Do you believe Spike's theory about Buffy's death wish?

[AnthonyCordova]

In the episode Fool for Love, Spike explains to Buffy how he managed to kill 2 slayers. Near the end of the episode, as Buffy pressed him for more information, he tells Buffy that what it really boiled down to was that he killed the slayers by capitalizing on their "death wish". He also suggested that Buffy deep down suffers from the same thing. Buffy seemed to have a small epiphany at this suggestion.

My initial reaction was skepticism. And on the surface, it seems completely wrong that Buffy has a death wish, with a cursory inspection of the last several years of her life. But...

But her reaction when Spike told her that has kept me thinking. And after thinking about it, it seems plausible. It's just that I can't think of any examples from previous episodes to support the theory.

So what do you think? Do you think Spike was on to something here, or was he just hoping to hurt Buffy with something by taking a wild stab? It doesn't explain her reaction though. Can you think of some examples of the "death wish" perhaps showing itself in other episodes? And might the death wish possibly be something inherent to the slayer condition, so to speak? The episode seemed to be building to this "epiphany" so I think this was intended to be a big deal.

Interestingly enough, Freud had a theory that all people (or most, I'm not sure) suffered from what he called a death drive, which was the complimentary instinct to the pleasure principle (sexual/life instinct). It can manifest itself as a literal awareness/fascination with dying. But it is also to be understood more generally/symbolically as that force in people (and most other things too) that tends towards rest. Most living things exist in a state in-between inactivity and activity. Activity (the willful insistence of the organism to persist and thrive) is opposed by the desire to let go, to quit the hardship of constant struggle. It's an unconscious thing though; according to Freud these drives (mostly) operate on the unconscious level. Annnywaaay...I tend to try to contextualize things that I think about.

 

[white avenger]

Considering the fact that the only way for a Slayer to give up her job at that time was to die, yes, there has to come a time in the life of each Slayer when she actually looks forward to the only form of "retirement" that she will ever have, just as a relief from what has to be the most dangerous job that a human can have. And, if Buffy wasn't actually at that point when Spike told her about her death wish, she wasn't far from it.

 

[AnthonyCordova]

Oh, before I forget, please no big spoilers; I haven't finished seasons 5-7 yet. Sorry.

 

[ladydorotea]

Nope. Spike was fishing for weaknesses and the way to isolate Buffy so she would be vulnerable to his advances. Remember, he is on a quest to get her to sleep with him and for that he needs an opening - anything that convinces her that she is closer to 'him' somehow than to normality. That particular line is one of his first attempts and it wrecks her enough at the moment when she needs her composure, yet not enough to get him where he wants to be, yet.

 

[thetopher]

A lot of fans think of Spike as insightful and empathetic (especially for a vampire), and he can be. But when it comes to Buffy...love is blind. Spike gets a lot of things wrong about her and this is the first of them, imo.
I agree with above, he's trying to get inside her head, to make it like they've got (and always will have) this connection between them. He fails, and Buffy rejects him.
The point of the episode is not an insight into Buffy's personality, its to make us feel sorry for a soulless monster who's spent over a hundred yrs killing innocent people. And it that regard it succeeds.
A lot of what Spike says to Buffy in S6 and especially S7 is just plain wrong. It's a form of psychological warfare against her, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't, but its a way to try and bring them closer/show that they have similarities.

Compare that to what Faith says to Buffy in 'Bad Girls'/'Consequences', where almost everything she says about Buffy/being the slayer turns out to be, a least partially, true.

Ironically, its Faith that had the death wish, but that was nothing to do with being the slayer and everything to do with self-loathing/ atonement for her crimes.

 

[Blaze]

I don't think Buffy necessarily has a death wish, but I don't think she is totally against dying. Compare her reaction in season 1 where she breaks down because she doesn't want to die to her reactions in later season. I can't put spoilers, but Buffy changes a lot. I think with being the slayer, death is the only way to be finally free of her duties like WA said, if I was a slayer myself there would be this small part of me that would be okay with death.

I don't think she has a death wish in the sense that she wants to die. She obviously strive very hard in her fight not to die. To me a death wish could be very different than being suicidal, which I don't think Buffy is. But everyone, especially the slayer, has a bit of a curiosity towards death, even if they don't want to die it's a reality they have to face, because none have survived in the past (and by that I mean they all died on the job). And more importantly, Buffy has an understanding of death that others don't. The jab Spike took didn't come from thin air, he knew he'd make Buffy think about it. In the end whether true or not, it was said as a way to affect Buffy psychologically, and it worked.

 

[thetopher]

The thing is I think 'death wish' and 'tired of living' are two different things. One is wanting to die, the other is not minding if you do.

That's why I think Spike was completely off base when he said that to her. But you're right, it struck a nerve, at Buffy's insecurities about the burden of being the slayer, of being/feeling alone.

Again, I think death wish is what we see when Faith goes after Angel, and maybe when she goes after Angelus (at least a little bit- she wants to save him, but if she dies in the process, so what...)

 

[asilentliaison]

I agree that I don't think she has a death wish. I think there's a curiosity there, sure, but I think that's built into being a Slayer. Not just because you're surrounded by death all the time but because you've got to be familiar with the concept of knowing it could come at any time. How would it feel? How old will I be when I go? Will my loved ones know that I loved them? That I tried to fight it off? I'm sure there's plenty more to it. I don't think it's too far off from what we all wonder about our own mortality really.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

So what do you think? Do you think Spike was on to something here, or was he just hoping to hurt Buffy with something by taking a wild stab? It doesn't explain her reaction though. Can you think of some examples of the "death wish" perhaps showing itself in other episodes? And might the death wish possibly be something inherent to the slayer condition, so to speak? The episode seemed to be building to this "epiphany" so I think this was intended to be a big deal.

Yes, I do.

I absolutely believe Buffy has a fascination with death and often longs for death. Like Spike said, death is her art, she makes it with her hands every day. Spike's the Truth Sayer - even though what he says isn't often popular, it's usually spot-on. I believe Buffy thinks about what her ultimate death will look like. Yes, absolutely, Buffy longs for death, for peace, and for an end to her life of pain, marked by suffering, full of loss, and characterized by death, or as she once said, she doesn't want to live in a world "if these are the choices, if everything just gets stripped away."

Slayers have a "death wish" because they know eventually death will catch up with them. They are ready for it. I could see it being very seductive to just let death take over. Then there's no more fighting, only peace. I think that's what Nikki did.

Now, to be clear, I'm not trying to say Buffy is depressed or suicidal. Rather, I think she has a healthy understanding of death, and is not afraid of it.

As for an example of it in the series, Buffy's "death wish" becomes apparent when she jumps for Dawn.

But this is just my opinion, of course.

 

[ladydorotea]

As for an example of it in the sereis, Buffy's "death wish" becomes apparent when she jumps for Dawn.

Ai. Following this train of logic one has naturally come to conclusion that whenever any kind of self-sacrifice takes place in the series it has something to do with mental disorder that supersedes self-preservation in order to scratch/satisfy all-prevailing (erotic ?) exciting self-destruction drive. Way to go with that one.

 

[Blaze]

[MENTION=12670]AnthonyCordova[/MENTION], I suggest you stop reading this thread if you haven't seen all of s5, it's getting quite spoilery. 🙂

 

[thetopher]

Maybe other slayers have a death wish, but Buffy is different. She has ties to the world. Compared to other slayers she has a purposful, loving life, surrounded by the people who care about her.

Spike is refering to other slayers he's met. Buffy killing things 'death is her art' has little to do with a death wish, its her job. Part of her loves it, just like any other slayer, but the larger part of her loves life. 🙂
Despite all the pain she goes through she never gives up on living, therefore she doesn't have a death wish (which means 'wish to die', not mildly curious about what happens after...)
Want to see a death wish/typical slayer- look at Faith, that's a 'death wish' in action.

BTW- Spike's 'truth telling' stuff is way overblown and almost never applies to Buffy imo, everything he says about her in pretty much dead wrong, he's just shooting his mouth off/trying to make a connection. (except maybe his 'Touched' speech, but even then that's pretty overrought for somebody who's known/loved her for a year.)
After all, he admits he feels more than he thinks, so he's never the most objective. 😉

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Absolutely not.

Spike is completely wrong for where Buffy is in season 5.

Death is not Buffy's art, slaying is what she does, slaying and death are not the same.

Spike had no idea what he was talking about, we see exactly how he won over the other slayers, and it was luck. He got lucky there was an explosion while facing Rong, but that doesn't mean she wanted to die.

Season 6 spoilers:

Spoiler

in season 6 Buffy was depressed, dragged down by spike, by the end of the season once she's free if him she realised she didn't Want to die

 

[Lyri]

Knowing that you have a short life expectancy and having a death wish are not the same thing, in my opinion.

Buffy - and the other Slayers - are willing to die for the cause, that's how they were raised. They were trained to know that the world comes before them, that they're supposed to sacrifice themselves to save the world and the innocent people in it.

But, in my opinion, that's not the same as having a death wish or wanting to die.

So, yeah, I think Spike is wrong. Dead wrong. Spike wants Buffy to come down to his level, so he tries anything and everything to prove that she's more like him and less like her friends and family, and he goes after the very thing that Buffy fears - that she's not normal.

 

[CordelliasHeart]

In slayers in general yes, I think spike had a point...

And also I think spike had a point that Buffys was kept in remission because of her friends and support network...