAL Buffy, and CAPTAIN Satsu, and it's not over with yet.

 

[Blair Waldorf-Bass]

Well this was a different area that BUffy never experimented in. I liked the whole Satsu loving her. I wished they would become a couple.
Anyways,I dont see whats wrong with it? People makes mistakes and bad choices. Whether it was because she did feel something for her or because she was just horning. Thats how we grow up and become more mature. We do things we may not like. Everything isnt going to be a Cinderella-ish and be so perfect. The thing with her and Spike wasnt all peachyand flowers at first. BUffy enjoyed it so im happy. And why is everyone jumping on her case. Satsu knew what was up. She could of easily said no. Obviouly they both were using each other.

That's the thing. Buffy's already learned from her relationship in Spike what it's like to use people and be selfish. Knowing that Spike was in love with her, she was able to use him. By the end of season seven she really UNDERSTOOD things and had matured so well. I really had high hopes for the comic. And that's what's wrong with the comics and Buffy and Satsu's "relationship". Buffy's going backwards in terms of how she's matured. Fighting with everyone and using people all over again.

Buffy wouldn't be the first person in fiction, or even in real life, who settled for an "in the meantime snuggle buddy" while hoping that the real would come along. People just plain get lonely, and, combined with the risk inherent in the Slayer line of work, sometimes "in the meantime" winds up being all that there ever is time for. I have no problem with either that or Buffy's choice of partners if those were the only considerations. But they weren't.

If Satsu wasn't Buffy's second in command, and I'm assuming that she wasn't, she was still IN Buffy's command, and as such should be completely "hands off," if for no other reason than the morale of the other Slayers. For all we know, Satsu initiated the entire thing, probably did, in fact, and Buffy just let it go too far, found out that it was more than a little bit pleasurable, and decided, "What the hell? Who's gonna know? It's just this once, and it seems to work for Willow." That doesn't really matter. What DOES matter, as I said, was that Satsu was Buffy's subordinate, and, no matter how careful the two girls were, eventually the truth would get out, either accidentally, like it did, or intentionally, either by another of the Slayers with a grudge (I seriously doubt that all of those girls are best buds. Somewhere among the group, there's someone either jealous, ambitious, or both, enough to try and use a thing like that to her own advantage) As far as that goes, there's been almost unending action of one sort or another since "Wolves At The Gate." Let the dust settle, have a little down time, and the problems might still show up.

Imagine this: Some ambitious Slayer, a Kennedy type, feels slighted because Satsu got command of the Japanese Slayers. "I guess you have to sleep with the boss to get ahead around here." There goes morale and discipline right out the window, rgardless of how Buffy handles the situation.

Buffy/Satsu was wrong, and it was poor judgment on Buffy's part, not because it was girl/girl, and not because Satsu's feelings went deeper than Buffy's, but because the whole thing was between GENERAL Buffy, and CAPTAIN Satsu, and it's not over with yet.

*claps and nods* Buffy's really sending out the wrong message to the other Slayers by doing this.

 

[InsaneMystic]

Exactly! All of the other times that Buffy slept with people it wasn't talked about before. I mean, who TALKS to someone BEFORE they do it about that type of stuff? It's just unrealistic and mind-boggling to me.

Seriously? Wow, I must be even stranger than I thought, lol!
I definitely make sure I get the "rules" straightened out before walking down erotic lane with someone... it's a necessary act of respect IMO, especially as I'm about as anti-commitment as anyone can be. 😉

 

[sosa lola]

But this is the whole point of S8. Buffy is facing a whole new sort of pressure. Much worse and harder than anything she had came across in the past. Of course, she'll mess-up, once, twice, many times. You can't expect her to be perfect. Heck she had used Xander, knowing that he was in love with her, to make Angel jealous. And she repeated the same thing with Spike on a whole more disgusting level in S6. At least she had the tendency to tell Satsu that if they had sex it wouldn't be anything more than sex and she was gentle and sweet with her throughout that experience (unlike how she was with Xander and Spike). Satsu had the option to say no. Buffy didn't force her. That's a development.

I agree that making Satsu the head of their Japan team was wrong and would probably start a fit from jealous slayers, though.

Spoiler

At least Buffy will be sending Kennedy to evaluate Satsu's ability to lead.

 

[Blair Waldorf-Bass]

But this is the whole point of S8. Buffy is facing a whole new sort of pressure. Much worse and harder than anything she had came across in the past. Of course, she'll mess-up, once, twice, many times. You can't expect her to be perfect. Heck she had used Xander, knowing that he was in love with her, to make Angel jealous. And she repeated the same thing with Spike on a whole more disgusting level in S6. At least she had the tendency to tell Satsu that if they had sex it wouldn't be anything more than sex and she was gentle and sweet with her throughout that experience (unlike how she was with Xander and Spike). Satsu had the option to say no. Buffy didn't force her. That's a development.

I agree that making Satsu the head of their Japan team was wrong and would probably start a fit from jealous slayers, though.

Spoiler

At least Buffy will be sending Kennedy to evaluate Satsu's ability to lead.

But that's the thing, Buffy makes the same mistake for what seems like the millionth time and it's finally getting really annoying. I hated her in season six and finally at the end of season seven I was so proud of her because it'd seemed like she wouldn't make those wrong choices again and use people, but here she is, repeating everything all over again. *shakes head*

 

[willow23]

You can't expect her to be perfect. Heck she had used Xander, knowing that he was in love with her, to make Angel jealous. And she repeated the same thing with Spike on a whole more disgusting level in S6. At least she had the tendency to tell Satsu that if they had sex it wouldn't be anything more than sex and she was gentle and sweet with her throughout that experience (unlike how she was with Xander and Spike). Satsu had the option to say no. Buffy didn't force her. That's a development.

I don't expect her to be perfect, but I expect to understand where she is coming from. The thing with Xander was on a much smaller scale and as for Spike, again, she was recovering from being pulled out of heaven. True, Buffy didn't force, but Satsu made it very clear that she was in love with Buffy. Buffy, clearly isn't in love with her. That gives Buffy leverage. It gives her the power. And we all know that it's about power. So while Buffy didn't hold a gun to Satsu's head, she does have emotional capital.

But that's the thing, Buffy makes the same mistake for what seems like the millionth time and it's finally getting really annoying. I hated her in season six and finally at the end of season seven I was so proud of her because it'd seemed like she wouldn't make those wrong choices again and use people, but here she is, repeating everything all over again. *shakes head*

Yeah. Except I didn't hate season 6. I think it is important that we get it straight that in season 6 there were extenuating circumstances. I'm going to keep saying it: SHE DIED. That was the reason she was pushed into self destructo-mode and it was believable and I was empathetic with her. This was was more abrupt and without cause.

I just feel like Buffy is the villain here and it isn't really understandable.

 

[sosa lola]

I don't expect her to be perfect, but I expect to understand where she is coming from. The thing with Xander was on a much smaller scale and as for Spike, again, she was recovering from being pulled out of heaven. True, Buffy didn't force, but Satsu made it very clear that she was in love with Buffy. Buffy, clearly isn't in love with her. That gives Buffy leverage. It gives her the power. And we all know that it's about power. So while Buffy didn't hold a gun to Satsu's head, she does have emotional capital.

Yes, I agree. Buffy made a wrong choice. I just meant that it's not out of character like some fans say. You say Buffy was going through depression in S6, which is why she took what she needed from Spike and then tossed him aside. Buffy is also going through depression in S8, on a much higher level than S6, she actually changed the world. Instead of being responsible for one girl -S6- she's now responsible for hundreds. Instead of being the target for creatures of the night, she's now a target for both demons and humans. Giles left her now like he did in S6. She and Dawn are not on the best of terms. Faith tried to kill her again.

So it's understandable that Buffy would want to lay her worn-out head on a shoulder of someone who was in love with her. Compare how she treated Satsu with how she had treated Spike, she was nice and respectful toward Satsu. She was ridiculing and disrespectful toward Spike. She took what she wanted from Spike without asking. As for Satsu, she took her by the hand and explained to her that having sex will not lead to anything further. I can see how that might hurt Satsu's feelings, but she still accepted. She had the option to say no, and if she did, I don't think Buffy would hold it against her.

 

[Pulse]

Buffy hooking up with Satsu was surprising, but come'on it is Buffy, she is kind of all over the map. I don't think it's particularily out of character for Buffy to do things that she has no idea what she's doing it. Also you have to think about the time gap between the show and comics. People can grow a hell of a lot. Buffy theoretically in the last season was.... 21? (The age of a third year unversity student I think), which is my age now, and I know that in four years I will be remarkable different.

To me people saying it's like season 6 all over again is a strange argument because I didn't understand people being of critical of her then either. People get depressed, people change, and it happens. And sure I think anyone here can say, Buffy shouldn't have done that, or that was no cool, but to me I have to draw the line at saying it's "out of character" in a way that you are judging the writers and such. Buffy is buffy, therefore anything she does in canon is in her "character".

About the whole sleeping with someone who loves her... who hasn't. Okay that makes me sound like a hoe, but I mean hasn't someone ever been in a situation where the other person liked you way more than you liked them. Sometimes it doesn't matter. Buffy had fun, and seemed to care that Satsu had fun, therefore she's not a huge bastard, kinda stupid in lacking forsight that this could make Satsu's love deepen, but she's not a jackass.