Do you miss the old Willow?

[Skytteflickan88]

I was only confused about the fact that her mind manipulation bothered me MORE than when she skinned Warren.

I feel the same way, but I don't feel weird about it.

For one, he had it coming. Tara didn't. An eye for an eye.

Second, Willow did the mind spell when she was upset, in a very normal way when her conscience should have been working just fine, while the skinning happened when the magic had overwhelmed her and she was crazy with grief.

That's how I rationalize it.

 

[Icarium]

. How many times in seasons 2-5 did Giles or someone else tell Willow NOT to try a certain spell or calm down with the magic?

How many times was it implied it's because magic is addictive? Zero. The warnings were because magic is the supernatural equivalent of say explosives - a useful, but dangerous tool. If you watch a show where a character is repeatedly warned to be careful with explosives, you wouldn't say a storyline involving him becoming physically addicted to say nitroglycerine or the sound of explosions would make sense in that context, would you?

So what if it wasn't explicitly said before season 6? Everything in this show that happened wasn't explicitly said before it happened.

Internal consistency is paramount in fantasy stories. especially when the lack of it makes everyone looks like morons.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

I don't see anyone demanding Willow to remain lacking in confidence no matter what. The strawman lies in you presenting the choice for Willow as one between a radical change and no change at all.

Nobody literally demanded that she stay lacking in confidence. They implied this however when they said that she should stay "cute, innocent, shy, nerdy." These qualities suggest a lack of growth and a continued lack of confidence. I didn't exactly go nuts with jumping to conclusions when I read that. I took a small step and there conclusions were. Most importantly? I never said there had to be a choice between radical change and no change! Seriously, that's a bit of a strawman argument on your end. Also, I don't happen to think her change was radical. And I think others are basically asking for no change. Hence, my initial response.

Again, no one said "No change at all". Willow could have changed plenty without turning into a not so bright joke of a character whose only function in the story is to cast spell from time to time and to obsess about her love life.

First of all, yes, that is what I inferred from what people were saying. They like Willow in seasons 1-3 and with the specific characteristics that were referenced as needing to "remain," it would have basically meant that Willow didn't develop. And you think she turned into a joke of a character, I think she was becoming an interesting, self assured woman. But at least we agree that she needed to become other than what she was.

Sure it does as the show presented the addiction as something that basically surprised everybody, in other words made everyone, Willow in particular look like complete idiots.

As Zobo pointed out in another post, season 6 is the point at which they hit us over the head with it. It's suggested quite often throughout the show. In any case, I think that even if it was never, ever known to any character on the show that magic was highly addictive and we didn't find out until season 6, it would still sufficiently explain what had happened to Willow, and the scoobies would have gone, "Oh...whoops" which would have been more to their credit than "Oh yeah we knew it was a terrible idea but we had to constantly insist that Willow use magic for years and now we're surprised that she's addicted," which was the reality.

 

[brinkster130]

Here's what I think about Willow's development: it was believable, and necessary. First of all, if Willow had stayed shy, insecure, girl-like, and (relatively) weak as the rest of the cast grew up, I'm sure we would have all been annoyed. No, Willow needed to become a confident woman who was in touch with her own wants and needs, as she did.

For starters, I think Willow was much much more than just a shy, insecure, girl-like, weak character in the early seasons. Sure she was lacking in the confidence as far as social aspects are concerned but she was far from the weak link in the Scoobies. She was smart, she thought through their problems and found solutions and she was a loyal friend who thought about others around her. For her character to become a confident women shouldn't have meant she had to lose aspects of her intelligence, go on a power trip and become selfish.

Did we want to see more stuttering? I'm confused.

I highly doubt anyone is saying that. People are just disappointed when her character lost so many good qualities that initially made them fall in love with her.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

Sure she was lacking in the confidence as far as social aspects are concerned but she was far from the weak link in the Scoobies. She was smart, she thought through their problems and found solutions and she was a loyal friend who thought about others around her.

Wait, I'm the one saying I loved Willow in all seasons, LOL! Of course I think she was smart, loyal, and an incredible character in seasons 1-3. She was one of my favorites for sure. And I didn't mean to suggest that she was one of the weakest of the scoobies--that came out wrong. Certainly they'd have been lost without her. But as a girl, on her way to becoming a woman--she was truly lacking in a lot of personal aspects when it came to her confidence, ability to stand up for herself, and knowledge about who she was and what she needed from other people. My point was that it sounds like a lot of people wanted her to retain some of those qualities which made her weaker. She needed to outgrow them.

For her character to become a confident women shouldn't have meant she had to lose aspects of her intelligence, go on a power trip and become selfish.

I agree, but I didn't think she lost any intelligence at all. And as I stated, I think the power trip was directly linked with what she was expected to do--extraordinary circumstances. I don't fault her for it. And the selfishness? With the exception of Tabula Rasa I seriously don't think her behavior was any more selfish than that of anyone else on the show, except for maybe Tara. I can't stress that enough.

I highly doubt anyone is saying that. People are just disappointed when her character lost so many good qualities that initially made them fall in love with her.

I was being a bit facetious, sorry. But saying that we want Willow to stay innocent and shy and nerdy isn't so far from saying that we want her to stutter, with a lack of confidence.

 

[Icarium]

Nobody literally demanded that she stay lacking in confidence. They implied this however when they said that she should stay "cute, innocent, shy, nerdy."

As far as I can see nobody said that. Liking early Willow more than late Willow is not the same as demanding Willow stay absolutely the same at all cost. For all we know it's entirely possible for the people who posted above to have loved a hypothetical not so cute, innocent, shy or nerdy Willow. For instance, many fans love S6 Tara, I have almost never heard anyone complain that she was better when she stuttered more and didn't wear leather jackets.

Also, you want to have it both ways. You insist that Willow needed to change early on but you don't seem to object much to her behaviour later on. Call me crazy but mindwiping and trying to end the world annoys me as a viewer far more than a character being, shock and horror, shy and nerdy.

Furthermore, I think you are exaggerating Willow's shyness. She didn't stutter, she was friends with Amy and a friendly acquaintance to quite a few other students (like Chris from SAR), tutored other students, she even took over teaching Jenny's classes. She could and did tell people off when she felt it was necessary (Giles and Angel in Reptile Boy, Xander in Prophecy Girl, Buffy in Dead Man's party, Faith in Choices, Parker in Beer Bad, etc), so I very much object to describing her as some wallflower who cringed in the corner whenever anyone as much as looked at her.

Most importantly? I never said there had to be a choice between radical change and no change!

No? How about this quote: "First of all, if Willow had stayed shy, insecure, girl-like, and (relatively) weak as the rest of the cast grew up, I'm sure we would have all been annoyed. ".

As Zobo pointed out in another post, season 6 is the point at which they hit us over the head with it. It's suggested quite often throughout the show.

No, it's not.

In any case, I think that even if it was never, ever known to any character on the show that magic was highly addictive and we didn't find out until season 6, it would still sufficiently explain what had happened to Willow, and the scoobies would have gone, "Oh...whoops" which would have been more to their credit than "Oh yeah we knew it was a terrible idea but we had to constantly insist that Willow use magic for years and now we're surprised that she's addicted," which was the reality.

Any way you slice it they end up looking like idiots. If they didn't know magic is addictive when even Amy the rat and Spike (IIRC) knew where to find Rack's magiccrack den then they are so incompetent they deserve a Darwin award. If they did know and nobody tried to intervene and stop Willow before she "overdosed" then they are idiots too.

My point was that it sounds like a lot of people wanted her to retain some of those qualities which made her weaker. She needed to outgrow them.

And did she? If anything she is far more insecure and lacking direction in S6-7 than in S1.

I agree, but I didn't think she lost any intelligence at all.

Can you name anything smart that Willow did in S7? I can't.

And the selfishness? With the exception of Tabula Rasa I seriously don't think her behavior was any more selfish than that of anyone else on the show, except for maybe Tara. I can't stress that enough.

Even if you are correct (which I don't think is true), that's not much of an achievement since the rest of the cast became selfish jerks too. And still, none of them tried to wipe out the entire world just because they felt like dying.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

As far as I can see nobody said that. Liking early Willow more than late Willow is not the same as demanding Willow stay absolutely the same at all cost.

But saying you wish she'd mostly stayed the same strongly suggests you don't want to have her develop...

You insist that Willow needed to change early on but you don't seem to object much to her behaviour later on.

Um, how is that contradictory, exactly?
Anyway, I don't insist that she needed to change; I insist that she needed to grow up. Like any 16 year old girl. I also don't think she was perfect at any stage. Nor do I think any character was, for goodness sake. Doesn't mean I can't like her the whole way through.

Call me crazy but mindwiping and trying to end the world annoys me as a viewer far more than a character being, shock and horror, shy and nerdy.

Well, interestingly enough in my last post I cited Tabula Rasa as an example of something exceptionally selfish that she did, (meaning I had a huge problem with it), but it doesn't mean I stopped liking her as a character for it. And again, who said I had a problem with her being shy and nerdy? There was a time and place for it. If Willow was still shy and nerdy at 21 I'd have been rolling my eyes and I think you would have been too.

I think you are exaggerating Willow's shyness. She didn't stutter,

Actually, she did stutter. It's sort of a trademark for her character. She does do it in later seasons though, so perhaps not an airtight bit of information for me to point out.

so I very much object to describing her as some wallflower who cringed in the corner whenever anyone as much as looked at her.

I did that? Wow, don't remember that happening. What I do remember saying is that she had a long way to go to becoming a self-assured, confident woman, and I stand by that. All of the characters had a lot of growing up to do, and if any of them had stayed the same as they were in high school, she show would have been quite boring and slightly pathetic. And I guess that's the most important point that I'm making, here.

No? How about this quote: "First of all, if Willow had stayed shy, insecure, girl-like, and (relatively) weak as the rest of the cast grew up, I'm sure we would have all been annoyed. "

Hmm, this is the quote you are using to prove that I asked for either no change or radical change? I'm not getting it. To me, it suggests that she needed to change. Grow, develop. Radical? Either/or? Where do you get that from?

No, it's not.

The dangers of magic are referred to on the show, quite often, before "As You Were." Specifics aren't given, but danger is always discussed.

when even Amy the rat and Spike (IIRC) knew where to find Rack's magiccrack den

side note: actually Spike didn't find it. He knew big bads could find it, but he actually never did, (unclear as to whether he didn't have the time or just couldn't, though he certainly had trouble),which I find incredibly interesting and not coincidental, though it of course doesn't belong in this discussion...

If they did know and nobody tried to intervene and stop Willow before she "overdosed" then they are idiots too.

There was a thread a while back about the responsibility of all of the scoobies with regard to Willow's downward descent and addiction. I argued that they were partially to blame, though I didn't think they had an alternative. Idiots? No. In denial? Yes.

If anything she is far more insecure and lacking direction in S6-7 than in S1.

Yes, she is temporarily more insecure and directionless as she battles a grave addiction and the death of her lover. These are circumstantial weaknesses and are independent of the characteristics she had developed up until they occurred.

Can you name anything smart that Willow did in S7? I can't.

Did she do anything Earth-shatteringly intelligent? No. But she is plenty "smart." Can you name anything she did in season 7 to suggest that she actually lost intelligence since earlier seasons? The lack of a great plan doesn't automatically mean loss of smarts.

Even if you are correct (which I don't think is true), that's not much of an achievement since the rest of the cast became selfish jerks too.

I'm not correct? So you think Willow was the most selfish of all the characters, in later seasons? Or maybe you think it was about the same, in which case I'd agree? Yes, they were all selfish. That's my point, exactly. They are a bunch of human beings, (and demons), living on the hellmouth. Selfishness occurs quite often, and no one is immune to it, (except maybe for an underdeveloped Tara). Should we hate all of them?

And still, none of them tried to wipe out the entire world just because they felt like dying.

From the very beginning, I said that Dark Willow had no place in my argument, and thought it should be discussed somewhere else. It was a reaction to a tragedy and should not be used to judge the development of the character of Willow, and whether or not we like her the rest of the time.

 

[brinkster130]

Wait, I'm the one saying I loved Willow in all seasons, LOL! Of course I think she was smart, loyal, and an incredible character in seasons 1-3. She was one of my favorites for sure. And I didn't mean to suggest that she was one of the weakest of the scoobies--that came out wrong. Certainly they'd have been lost without her. But as a girl, on her way to becoming a woman--she was truly lacking in a lot of personal aspects when it came to her confidence, ability to stand up for herself, and knowledge about who she was and what she needed from other people. My point was that it sounds like a lot of people wanted her to retain some of those qualities which made her weaker. She needed to outgrow them.

Ahh, I must have misunderstood what you were saying; it sounded a bit like you were describing Willow negatively in the earlier seasons. Anyways, I agree that there were aspects about her that could have (and did) benefit from her stepping out of her shell a bit and becoming more confident. I didn't think she was as shy or weak as you are describing her. She stood up for herself, was involved in school activities and often voiced her opinions about the problems the Scoobies were facing. I just don't think she needed to outgrow or lose all the characteristics we saw in the earlier seasons.

I agree, but I didn't think she lost any intelligence at all. And as I stated, I think the power trip was directly linked with what she was expected to do--extraordinary circumstances. I don't fault her for it. And the selfishness? With the exception of Tabula Rasa I seriously don't think her behavior was any more selfish than that of anyone else on the show, except for maybe Tara. I can't stress that enough.

This is where we disagree. While I don't think she became dumb, I do think she stopped relying on her smarts to help her out with the Scoobies. She turned to magic and the quickest most obvious solution to the problems they faced often times in doing so she ignored many of the things she once would have thought twice about. An example of this is resurrecting Buffy. It's completely understandable that she was so upset by the loss of her best friend that she would think about bringing Buffy back; but to actually do it is another thing. It hadn't been that long since the whole bringing Joyce back debacle happened and Willow knew things could go wrong...but Willow did it anyway because she wanted Buffy back. IMO that wasn't her brightest idea and it was selfish. Of course the others were selfish also, but this thread isn't about them.

I was being a bit facetious, sorry. But saying that we want Willow to stay innocent and shy and nerdy isn't so far from saying that we want her to stutter, with a lack of confidence.

Yeah I got that, but I don't see why you would assume that by liking Willow in the earlier seasons would be the same thing as wanting her to be shy and weak. I loved seeing Willow step out of her shell and become more confident (development)....I just didn't love seeing her become self centered.

 

[Icarium]

But saying you wish she'd mostly stayed the same strongly suggests you don't want to have her develop...

No, it's not. Note the word "mostly".

. And again, who said I had a problem with her being shy and nerdy? There was a time and place for it. If Willow was still shy and nerdy at 21 I'd have been rolling my eyes and I think you would have been too.

No, I wouldn't. There is nothing wrong with bring shy or nerdy unless you are extremely so and this stops you from properly functioning in society. Willow was never in danger of this happening to her, she had friends, she had a boyfriend, she went out to have fun often - what's the problem, exactly? Plenty of people remain shy or nerdy all their lives and many of them are successful in life. If you don't want a particulr character to be like that, fair enough, but that's personal preference, not something that absolutely needed to happen, lest Willow remained frozen mentally in her teens as you seem to be implying.

Hmm, this is the quote you are using to prove that I asked for either no change or radical change? I'm not getting it. To me, it suggests that she needed to change. Grow, develop. Radical? Either/or? Where do you get that from?

I don't know, maybe from your rather unflattering description of early Willow?

The dangers of magic are referred to on the show, quite often, before "As You Were." Specifics aren't given, but danger is always discussed.

And the dangers of driving too fast are known to everybody but that doesn't mean people think they are in danger of getting high when they push the pedal a little too much, does it? For more detailed rebuttal please see my explosives example above.

All of the characters had a lot of growing up to do, and if any of them had stayed the same as they were in high school, she show would have been quite boring and slightly pathetic.

Again with the strawman. Becoming almost unrecognizable is not the only alternative to staying totally the same, you know.

Yes, she is temporarily more insecure and directionless as she battles a grave addiction and the death of her lover. These are circumstantial weaknesses and are independent of the characteristics she had developed up until they occurred.

Really? And why was she addicted in the first place? Because she was dumb enough to think magic is the only thing she was good for. How is that for a lack of confidence?

I'm not correct? So you think Willow was the most selfish of all the characters, in later seasons?

No, I think she isn't the least selfish.

Can you name anything she did in season 7 to suggest that she actually lost intelligence since earlier seasons?

Sure I can (despite trying desperately to bleach my brain of all memories of that season):

- Going to the wicka group in "The Killer in Me". Yes, I know they somehow turned out to be actual witches but as far as we Willow knew they were just a bunch of wannablessedbes.
- Not telling Buffy to shove her Chosen plan right up her ass.
- Picking Faith for a leader.
- Looking for secret government information with google.
- Going along with Buffy's suicidally dumb plan in Showtime.
- "I suck at Latin"
- Not sending Andrew to jail where he belonged.

From the very beginning, I said that Dark Willow had no place in my argument, and thought it should be discussed somewhere else. It was a reaction to a tragedy and should not be used to judge the development of the character of Willow, and whether or not we like her the rest of the time.

Believe me, I'd much rather use the Lethe's Bramble and forget all about Dull Willow if I could, but I think it would be ridiculous to talk about the problems with later seasons Willow without considering those three episodes.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

Ahh, I must have misunderstood what you were saying; it sounded a bit like you were describing Willow negatively in the earlier seasons.

What I mean to say is that there were certain characteristics that Willow possessed in high school that were holding her back. When she broke away from them, I thought it was wonderful. But I never meant that I didn't like her in high school.

I do think she stopped relying on her smarts to help her out with the Scoobies. She turned to magic and the quickest most obvious solution to the problems they faced often times in doing so she ignored many of the things she once would have thought twice about.

I agree completely, and just as I find certain aspects of her character to be negative in 1-3, I find plenty in later seasons as well. More so, in fact. But I love her in every season, in any case. With regard to relying less on her smarts, I chalk that all up to the addiction problem. From my perspective, her struggle with addiction was less about her character and development as a woman, but instead an unfortunate downside to living on the hellmouth and being the one person who is expected to work with highly addictive magic on a regular basis. So all aspects of her personality that stem from this I feel can be explained by something much larger than her that was temporarily out of her control, and I understand it.

I don't see why you would assume that by liking Willow in the earlier seasons would be the same thing as wanting her to be shy and weak. I loved seeing Willow step out of her shell and become more confident (development)....I just didn't love seeing her become self centered.

I don't assume that; I myself like early season Willow and loved to see her grow up as well. In any case, I'm speaking more to the arguments that call for keeping Willow as she is, to which I respond "but how can she grow up?" That's all I mean.

Plenty of people remain shy or nerdy all their lives and many of them are successful in life.

Yes, of course. And if Willow had stayed shy and nerdy but had grown confident and more aware of her wants and needs, (as she really started to do in 3 and 4--the later seasons were full of both growths and setbacks), that would be fine. But my main argument is for character growth, especially when it comes to entertainment value. It is one thing for a character, (or a person), to remain shy and nerdy after high school but another for them to not grow at all. If Willow was the exact same Willow in every season, I'd have been bored. If Buffy was the exact same Buffy, I'd have been bored, and so on. That's all I'm saying; this isn't some sort of major stance on how I think adults should behave, in general, (though I certainly think adding confidence and assertiveness to a personality generally lacking in them is always healthy).

I don't know, maybe from your rather unflattering description of early Willow?

Unflattering? I said this about Willow in a previous post: "Of course I think she was smart, loyal, and an incredible character in seasons 1-3. She was one of my favorites for sure." But then I also said she was shy, lacking in confidence, and needed to grow. I wouldn't call that unflattering.

Again with the strawman.

I think you like to call strawman when someone is trying to summarize their thoughts into one phrase and it looks like a new argument or an avoidance, to you. I summarized my thoughts by stating that none of the characters should have stayed as they were in high school. It's not exactly going to win awards for most radical statement on the boards.

Becoming almost unrecognizable is not the only alternative to staying totally the same, you know.

When did I say that Willow was unrecognizable, or that I thought she needed to be unrecognizable as an alternative to how she was in early seasons? That's your take on her development, and it's unfair to insert it into my argument.

And why was she addicted in the first place? Because she was dumb enough to think magic is the only thing she was good for. How is that for a lack of confidence?

Well I give her more credit than that. Again, I think she was a victim of circumstance and she didn't handle it well for a while. (And it doesn't help contradict the notion that your value lies in something specific when your loved ones are constantly relying on you to do that very thing). And as with any human being, her development had peaks and valleys. It was doing great in 4 and 5 and really struggled in 6. It doesn't change how I feel about the character.

I agree that Willow does some less than brilliant things in 7. But a lot of them are mistakes and don't automatically point to a loss of intelligence. Then again, it depends on how you define the word. Buffy and Willow for example are both incredibly intelligent but in different ways. She certainly isn't written as the brainy Willow of the past in this season. But I think there are reasons for that, other than a lack of intelligence.

 

[dexeded]

Love high school Willow. Was 'meh' about her after that.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

Yes, I really do miss that Willow. I loved that Willow. The new Willow.. I don't care about her as much as I did for the old one.

 

[Taake]

Yes, a lot. I'm kind of 'over' Willow by now. As a character she doesn't interest me at all, I thought about it the other day and I realized it's because I think she's lost all of her old charm. She's too busy being 'cool' now...

 

[JCoatsworth]

Yes I miss "plain, old Willow." I like her in Season 6 a lot, but in Season 7, she's just not herself.
Well, that's understandable, when you think about what happened in Season 6, but I'm watching Season 7 at the moment and I sometimes think, "Willow wouldn't do that."
And I once again noticed what a big mistake Kennedy was, in my opinion.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

Another question on the subject. I see that almost everybody wishes Willow had stayed the old Willow. However, characters need to develop somewhere. Do you wish they had developed her to another direction? Or not develop her at all so she'd stay the Willow that we love most?

 

[brinkster130]

With regard to relying less on her smarts, I chalk that all up to the addiction problem. From my perspective, her struggle with addiction was less about her character and development as a woman, but instead an unfortunate downside to living on the hellmouth and being the one person who is expected to work with highly addictive magic on a regular basis. So all aspects of her personality that stem from this I feel can be explained by something much larger than her that was temporarily out of her control, and I understand it.

And this is where our opinions differ, while you see it as something directly related to her struggles with magic addiction, I see it as something that had slowly progressed as her focus shifted more and more to herself. I guess well just have to agree to disagree about that aspect of Willow. 🙂

Another question on the subject. I see that almost everybody wishes Willow had stayed the old Willow. However, characters need to develop somewhere. Do you wish they had developed her to another direction? Or not develop her at all so she'd stay the Willow that we love most?

I think her character could have developed while still retaining some of the characteristics that so many people have said they missed. I don't think anyone here is suggesting that her character should have never matured or developed; they are simply saying that they miss her old charm, quirkiness and kindhearted attitude.

 

[Washburne]

The early Willow were adorably cute and nerdy in a way that later Willow isn't. Who can resist that? Not me. But I like her growth, hate her mistakes and horrible decisions but that's what you learn most from. It's a part of growing up. Sure I can miss it, the same way I can look back and miss parts of my own past. To be a kid again and all that. In the end though, growth is needed. She could have stayed more the same but if I miss it too much I just watch the early episodes again. 😉

 

[Icarium]

Okay, I am tired of throwing quotes back and forth, so I will try to make my position clear instead.

First, I do not want Willow to have remained frozen in her her 16 year old persona forever. I am very tired of the sadly too common tactics of deflecting any and all accusations towards the (bad) development of characters by claiming it was either that or them remaining absolutely the same. For instance, I am yet to see a single Willow fan whose reaction to Halloween is "Crap, why did she have to order people around and ditched the ghost costume in the end? I need her to remain shy and lacking in confidence, damn it!". So yes, I would appreciate it if we can agree that it's not change per se that people object to in Willow's case but the particular kind of change she underwent. Otherwise, one starts wondering how the heck are Wesley and Spike so popular since they changed just as much, if not more than Willow.

Second, I think Taake is on to something with the remark of Willow being all about the cool now. Or more accurately the writers getting bored with Willow's primary role being that of research-girl and Buffy's emotional support. After S4 the latter role was taken over by Dawn and Spike (I need a wall in which to hit my head) and the former was pretty much abandoned altogether as research was rarely useful for anything. Not coincidentally S5 is also the point where Willow suddenly became far more powerful than Tara and her magic much more important for the group's survival. Whenever she is not casting spells, she is usually quite irrelevant to the plot which is in sharp contrast to the "weak" early Willow who was heavily involved in the A-plot of almost every S1-3 episode.

It's this loss of real substance exchanged for yet another Jossian "X goes dark" storyline that annoys me the most. No Joss, it's not very original to follow Buffy's boyfriend betrays her, Buffy's fellow Slayer betrays her, Buffy's mother betrays her, so does her mentor, her teacher (Walsh), The Watcher's Council, her dad, etc, with her best friend betrays her. Can you say overkill? And I think that relegating Willow to the background after her trying to destroy the world speaks volumes about the lack of depth and writers attention in her story. She more or less became a toy that's only needed when she was being "cool" or "dark", and was being discarded the rest of the time. Magic itself turned from "boring" rituals requiring magic supplies, long research and preparation to Willow waving a hand and making things happen based on pure strength. So instead of intellectual, albeit supernatural, pursuit similar to chemistry, it became just a measure of how innately powerful one happened to be and who wanted the win more, so Willow didn't need to use her brain any more.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

And this is where our opinions differ, while you see it as something directly related to her struggles with magic addiction, I see it as something that had slowly progressed as her focus shifted more and more to herself.

I think this is a great way of pointing out the differences in how we view what happened to Willow; I think your view makes a lot of sense, and I never saw it that way. I guess I saw the addiction start to coincide with the slightly more exaggerated selfishness so I linked them together. A bit of a chicken/egg debate! But really interesting.

I think her character could have developed while still retaining some of the characteristics that so many people have said they missed. I don't think anyone here is suggesting that her character should have never matured or developed; they are simply saying that they miss her old charm, quirkiness and kindhearted attitude.

I didn't take away from what you said that you were one of the fans who'd wished she stayed exactly the same. But initially when I read people's harsh criticisms of a later season Willow, the characteristics they'd wished she'd retained, and statements like "her character was ruined," it sparked a very strong instinct to defend her journey, (she certainly wasn't "ruined" for me!), and I did infer that many posters wished she'd retained much of her high school persona at the expense of becoming a strong woman, which bothered me.

I am very tired of the sadly too common tactics of deflecting any and all accusations towards the (bad) development of characters by claiming it was either that or them remaining absolutely the same.

It's funny that you keep accusing me of feeling this way toward Willow. I never once said that it was either/or, as I keep repeating. I wanted certain aspects of the loveable early season Willow to stay, but I'm not unhappy with the woman she turned out to be. I honestly don't understand why you think I'm suggesting anything else. But then again, it's not easy to communicate very well sometimes in this medium.

So yes, I would appreciate it if we can agree that it's not change per se that people object to in Willow's case but the particular kind of change she underwent.

Seriously, I think your anger is misdirected toward me, where this is concerned. I'm pointing out that I think people did mostly want her to have not changed. That's what I took away from the posts I read. What you're upset about is the possibility that people do feel that way, and listen, I'm not one of those people. So why get upset with me for pointing out that there are those who may think that? You're making the point clearly now that you're not one of those people, and I get that.

Bottom line: neither you nor I think Willow should have stayed the same. You can't stand who she became, and I think that though she certainly wasn't perfect and I would have written her differently, I am more or less happy with her development and, more to the point, I love her in every season. She's got a lot of bad qualities in later seasons that I think are often explained by the circumstances she's encountered, as can be said for many of the characters and--incidentally--most human beings. So while I do enjoy watching early season Willow more, I'm very glad that the writers found a way for her to break out of her shell and find happiness as an assertive woman, even if at times she went too far. Could you have written a better 21-year old Willow? Maybe. Doesn't mean I have to hate this one.

As for Dark Willow: I hate the arc as well, and I don't think it makes much sense other than to show what an addiction to magic combined with unimaginable grief could do to someone in the 'verse. But I think of it as a mistake; a botched plot device, not a reflection on who Willow was on her way toward becoming in seasons 4,5, and most of 6. But that's just my opinion.

 

[Icarium]

Seriously, I think your anger is misdirected toward me, where this is concerned. I'm pointing out that I think people did mostly want her to have not changed. That's what I took away from the posts I read. What you're upset about is the possibility that people do feel that way, and listen, I'm not one of those people. So why get upset with me for pointing out that there are those who may think that?

Because I suspected you were using those "people" as a convenient strawman. I for one don't see anyone in this thread demanding "No change or...no change". But we already discussed that, I believe, so my clarification was more in answer to Chosen Enemy's remark: "Another question on the subject. I see that almost everybody wishes Willow had stayed the old Willow. " than a response to you.

So while I do enjoy watching early season Willow more, I'm very glad that the writers found a way for her to break out of her shell and find happiness as an assertive woman, even if at times she went too far.

Unless you mean assertive in the sense of abuser I fail to see how this didn't happen pretty much entirely in S1-4. Strong with magic doesn't a strong character make.