Do you miss the old Willow?

[Chosen Enemy]

Do you miss the old Willow? The nerdy, wallflower, longfootstocking, Willow?
Or are you glad with the way she progressed and not sorry that she's changed so much?

 

[BuffyElevated]

I loved Willow the way she was in the beginning of the show. I felt she was much sweeter and charming as the nerdier, more shy Willow. I actually don't like Willow much after Season 5.

 

[Icarium]

Or are you glad with the way she progressed and not sorry that she's changed so much?

I don't know what you mean. The show did end with Restless, right?

Seriously, I think that by turning Willow into a big battery of magic power they lost pretty much most of what made her interesting in the first place. her insecurities were exaggerated to monstrous proportions, she lost about 200 IQ points, and her cute mannerism started to look more and more out of place the more the writers flirted with the idea of Dark Willow.

 

[brinkster130]

I loved old Willow. She was intelligent, kindhearted, rational, unique and loyal. She lost most of those qualities when they turned her into the mega witch.

 

[Kean]

Willow S1-3? Genuine contender for my favourite character. Willow S4-7? Held in the same esteem I hold Spike.

In my opinion, they ruined her after high school.

 

[Skytteflickan88]

While I agree with pretty much everything said above, because I do miss a lot of her old qualities and dislike some new ones, specially since I used to be able to identify with her(I was shy and bullied in school as well and liked witchcraft), I'm glad that she did change.

I'd rather be mad at her and shake my head at her actions than be bored with her, which I might have if she hadn't changed too much.

I would probably have liked if she got another arc though. One where she didn't behave quite as selfish and dumb at times.

Some thing did improve though. She became more confident. As much as I loved shy Willow, she did have to "grow up" some day. I still shake my head a bit when she's nude and fine with it in season 8, but I think it was the right decision to make her feel fine with it. I just wish it wasn't combined with cheating-like behaviour...

 

[arabella]

I'm with Kean on the "they ruined her after high school" boat. In my own happy little world, her post high school character would have been more similar to Alyson's character Michelle's in American Pie 2-3. (Obviously not exactly the same)

 

[woogirl]

It depends. I loved nerdy Willow who was such a sweetheart. Her longhair and outfits were great. But strong Willow is also good but less likeable.

 

[zobothehobo]

I love Willow. I love seasons 1-3 Willow and I love seasons 4-7 Willow. Yes, I even love season 7 Willow. Seriously, in the first three seasons, Willow's my favorite character. (well my favorite main character... in season 2, Spike's my favorite) In season 4, she's my second favorite (second to Spike). In season 5, she's tied with Buffy for second, and in seasons 6 and 7 she's third (third to Spike then Buffy). I love the way they went with her character and I identify with it so much. I wasn't shy like that in high school... but I was my first year of college. I don't know... I just love her story and I identify with it. It wasn't unnatural at all to me.

 

[sisterofmercy]

I liked Willow up until the end of Season 5, then I couldn't stand her.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

I love Willow in all seasons. I'm really surprised that so many people think her character was "ruined." Sure, she went through some difficult times and certainly wasn't at her best in season 6, (I'm obviously not referring to Dark Willow, ultimately inspired by the death of the love of her life, the discussion of which belongs in a separate place, IMO).

Here's what I think about Willow's development: it was believable, and necessary. First of all, if Willow had stayed shy, insecure, girl-like, and (relatively) weak as the rest of the cast grew up, I'm sure we would have all been annoyed. No, Willow needed to become a confident woman who was in touch with her own wants and needs, as she did.

As for how that happened and where it took her? I think her progression toward an obsession with magic was well-earned by the writers and did not feel forced at all. She was the single source among the group for any supernatural force in the face of (most) danger. It was always "Will! Put up the wall!" "Will! Find a way!" It's been clearly established in the 'verse that magic has an incredibly addictive quality, (yes, similar to drugs and alcohol which although overplayed in season 6 makes quite a lot of sense.) Sam points out in "As You Were" that a powerful wicca she knew succumbed to it, and she was impressed by Willow's determination to control herself. Character points for Will, in my book. Anyway, the notion that a young girl who is counted upon to perform spells to save her loved ones on a daily basis would then develop a dangerous addiction and take a downward spiral, personality-wise, makes total sense to me and always felt organic. When that happened, was her character more selfish, less likable? Yes. But it was part of growing up. She was figuring herself out, and still is.

I'm not sure at all where the hate comes in in seasons 4 and 5. She's still sweet, kind, loveable Willow-- no addiction or bad habits in sight. She's simply self assured and proud to have found herself a bit. What's wrong with that?? Did we want to see more stuttering? I'm confused.

 

[sk]

In a way I miss her. High school Willow was great. One of the sweetest characters I've ever seen.

But that doesn't mean I don't like her in the later seasons.
Willow was still Willow for me. 🙂

/SK

 

[Icarium]

Here's what I think about Willow's development: it was believable, and necessary. First of all, if Willow had stayed shy, insecure, girl-like, and (relatively) weak as the rest of the cast grew up, I'm sure we would have all been annoyed. No, Willow needed to become a confident woman who was in touch with her own wants and needs, as she did.

I call strawman. Willow was already quite confident and had had plenty of development as of S4.

It's been clearly established in the 'verse that magic has an incredibly addictive quality

Yes...only it happened about six years too late. It's like writing a fantasy version of "The Wire" and only bothering to establish that drugs in that universe are addictive in season five (yes, I know, bad example but I hope you get my drift).

Anyway, the notion that a young girl who is counted upon to perform spells to save her loved ones on a daily basis would then develop a dangerous addiction and take a downward spiral, personality-wise, makes total sense to me and always felt organic.

Daily basis? Really? If Buffy had developed an addiction to staking would you have said this was organic too?

Willow S1-3? Genuine contender for my favourite character. Willow S4-7? Held in the same esteem I hold Spike.

In my opinion, they ruined her after high school.

What's wrong with S4 Willow? Well, except for ignoring Xander quite a bit but Buffy did the same and I haven't seen many fans dislike her for it all that much.

 

[Kean]

What's wrong with S4 Willow? Well, except for ignoring Xander quite a bit but Buffy did the same and I haven't seen many fans dislike her for it all that much.

S4 was the beginning of Willow's free fall for me, when she first started to show signs of it, so that's why I include it.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

I call strawman. Willow was already quite confident and had had plenty of development as of S4.

1- "Strawman?" How? People are arguing that they want the Willow of season 1-3, (i.e. lacking in confidence but super adorable and sweet.) My stance addresses that. She needed to develop, period.

2- Yes, she had done some growing up and developing by season 4. But she was 18, then. If she'd stopped, again...ridiculous. Also, I don't think she was very confident at all in that season, (how many freshmen are?) but she was getting there.

Yes...only it happened about six years too late.

Fair enough but does nothing to take away from the reasons for which it was easy for Willow to become addicted. Setting up the rules late in the game to explain a character's habits still explains a character's habits. It just makes us raise an eyebrow at the writing style.

Daily basis? Really? If Buffy had developed an addiction to staking would you have said this was organic too?

Daily may be an exaggeration, but, certainly more than once a week. If staking, specifically, was established to be addictive like magic, then yes I would have said it was organic and reasonable for Buffy to become addicted to staking. As it is, she is afraid she is becoming too much of a cold, unavailable "killer" whose calling is beginning to define her, which is not too dissimilar to what happens to Willow.

 

[wickedtiger86]

I struggle with how I feel about Willow a lot. Most of the time I really like her, but when she took Tara's memories . . .I have a really hard time with that. It bothers me more than anything else she did, including skinning people!!

I don't actually understand why I feel that way and it bothers me.

Other than that, I love to watch her and her development. She is interesting.

And I do love high school Willow. So so much. She was a lot like I was in high school. Except that I learned things for fun from books and didn't care to much about the testing systems in schools. . .

 

[Icarium]

1- "Strawman?" How? People are arguing that they want the Willow of season 1-3, (i.e. lacking in confidence but super adorable and sweet.) My stance addresses that. She needed to develop, period.

I don't see anyone demanding Willow to remain lacking in confidence no matter what. The strawman lies in you presenting the choice for Willow as one between a radical change and no change at all.

Yes, she had done some growing up and developing by season 4. But she was 18, then. If she'd stopped, again...ridiculous.

Again, no one said "No change at all". Willow could have changed plenty without turning into a not so bright joke of a character whose only function in the story is to cast spell from time to time and to obsess about her love life.

Fair enough but does nothing to take away from the reasons for which it was easy for Willow to become addicted.

Sure it does as the show presented the addiction as something that basically surprised everybody, in other words made everyone, Willow in particular look like complete idiots. If they did a storyline where Xander becomes an alcoholic and everyone showed great surprise that alcoholism existed at all, I doubt many would have said this was a compelling and believable storyline. Sam Finn have to explain what magic addiction is exactly to a group of people consisting of two witches and Anya who started casting spells more than a millennium ago is well, insane.

S4 was the beginning of Willow's free fall for me, when she first started to show signs of it, so that's why I include it.

Yes, I get that but what were those signs exactly?

 

[Skytteflickan88]

I struggle with how I feel about Willow a lot. Most of the time I really like her, but when she took Tara's memories . . .I have a really hard time with that. It bothers me more than anything else she did, including skinning people!!

I don't actually understand why I feel that way and it bothers me.

Not sure why you feel weird about having a hard time with that. It's a violation of trust and a violation of Tara's mind.

We are our memories. I would not be the same person if I one day woke up, not remembering certain fights I had. Small change, big change, it doesn't matter. I would be changed. To have someone I love do that too me because they can't cope with dealing with arguments in a healthy way? I can imagine it, and I hate the idea. It makes me think of rape and brain washing done by cults and that says something.

I could have accepted it if Willow had stopped when Tara said it was a violation and that it reminded her of what Glory did. Before them, she could have been blamed for stupidity, not cruelty. But doing it again? Unacceptable. And still to this day, I don't know if Willow ever regretted it. Did she regret getting caught and becoming addicted to magic? Probably. Does she regret taking the easy way out, ignoring her girlfriends feelings? I hope so.

She used magic to do lots of bad things. The question is, does she regret those things, or using magic to do those things? If magic had been safer to use, would Willow still use her power over people? Was she not only addicted to magic, but to power and control?

 

[zobothehobo]

Yes...only it happened about six years too late. It's like writing a fantasy version of "The Wire" and only bothering to establish that drugs in that universe are addictive in season five (yes, I know, bad example but I hope you get my drift).

But I don't think it has to be pointed out specifically. I mean, i think there were enough hints to it. How many times in seasons 2-5 did Giles or someone else tell Willow NOT to try a certain spell or calm down with the magic? Plus, it should be common knowledge to us that they are humans. And power is addictive to humans. And magic is essentially power. So magic = addictive. I don't understand why so many people (not just you) have such an issue with magic being an addictive thing... So what if it wasn't explicitly said before season 6? Everything in this show that happened wasn't explicitly said before it happened.

 

[wickedtiger86]

Not sure why you feel weird about having a hard time with that. It's a violation of trust and a violation of Tara's mind.

We are our memories. I would not be the same person if I one day woke up, not remembering certain fights I had. Small change, big change, it doesn't matter. I would be changed. To have someone I love do that too me because they can't cope with dealing with arguments in a healthy way? I can imagine it, and I hate the idea. It makes me think of rape and brain washing done by cults and that says something.

I could have accepted it if Willow had stopped when Tara said it was a violation and that it reminded her of what Glory did. Before them, she could have been blamed for stupidity, not cruelty. But doing it again? Unacceptable. And still to this day, I don't know if Willow ever regretted it. Did she regret getting caught and becoming addicted to magic? Probably. Does she regret taking the easy way out, ignoring her girlfriends feelings? I hope so.

She used magic to do lots of bad things. The question is, does she regret those things, or using magic to do those things? If magic had been safer to use, would Willow still use her power over people? Was she not only addicted to magic, but to power and control?

All of this exactly is what I grapple with, with her character.

I was only confused about the fact that her mind manipulation bothered me MORE than when she skinned Warren.

But all of this, everything you said, is why. So thank you. 😀

And it's because she starts out so innocent. Underneath that exterior was the drive and ability to do these horrible things. And that is what is so upsetting about her character for me.

If she was capable of these actions, then who isn't?