Do You/Did you read the comics?

[The Ferg]

I'm sorry, but no. This is untrue.

[MENTION=7939]The Ferg[/MENTION]
Yeah, except the comics just assume that you've read Fray

No. I just got done reading Time of Your Life and you hardly need to know anything about Fray's story. Sure, it helps, and it's a nice tie-in, but Whedon specifically wrote it so newcomers wouldn't be too confused. It's like watching Serenity before Firefly. You're missing big plot points but it's not like you can't enjoy the movie and love the characters.

that you've read some of the classic Dork Horse comics

No they don't. Dark Horse Buffy pre-S8 is very much irrelevant in S8/9 times.

that you've read some of the IDW comics

Once again, no. DH never mentions IDW's Angel comics. And the only thing that After the Fall mentions is Betta George. I never read anything before-hand and I still ended up loving him as a character.

that you've seen the unreleased pilot of the animated series

I'm really no trying to be rude, but... what are you talking about? I've seen the pilot for the animated series and it's pretty much the same plot as "After These Messages..." No need to watch something that never even came to fruition.

not to mention watched the entire spin-off show

Spin-off show? As in Angel? Well yea if you read After the Fall or Angel & Faith it'd probably make sense to have seen Angel beforehand. But Buffy, Seasons 8 and 9 are hardly dependent on Angel, in the same way that the Buffy tv show was never dependent on Angel and vice-versa.

It is a mammoth task.

No. It isn't.

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=7939]The Ferg[/MENTION]

No. I just got done reading Time of Your Life and you hardly need to know anything about Fray's story. Sure, it helps, and it's a nice tie-in, but Whedon specifically wrote it so newcomers wouldn't be too confused.

Well, then he did a crappy job because I was absolutely bewildered by this nonsensical arc and found it virtually impenetrable without reading the garbage that's "Fray". And not just me, look at the sales data, "Time of Your Life" is when the comic really started bleeding the readers at a steady rate.

No. It isn't.

Maybe that's how it works in the land of the comic book geeks but if you're just a lowly fan of the show you will feel lost. My friend, a fan of the show tried reading those comics, in the end I was bombarded with questions like this:

OK, what's Spike doing in this comic, shouldn't he be like, dead? He died in the series finale...
Yeah, but they brought him back on "Angel".
Oh. And that's where he became a commander of a bug space ship?
No, that happened...um, in some other comic, I guess. I'm really not sure.
OK. So...since when can Angel talk to dogs?

Yeah. Take a look at the classic Buffy comics. A gal/bloke who watched the show could just pick them up, read and be merry. That's it, watch the show, read the comic, easy, simple, convenient. That's simply not the case with season 8 and 9 because they are filled to the brim with references to crap that did not happen on BtVS TV show. It's strictly for hard-core fandom only.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

[MENTION=7939]The Ferg[/MENTION]


Well, then he did a crappy job because I was absolutely bewildered by this nonsensical arc and found it virtually impenetrable without reading the garbage that's "Fray". And not just me, look at the sales data, "Time of Your Life" is when the comic really started bleeding the readers at a steady rate.

Where'd you get the graph from? I'm not questioning it, it looks right just curious?

Have to say I disagree with you on having to have read the comics before, I hadn't read any of the Dark Horse comics before, and read Fray after Season 8, I didn't have any trouble keeping track of anything.

Like The Ferg Said, it's like watching Serenity before seeing Firefly, you can enjoy the movie, but the show just adds more to it. (I also watched serenity before watching Firefly)

Maybe that's how it works in the land of the comic book geeks but if you're just a lowly fan of the show you will feel lost. My friend, a fan of the show tried reading those comics, in the end I was bombarded with questions like this:

Yeah. Take a look at the classic Buffy comics. A gal/bloke who watched the show could just pick them up, read and be merry. That's it, watch the show, read the comic, easy, simple, convenient. That's simply not the case with season 8 and 9 because they are filled to the brim with references to crap that did not happen on BtVS TV show. It's strictly for hard-core fandom only.

Whats an example of a reference to stuff that didn't happen, It's it widely known the pre season 8 comics aren't cannon and have no bearing on the season 8/9 story?
I enjoyed the comics, my biggest problem with them was their size and how long they took to come out, not being a comic book fan before reading season 8 made it difficult to adjust to the new medium for the story. But the actual content was very easy to get to grips with.

Your friend not being aware that Spike was brought back on Angel isn't really a fault of the comics, the two shows have always been tied together with events on one playing out or effecting the other.
The Bug spaceship wasn't addressed at that point in the comics to be explained later, not in previous Angel comics, so that's the same as asking for an explanation for the gentlemen 10 minuets into Hush, before the audience are aware of the explanation.

 

[Robb Stark]

I'm about three quarters of the way through S8 and while I've enjoyed it so far, I do have to side with [MENTION=11194]EVIL UU[/MENTION] that they can be difficult to follow at times. I'll preface this by stating that I'm about as big of a comic book fan as you'll ever find. All my reading is done through trades now, but I read over 15 different comics at any given time.

Buffy certainly isn't bad, in my opinion, but it's not perfect either. I had zero idea what in the hell what happening during the Fray arc. No clue. And the art was so poor that I couldn't tell if I was looking at Willow or Drusilla. The general comic itself, I can usually figure out, but most of the arcs rarely start out coherently. It takes me a good number of pages most times to figure out what's going on, even if I've just read the conclusion to the previous arc.

Plus, and I recognize this is a purely subjective viewpoint, I'm not the biggest fan of the art in S8. I don't think it captures the characters particularly well (whoever does the covers though is freaking amazing) and their action scenes kind of bug me. In contrast however, LOVE the art in the Angel books, almost all of them. "After the Fall" in particular is incredible. And when it comes to art, I'm a bit of a stickler. The art needs to grab me for me to really, truly love a comic.

 

[The Ferg]

OK, what's Spike doing in this comic, shouldn't he be like, dead? He died in the series finale...
Yeah, but they brought him back on "Angel".

Oh come on, every Buffy fan knows Spike came back for another season of Angel. And if they don't... well... I don't understand why.

Oh. And that's where he became a commander of a bug space ship?
No, that happened...um, in some other comic, I guess. I'm really not sure.

This happened in an IDW comic that was released AFTER he even showed up in S8. Yea, no one knew why he had a spaceship full of bugs.. and we didn't need to know. It's called a break in the status quo. That happens sometimes when there's a long break inbetween seasons.
Also, what were they supposed to do...? Not mention him at all? He was bound to turn up in Buffy's life at some point.

OK. So...since when can Angel talk to dogs?

Since when can Gunn talk to panthers?

Yeah. Take a look at the classic Buffy comics. A gal/bloke who watched the show could just pick them up, read and be merry. That's it, watch the show, read the comic, easy, simple, convenient. That's simply not the case with season 8 and 9 because they are filled to the brim with references to crap that did not happen on BtVS TV show. It's strictly for hard-core fandom only.

Filled to the brim..? Dude, that's completely fine that you don't like the comics. I personally love them, but it really is understandable that one would not. The problem I'm having is that your arguments and anecdotes don't make sense... I wasn't a comic reader or Buffy fan when the classic series was coming out but just looking at Wikipedia's list of Buffy comics, it looks confusing as hell. Like I've said before, S8/9, AtF, and A&F are very easy to understand. And like I (and others) have explained it very rarely has references to other comics, and even when they do reference something you really don't need to know the back story (at least at the time). It's like you're pulling arguments out of nowhere. Have you even read them?

EDIT: Also, are you implying that the classic series is better than Season 8? Not sure if you are or not... If you are, that kinda blows my mind.

 

[sosa lola]

Honestly, the most interesting thing about Buffy S9 is the Xander/Dawn subplot. It's far more down to Earth and emotional and makes me remember NB and MT fondly. I wish they focused more on Buffy's roommates, I really liked them.

The Angel and Faith comic is really great. Less main characters which means more focus on the main characters they have and the storylines are closer to the show and less out there. Plus, Giles' past! Gotta love that.

 

[Buffy Summers]

Could we all try to remember that whether we think it's easy or hard to follow the comics, that can be different for each person, so the fact that you think differently than someone else does not make them WRONG. Thank you.

Buffy certainly isn't bad, in my opinion, but it's not perfect either. I had zero idea what in the hell what happening during the Fray arc. No clue. And the art was so poor that I couldn't tell if I was looking at Willow or Drusilla.

Thank you! I've read this arc once or twice before, and I still was really confused because I thought Fray's sister was Buffy!

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=5973]Black Eye Guy[/MENTION]

Where'd you get the graph from? I'm not questioning it, it looks right just curious?

I made it using the sales data.

Your friend not being aware that Spike was brought back on Angel isn't really a fault of the comics, the two shows have always been tied together with events on one playing out or effecting the other.

No, not like that. The viewers were never forced to watch an episode of AtS just to understand what was going on on BtVS. Imagine something like this, Tara suddenly appears midway through BtVS season 7 and nothing is explained, you want to know what happened? You have to watch some AtS episode. That's what this comic does. Spike suddenly shows up in a freaking space ship without any explanation whatsoever. An official continuation of a TV show should never require the knowledge from another TV show. Or another comic. It's ridiculous.

The Bug spaceship wasn't addressed at that point in the comics to be explained later, not in previous Angel comics, so that's the same as asking for an explanation for the gentlemen 10 minuets into Hush, before the audience are aware of the explanation.

And in the end it doesn't matter, you still need to read some obscure non-canonical comic to get the whole story. Sure, the hard-core fandom does just that, they even wait for an explanation but the people who just like the show stop reading because they don't understand what the hell is going on.
[MENTION=7939]The Ferg[/MENTION]

And if they don't... well... I don't understand why.

Of course you don't understand, you're a hard-core fan.

Also, what were they supposed to do...? Not mention him at all? He was bound to turn up in Buffy's life at some point.

A recapitulation of events from AtS at the very least. Besides, Spike crossed-over to AtS and became an AtS character, he really shouldn't be in BtVS anything. It completely ruins his season 7 arc, it's another case of fried heroically, returns next season like nothing happened. Eh, what a garbage.

Also, are you implying that the classic series is better than Season 8? Not sure if you are or not... If you are, that kinda blows my mind.

I'm not implying, I'm stating that they are much more accessible to the fans of the show than season 8 and season 9. Are they better? That's irrelevant.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I made it using the sales data.

Where'd you get the sales information from, just asking cuz I was looking for detailed information just like that, but the information had different sales figures to your information.

Source

It also doesn't seem to imply that the drop off happened because of Time of Your Life, the drop off looks the same as had been previously, the proper loss seems about 10 issues later with the one shot Thrill which saw a massive drop and the arc following it recovered but not to the same figures.

No, not like that. The viewers were never forced to watch an episode of AtS just to understand what was going on on BtVS. Imagine something like this, Tara suddenly appears midway through BtVS season 7 and nothing is explained, you want to know what happened? You have to watch some AtS episode. That's what this comic does. Spike suddenly shows up in a freaking space ship without any explanation whatsoever. An official continuation of a TV show should never require the knowledge from another TV show. Or another comic. It's ridiculous.

Each showed required knowledge from the other all the time. As was the case in both the shows and the comic you dont have to know every detail to understand whats going on in either.
Why would someone have to know everything about Spikes spaceship, he has a spaceship - thats all there is to it, if you want to know more check out the other comic.

On the show Faith stole Buffys body then flees, next we see her, she's coming back with Willow and she's a good guy again. Everything that Faith goes through is played out on Angel, if your only a Buffy fan and decide to skip Angel you wont know whats going on.

Same way if you are only an Angel fan, When Faith's attacked in prison she's attacked with a bringers knife, you wont know that unless you watched Buffy, but you don't need to know it, cuz you can still just take it as Faith was attacked, knowing whats happening on Buffy just adds more information to events on Angel, and vice versa, exact same as the comics.

You wont know Harmony is a vampire when she turns up in Angel, all the jokes in that episode play off the fact the watcher is already aware she is, and only Cordelia isn't.

When Angel finds out Buffy died, all we get is Willow sitting in the hotel, and "It's Buffy" as the explanation, you wont know she's dead if you hadn't seen Buffy.

In season 7 Willow gets a call from Fred, something is urgent enough to take her away from Sunnydale, she says she'll tell Buffy when she gets back, she never does, so if you want the answer you have to check out Angel.

 

[Robb Stark]

Here's an example of S8 being difficult to follow for me.

The "Predators and Prey" storyline, when Buffy and Andrew go off on some far-flung mission to fight some loosely defined demon. I had NO idea who that rogue Slayer was, the one with the pink mohawk and Faith-lite attitude. I went back through some past volumes of S8 and couldn't find any mention of her. I figured I must have just missed something and kept reading, but I just didn't get who she was at all.

In "Retreat", I'm through the first two issues, and I don't understand how the Twilight organization, or whatever it is, has managed to assemble a demon and modern military army. Sometimes Twilight seems like one guy, sometimes it seems like a group. There's been very little exposition as to how they're doing what they're doing, and how Buffy knows what they're doing, because she suddenly just knows what a threat they are, when in the past it seemed like there was only the faintest hints of what they were up to (holy run on sentence Batman).

If anyone can clear those up for me, with spoilers at a relative minimum, it'd be much appreciated.

 

[Kean]

Here's an example of S8 being difficult to follow for me.

The "Predators and Prey" storyline, when Buffy and Andrew go off on some far-flung mission to fight some loosely defined demon. I had NO idea who that rogue Slayer was, the one with the pink mohawk and Faith-lite attitude. I went back through some past volumes of S8 and couldn't find any mention of her. I figured I must have just missed something and kept reading, but I just didn't get who she was at all.

I can't remember the exact issue, though I have a feeling it is #1, where Andrew is giving the slayers a talk about why they don't use guns. Have another look at that. Then have another read of The Chain and then Anywhere But Here. That should clear up who this girl is. 🙂

In "Retreat", I'm through the first two issues, and I don't understand how the Twilight organization, or whatever it is, has managed to assemble a demon and modern military army. Sometimes Twilight seems like one guy, sometimes it seems like a group. There's been very little exposition as to how they're doing what they're doing, and how Buffy knows what they're doing, because she suddenly just knows what a threat they are, when in the past it seemed like there was only the faintest hints of what they were up to (holy run on sentence Batman).

Honestly, Twilight will never make sense. Questions will be answered but Twilight will never make sense. As for how Buffy knows what she knows, look back to the star of the Time of Your Life arc, then you are going to be looking at the rest of the Retreat arc , the Twilight Arc and finally, another stand alone that I don't want to mention because it is completely spoilerish. Once you finish Retreat you'll know a lot more.

 

[Steven123]

No. I debated getting them but never actually went for it. I don't think I would be able to get into the comics anywhere near as much as I did the T.V series. I may have a read of 1/2 online and see if that changes my mind.

 

[Buffy Summers]

I would say pick up The Chain. If you don't like that one you won't like series.

 

[The Ferg]

The "Predators and Prey" storyline, when Buffy and Andrew go off on some far-flung mission to fight some loosely defined demon. I had NO idea who that rogue Slayer was, the one with the pink mohawk and Faith-lite attitude. I went back through some past volumes of S8 and couldn't find any mention of her. I figured I must have just missed something and kept reading, but I just didn't get who she was at all.

Yea I agree, Simone kinda came out of nowhere. To be fair though, she made 3 appearances according to Buffy wikia [The Long Way Home #2, The Chain (Only in flashbacks), A Beautiful Sunset (only on video screen)]

In "Retreat", I'm through the first two issues, and I don't understand how the Twilight organization, or whatever it is, has managed to assemble a demon and modern military army. Sometimes Twilight seems like one guy, sometimes it seems like a group. There's been very little exposition as to how they're doing what they're doing, and how Buffy knows what they're doing, because she suddenly just knows what a threat they are, when in the past it seemed like there was only the faintest hints of what they were up to (holy run on sentence Batman).

Umm.. I kind of agree with you. More exposition would definitely be helpful, but it makes sense. All through Predators and Prey we're shown how EVERYONE (the media, regular humans, vampires, the military, even Slayers) is against Buffy and co, and also how Buffy is dealing with. In Time of Your Life, Twilight blows up Buffy's castle. She knows he's very, VERY strong from A Beautiful Sunset. And finally, in Long Way Home, the Scoobies find out a) they have a genius, Warren, b) they have a badass witch, Amy, and c) they have entire military behind them... A lot of people really hate Slayers during S8.

Could we all try to remember that whether we think it's easy or hard to follow the comics, that can be different for each person, so the fact that you think differently than someone else does not make them WRONG. Thank you.

If you're talking about me, I was merely saying it was easy to see what you have to read. As in, it's not hard to find which issues to read to get the whole season. I'm not arguing that some people don't find it hard to follow the comics. I definitely did the first time I read them.

A recapitulation of events from AtS at the very least. Besides, Spike crossed-over to AtS and became an AtS character, he really shouldn't be in BtVS anything. It completely ruins his season 7 arc, it's another case of fried heroically, returns next season like nothing happened. Eh, what a garbage.

Eh.. I kind of agree. Spike should've stayed on Angel, yea, but it really does make sense that Spike shows up. All through AS5 he talked about seeing Buffy. Pretend that Buffy and Angel are real for a second... If I was Spike I would definitely go and see Buffy. Bringing him back to life was pretty lame to begin with, but we don't blame AS5... Spike's alive... then what happens? Oh, I bet he would go see Buffy... :/

 

[Robb Stark]

Umm.. I kind of agree with you. More exposition would definitely be helpful, but it makes sense. All through Predators and Prey we're shown how EVERYONE (the media, regular humans, vampires, the military, even Slayers) is against Buffy and co, and also how Buffy is dealing with. In Time of Your Life, Twilight blows up Buffy's castle. She knows he's very, VERY strong from A Beautiful Sunset. And finally, in Long Way Home, the Scoobies find out a) they have a genius, Warren, b) they have a badass witch, Amy, and c) they have entire military behind them... A lot of people really hate Slayers during S8.

Right, I did forget about the military being in on Twilight. One thing I didn't understand either. At the beginning of Predators and Prey, the Harmony issue to be specific, the entire world just suddenly seems to know that vampires exist, and I don't really remember that being unveiled previously (although, it's entirely possible that I could have missed it, I would like to go back and read them straight through). That seems like something that would have been a pretty big deal.

Eh.. I kind of agree. Spike should've stayed on Angel, yea, but it really does make sense that Spike shows up. All through AS5 he talked about seeing Buffy. Pretend that Buffy and Angel are real for a second... If I was Spike I would definitely go and see Buffy. Bringing him back to life was pretty lame to begin with, but we don't blame AS5... Spike's alive... then what happens? Oh, I bet he would go see Buffy... :/

I agree with this (well, except the Spike coming back part. I liked him on Angel a lot) for the most part. It does make sense that if Spike alive, he would seek out Buffy, especially after the events in "After the Fall", in which he plays a pretty major role. I liked that he was a huge part of that and didn't just jump straight into Buffy's book. One of my big hopes with the comics is that there will be a lot more of Angel in Buffy and vice-versa, because without the network problems the show encountered, there's really no logical reason at this point that they shouldn't be big parts of each other's missions and lives (and Spike to of course. I'm a big Spike fan).

 

[The Ferg]

Right, I did forget about the military being in on Twilight. One thing I didn't understand either. At the beginning of Predators and Prey, the Harmony issue to be specific, the entire world just suddenly seems to know that vampires exist, and I don't really remember that being unveiled previously (although, it's entirely possible that I could have missed it, I would like to go back and read them straight through). That seems like something that would have been a pretty big deal.

I just finished a reread of Twilight and it explains a lot of the confusion you had about Twilight.
I think the whole world-knowing-about-vampires-thing is introduced in Harmonic Divergence. Harmony's reality show introduced the world to vampire I believe.

I agree with this (well, except the Spike coming back part. I liked him on Angel a lot) for the most part. It does make sense that if Spike alive, he would seek out Buffy, especially after the events in "After the Fall", in which he plays a pretty major role. I liked that he was a huge part of that and didn't just jump straight into Buffy's book. One of my big hopes with the comics is that there will be a lot more of Angel in Buffy and vice-versa, because without the network problems the show encountered, there's really no logical reason at this point that they shouldn't be big parts of each other's missions and lives (and Spike to of course. I'm a big Spike fan).

Yea, I totally love Spike in Angel 🙂rolleyes🙂 as well. I'm just saying the plot device of bringing a character back from the dead is lame. But I guess it's hard to even say that because Spike's involvement in AS5 and AtF was completely awesome.
I think they should start crossing over as well. My first idea after finishing S8 was that Angel's curse was going to be lifted from being all Twilighty and Bangel would get together during S9 at some point.

 

[Xin Rong]

It's actually really not that hard. If you were talking about comics in general, then yea.. I kind of agree, but Buffy is pretty streamlined. There are a few spin-offs but you don't need to read them unless you just really want to.
Buffy: Season 8, issues 1-40,
Buffy: Season 9, issues 1-25,
Angel: After the Fall (Season 6), issues 1-17, and
Angel & Faith (Season 7), issues 1-25.

Seems pretty simple to me.

That's because your probably a comic book reader in general, whereas I am not. So remembering to buy 4 comics a month that are released on different days, when I have work, children, volunteer work and university to work around. So yes it may be 'simple' but it's definitely not as simple as watching tv episodes.

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=5973]Black Eye Guy[/MENTION]

Where'd you get the sales information from, just asking cuz I was looking for detailed information just like that, but the information had different sales figures to your information.

That's because the graph you posted is garbage. The data from the source the author supposedly used doesn't match that on the graph. According to the graph Buffy #1 sold ~160 000 copies but according to the actual data the author references ( http://www.icv2.com/articles/home/10404.html ) it sold only 109,919, like on my graph.

 

[Kean]

I think that other graph could possibly be using total sales rather than monthly sales.

 

[iShower4free]

I read season 9 and Angel and Faith, not usually right when they come out but I am caught up now