Do you miss the old Willow?

I think her character could have developed while still retaining some of the characteristics that so many people have said they missed. I don't think anyone here is suggesting that her character should have never matured or developed; they are simply saying that they miss her old charm, quirkiness and kindhearted attitude.

I agree. For me, she loses every ounce of humility she ever had and that makes her completely unsympathetic as a character in the later seasons.

Willow may have grown older, but I actually think she became less mature and regressed emotionally.
 
For the record, I like S1-4 Willow way more than S5-7 Willow but S5 Willow is still totes my favorite character and I'm even inclined to try to defend S6-7 Willow because of how much she gets bashed by fans, the creators and the other characters. However, I'll stick to mid-series Willow for the moment because I sense unfair treatment.

Willow S1-3? Genuine contender for my favourite character. Willow S4-7? Held in the same esteem I hold Spike.

I actually think S4 Willow is very much in the same mold as the S1-3 character. She grows and changes a heck of a lot through those seasons and the superficialities may be quite different in S4 (interest in a woman, short hair, no overalls or tights) but it's still a logical and attractive outgrowth of High School Willow. She's still trying to balance science/computers with magic. She's not all powerful and her spells take thought and concentration. She may have given up Ivy League dreams but she's pretty determined to have a successful college career, socially and academically. She's still one of, if not the most important, emotional supports for Buffy and the person that Buffy confides her fears, her romantic aspirations, etc.

And while I may see negative changes in S5, they're pretty much all negative structural changes. Like her role as Buffy's emotional support is supplanted by Dawnie-Come-Lately or her ability to go toe-to-toe with a goddess undermines the dramatic need to have the Scoobies be outgunned and overcome their challenges with a lot of efforts and some surprise. Also, she really should have been positioned as "bi". But Willow, herself? Still incredibly likable and I'd argue the most likable character in S5 and someone I'd love to have as a friend. Because she:

a) tries her best to be supportive of Buffy in all of Buffy's angst and iss-yews while asking very little from Buffy
b) offers Giles constant friendship from she archives his books/begs him to stay in Sunnydale/validates his presence at the beginning to stopping his bleeding and delegating Xander to get him to a hospital at the end of the season (BTW, Willow's horrified beyond horrified expression as she's desperately trying to stem Giles's bleeding in Spiral means more to me than Buffy's beatific expression as Giles tells her how always right Buffy is in the same ep)
c) Completely overhauls Tara's quality of life. Two years ago, Tara was being beaten down and abused. Now, Willow dotes on Tara constantly with compliments, provision of friends, big birthday and round-the-clock-care and a restoration of Tara's sanity when she was brainsucked which is more than Glory's other brainsucked victims got.
d) Offers Xander more friendship in this season than he does for her, in moments both big (put 'em up in The Body) and small ("I think you're cool!" in Fool for Love).
e) Defends Dawn on a number of occasions to Jealous!Short Tempered!Buffy and engages Dawn's attention with math tutoring, chess and magic.
f) Displays heroism in pretty much all of the fights that she gets involved in, including but not limited to saving Giles/Xander lives in Listening to Fear, fighting Glory through to the end and after a spectacular kicking of her ass, coming back to give Tara her sanity back, fighting the invisible demons in Family and keeping her composure to put up a wall in Weight of the World through the flaming arrows and to re-trap Olaf. (The only exception is that I think Willow should have argued with Anya when Anya offered her life for Xander's in Triangle and insisted that she should die for Xander instead. It would have been a) in character and b) very funny to see Anya and Willow, then, start arguing about who should die for Xander.)
g) Calls on all skills that she's personally developed (without a Watcher or a sacred duty or formal education or the camera on her...) including the old mainstays of computer hacking and magic but also risks her health to practice teleportation when it was effective against Glory and fixes the Buffybot.

So S1-3 Willow may be the closest to my heart but S4-5 Willow is still totally awesome and I'll defend her to death. S6-7 Willow is a little more dicey. Maybe I'll come back and discuss that later....
 
Kean
Kean
When I think of S4 Willow I think of the spell she did to hurt Verucca or her selfishly driven "I Will it So" spell. They set off alarm bells in my head as to what was to come later...
VisionGirl
VisionGirl
While I see Kean's concerns, I love this entire post! Really good job specifying all that.
For the record, I like S1-4 Willow way more than S5-7 Willow but S5 Willow is still totes my favorite character and I'm even inclined to try to defend S6-7 Willow because of how much she gets bashed by fans, the creators and the other characters.

And while I may see negative changes in S5, they're pretty much all negative structural changes. Like her role as Buffy's emotional support is supplanted by Dawnie-Come-Lately or her ability to go toe-to-toe with a goddess undermines the dramatic need to have the Scoobies be outgunned and overcome their challenges with a lot of efforts and some surprise.

So S1-3 Willow may be the closest to my heart but S4-5 Willow is still totally awesome and I'll defend her to death. S6-7 Willow is a little more dicey.

^^This last point, exactly.

I agree with all these points! Really well said, (including the list of why she's so awesome in season 5). Only difference for me I guess is that I'm already at the stage of trying to defend a later season Willow as well.

It's funny; late season Willow is a character for me that I don't always think of all the time, but when I see truly negative opinions of her I realize how much I don't blame her for her faults and, while she isn't my favorite of characters at that point, (or of Willows), I can't understand the perspective that she's been ruined.
 
I do miss the nerdy Willow from seasons 1-3, but I appreciate the character development. I feel her humor wasn't as strong in seasons 4-7 because the whole "cute, shy and geeky" doesn't work when your older.

Overall, I do miss Willow from seasons 1-3. I felt seasons 4-7 Willow never had that intangible that makes characters special
 
I actually think S4 Willow is very much in the same mold as the S1-3 character. She grows and changes a heck of a lot through those seasons and the superficialities may be quite different in S4 (interest in a woman, short hair, no overalls or tights) but it's still a logical and attractive outgrowth of High School Willow. She's still trying to balance science/computers with magic. She's not all powerful and her spells take thought and concentration. She may have given up Ivy League dreams but she's pretty determined to have a successful college career, socially and academically. She's still one of, if not the most important, emotional supports for Buffy and the person that Buffy confides her fears, her romantic aspirations, etc.

And while I may see negative changes in S5, they're pretty much all negative structural changes. Like her role as Buffy's emotional support is supplanted by Dawnie-Come-Lately or her ability to go toe-to-toe with a goddess undermines the dramatic need to have the Scoobies be outgunned and overcome their challenges with a lot of efforts and some surprise. Also, she really should have been positioned as "bi". But Willow, herself? Still incredibly likable and I'd argue the most likable character in S5 and someone I'd love to have as a friend. Because she:

a) tries her best to be supportive of Buffy in all of Buffy's angst and iss-yews while asking very little from Buffy
b) offers Giles constant friendship from she archives his books/begs him to stay in Sunnydale/validates his presence at the beginning to stopping his bleeding and delegating Xander to get him to a hospital at the end of the season (BTW, Willow's horrified beyond horrified expression as she's desperately trying to stem Giles's bleeding in Spiral means more to me than Buffy's beatific expression as Giles tells her how always right Buffy is in the same ep)
c) Completely overhauls Tara's quality of life. Two years ago, Tara was being beaten down and abused. Now, Willow dotes on Tara constantly with compliments, provision of friends, big birthday and round-the-clock-care and a restoration of Tara's sanity when she was brainsucked which is more than Glory's other brainsucked victims got.
d) Offers Xander more friendship in this season than he does for her, in moments both big (put 'em up in The Body) and small ("I think you're cool!" in Fool for Love).
e) Defends Dawn on a number of occasions to Jealous!Short Tempered!Buffy and engages Dawn's attention with math tutoring, chess and magic.
f) Displays heroism in pretty much all of the fights that she gets involved in, including but not limited to saving Giles/Xander lives in Listening to Fear, fighting Glory through to the end and after a spectacular kicking of her ass, coming back to give Tara her sanity back, fighting the invisible demons in Family and keeping her composure to put up a wall in Weight of the World through the flaming arrows and to re-trap Olaf. (The only exception is that I think Willow should have argued with Anya when Anya offered her life for Xander's in Triangle and insisted that she should die for Xander instead. It would have been a) in character and b) very funny to see Anya and Willow, then, start arguing about who should die for Xander.)
g) Calls on all skills that she's personally developed (without a Watcher or a sacred duty or formal education or the camera on her...) including the old mainstays of computer hacking and magic but also risks her health to practice teleportation when it was effective against Glory and fixes the Buffybot.

So S1-3 Willow may be the closest to my heart but S4-5 Willow is still totally awesome and I'll defend her to death. S6-7 Willow is a little more dicey. Maybe I'll come back and discuss that later....

Okay, this might stain my reputation as a grumpy S5-7 hater, but I very much agree with almost all of this. Willow is the main reason I even bother to rewatch some S5 episode from time to time. Apart from what is described above as structural changes the main reason I don't like S5 Willow as much as S1-4 Willow is that some her actions can be seen as set up for the dreadfully bad S6 arc. And of course those structural provided are quite a blow since Willow's friendship with Buffy and Xander provided the vast majority of emotional punch in her storyline.

Kean agrees: When I think of S4 Willow I think of the spell she did to hurt Verucca or her selfishly driven "I Will it So" spell. They set off alarm bells in my head as to what was to come later

You mean the spell to hurt Veruca that she didn't actually cast? And my only problem with the "My will be done" spell is that it was way too powerful, yet never used again. I don't see what's wrong with casting a spell to make yourself feel better, it's basically the supernatural equivalent of anti-depressants (or getting drunk for some people 🙂). If anything, plot necessity for the spell to not be used again because it was too powerful aside, it can be argued that Willow showed amazing restraint by never casting it again say to make herself rich or other pettier reasons.
 
You mean the spell to hurt Veruca that she didn't actually cast? And my only problem with the "My will be done" spell is that it was way too powerful, yet never used again. I don't see what's wrong with casting a spell to make yourself feel better, it's basically the supernatural equivalent of anti-depressants (or getting drunk for some people 🙂). If anything, plot necessity for the spell to not be used again because it was too powerful aside, it can be argued that Willow showed amazing restraint by never casting it again say to make herself rich or other pettier reasons.

Now this I totally agree with! And actually I think I might like season 4 Willow best of all...
 
I love both sides of Willow and to be honest, I don't believe she changed. She was the same Willow from the start to finish but she just grew up and gained life experience. None of us really change, we're still who we are but under different circumstances. Willow, although she was still a nerdy wallflower-ish type changed very quickly in season one. She changed because she knew things and because she got a solid group of friends surrounding her. However, she just continued to learn and grow throughout the show but she was still Willow.

Addiction changes people and it was necessary to explore what getting so far into the magicks could do to you. Willow was an addict and she will always struggle with that but that's just something she went through. She was still Willow and so I don't want the old Willow because the old Willow is still the new Willow.
 
Originally Posted by Icarium
You mean the spell to hurt Veruca that she didn't actually cast? And my only problem with the "My will be done" spell is that it was way too powerful, yet never used again. I don't see what's wrong with casting a spell to make yourself feel better, it's basically the supernatural equivalent of anti-depressants (or getting drunk for some people ). If anything, plot necessity for the spell to not be used again because it was too powerful aside, it can be argued that Willow showed amazing restraint by never casting it again say to make herself rich or other pettier reasons.

Quoted for truth. Plus, I've been reading a little in this thread (and other places) about how Willow loses all of her humility in S4, making her unsympathetic? She reacts to the Will Be Done spell with an incredible amount of humility and responsibility, way more than other Scoobies have for other screwups. She:

a) really apologizes to the group, even over doing it for an unintentional mistake ("Look, cookies. See, a very not evil thing I did.")
b) Does a first and only for the group and makes concrete restitution for her mistakes. Baking cookies and detailing Giles's car may seem small but they definitely fall under "types of concrete restitution that a college freshman can actually make after hurting her friends".
c) Feels so bad that she goes on to disparage herself as a witch in her first conversation with Tara in the next ep. ("Anyway, spells going awry? Friends in danger? I'm definitely nothing special.")
d) Spends the rest of S4 only performing spells that are to the very productive benefit of the Scoobies or training Tara (although with the spell-sex metaphor, that's gotta be the most fun "training regimen" ever!)

Originally Posted by Gun_Gnome33
It's funny; late season Willow is a character for me that I don't always think of all the time, but when I see truly negative opinions of her I realize how much I don't blame her for her faults and, while she isn't my favorite of characters at that point, (or of Willows), I can't understand the perspective that she's been ruined.

Hmm, no question that UPN Willow is an enormous comedown from WB Willow. However, I do think that fans exaggerate her flaws or talk about her problems with hyperbole and this makes me very defensive of a character that I feel disappointed by too.

Like the argument on this thread that Willow *never* does anything smart in S7. Not true. She figures that the First was trying to manipulate her into suicide which is smart and strong because Willow really did have potential for suicide by CWDP. While Buffy and Xander are stuck on the "Kill or don't kill Anyanka 2.0?" question, Willow tries to spare Buffy and Xander the inevitable pain of both choices and goes right to D'Hoffryn.

The cheap tawdriness of the magic!crack and the nuclear impact of Dark!Willow in the last three eps of S6 and all lesbian issues, from Kennedy to the political controversy around Tara's death, swallow Willow's whole S6-7 storyline and people forget that there was interesting, admirable stuff about Willow in those seasons. Not as much as past seasons and I don't like UPN Willow anywhere near as WB Willow but IMO it's fans who help the writers along when it comes to giving a reductionist end and a single-dimensional image in the final two seasons.

Also Gum Gnome33, thank you, thank you, THANK YOU for advancing the argument awhile back that expecting a girl to train herself in magic from her junior year of high school on and escalate with bigger and bigger spells from switching Buffy's and Faith's essences to creating a mystical wall that can repel an army to ending Buffy's catatonia to finally bringing Buffy back from the dead is a logical path to dependence and dysfunction with magic. If we accept the show's argument that magic is addictive and corrosive and ruinous to otherwise good people (and I do!) than Willow's road to hell was paved with very good intentions and with the support ranging to commands of her friends. The story was poorly told but somewhere all of the problems and mixed up metaphors was something that could have been good.
 
If we accept the show's argument that magic is addictive and corrosive and ruinous to otherwise good people (and I do!) than Willow's road to hell was paved with very good intentions and with the support ranging to commands of her friends.

Yes, but if we accept that premise then Anya and Giles are basically drug dealers (the "magic supplies=drugs" metaphor is so clumsy in and unsubtle in Older and Far Away that it makes me wonder what drugs the writers took before writing that episode). It's sort of a lose-lose situation. Giles is also astonishingly irresponsible in not bothering to, you know, mention the addiction problem to Willow ever. Even in S7 he (and the writers too) is busy retconning the whole thing away.

Like the argument on this thread that Willow *never* does anything smart in S7. Not true. She figures that the First was trying to manipulate her into suicide which is smart

Is it really? If a girl Willow never even met claims to be a messenger for Tara and explicitly tells Willow to kill herself, it doesn't really take a genius to figure out there is something fishy. Yes, by S7's standards it was quite the achievement and this was one of the very few scenes that actually moved me that season (despite Amber Benson's absence necessitating a rather obvious rewrite) but then again by S7's standards even tying one's shoes right could easily be considered a heroic fear.

The cheap tawdriness of the magic!crack and the nuclear impact of Dark!Willow in the last three eps of S6 and all lesbian issues, from Kennedy to the political controversy around Tara's death, swallow Willow's whole S6-7 storyline and people forget that there was interesting, admirable stuff about Willow in those seasons. Not as much as past seasons and I don't like UPN Willow anywhere near as WB Willow but IMO it's fans who help the writers along when it comes to giving a reductionist end and a single-dimensional image in the final two seasons.

Why would that be helping the writers? I suspect the writers thought the story was "dark, mature and exciting", and I very much doubt they intended Willow to be regarded as a one-dimensional caricature.

While Buffy and Xander are stuck on the "Kill or don't kill Anyanka 2.0?" question, Willow tries to spare Buffy and Xander the inevitable pain of both choices and goes right to D'Hoffryn.

Yeah, but that's more of a case of Buffy and Xander being dumb than Willow being all that smart, IMO.
 
Also Gum Gnome33, thank you, thank you, THANK YOU for advancing the argument awhile back that expecting a girl to train herself in magic from her junior year of high school on and escalate with bigger and bigger spells from switching Buffy's and Faith's essences to creating a mystical wall that can repel an army to ending Buffy's catatonia to finally bringing Buffy back from the dead is a logical path to dependence and dysfunction with magic. If we accept the show's argument that magic is addictive and corrosive and ruinous to otherwise good people (and I do!) than Willow's road to hell was paved with very good intentions and with the support ranging to commands of her friends. The story was poorly told but somewhere all of the problems and mixed up metaphors was something that could have been good.

Yeah, this is exactly it. There was a thread here a while back about the culpability of the scoobies in Willow's descent/"destruction" (whatever you want to call it), and I argued that they did play a large role, but also that I didn't necessarily fault them for it. I mean they didn't exactly have any alternatives, all those times when they counted on Willow to save them with magic. But the consequence, of course, was a terrible addiction and a considerable change in character--at least temporarily--for the worst. I really wanted the scoobies to act less shocked and disappointed in season 6 when Willow was drowning in her addiction. Tara included. Or, maybe especially Tara.

In fact, the more I think about it, the more upset I become. I think we all can agree that Willow is fantastic in 1-3, and I just adore her in 4 and 5, (I just don't understand where/when she is overly selfish and/or irritating in those seasons at all). In 6, she is truly struggling with something profound and I just don't think she should be judged so harshly. It is, after all, the consequence of saving the lives of many, and quite often. And in season 7? Say what you want about her, but she's just lost Tara, and she's just come back from trying to end the world--the ultimate consequence of extreme grief and addiction, simultaneously existing. In 7, she is able to control herself, and I think just surviving and keeping her impulses in check make a full time job. Then, she's able to trust herself to do an incredibly powerful spell in the very end, after all she's been through.
I think season 8 Willow reminds me a lot of season 6 Willow, without the blatant addiction problem. She's a bit arrogant and selfish and there's less of a reason for it than there is in previous seasons. Hopefully she'll be more humble in season 9, given the circumstances...
 
Z
zobothehobo
I love you. And I love this post.
While Buffy and Xander are stuck on the "Kill or don't kill Anyanka 2.0?" question, Willow tries to spare Buffy and Xander the inevitable pain of both choices and goes right to D'Hoffryn.
Yeah, but that's more of a case of Buffy and Xander being dumb than Willow being all that smart, IMO.

I didn't think Buffy and Xander were being dumb there. How often did the Scoobies deal with a menace by trying to get the menace's boss to end the evil contract? Willow just figured that because she has a talisman with an open invitation to call D'Hoffryn (which Buffy and Xander may or may not know about) and because Willow felt that she had a rapport of sorts, that is was worth a shot. That took Willow remembering that she had the talisman from Something Blue, thinking out of the box by using the "vengeance demons are under contract" and skills of manipulation by trying to play on D'Hoffryn's interest in her.

Is it really? If a girl Willow never even met claims to be a messenger for Tara and explicitly tells Willow to kill herself, it doesn't really take a genius to figure out there is something fishy. Yes, by S7's standards it was quite the achievement and this was one of the very few scenes that actually moved me that season (despite Amber Benson's absence necessitating a rather obvious rewrite) but then again by S7's standards even tying one's shoes right could easily be considered a heroic fear.

I think you're underestimating how desperate Willow was for Tara to come back or have any chance to talk to her or say goodbye. AH does such a good job showing her angsty joy at getting an emissary from Tara that IMO, it struck me as taking a lot to see past what Willow wanted to see- a message from Tara, a chance to see Tara again, an out from life, etc.

The cheap tawdriness of the magic!crack and the nuclear impact of Dark!Willow in the last three eps of S6 and all lesbian issues, from Kennedy to the political controversy around Tara's death, swallow Willow's whole S6-7 storyline and people forget that there was interesting, admirable stuff about Willow in those seasons. Not as much as past seasons and I don't like UPN Willow anywhere near as WB Willow but IMO it's fans who help the writers along when it comes to giving a reductionist end and a single-dimensional image in the final two seasons.
Why would that be helping the writers? I suspect the writers thought the story was "dark, mature and exciting", and I very much doubt they intended Willow to be regarded as a one-dimensional caricature.

I do think that in S6-7, the writers intentionally made Willow's story a story of big extremes. It was embodied in hair color for cryin' out loud- having her go from the depths of black magic mama evil to being "redeemed" with hair as pure as the driven snow.

In between those periods, Willow made bad choices (mind-wiping), repentant choices (surrendering to whatever punishment Giles decided), had sympathetic moments (sitting with one-eyed Xander in the hospital), had pitiful moments (begging Buffy and crawling on the floor in Wrecked) and strong moments (terminating her relationship with Amy in Double Meat Palace), etc. There's a whole spectrum of the rainbow of colors and contradictions that is S6-7 Willow beyond white hair, black hair and gay rainbow pride. However the writers encouraged it by making her story a story of extremes (i.e. having her try to end the world and kill her friends in a costume instead of kill Warren with red hair and make her redemption about that) and viewers just ran with it by ignoring everything about Willow's S6-7 story other than evil, redemption and gay pride when there's actually other stuff there. Contrast that to how the writers and viewers read Willow's S1 story. Because her story in S1 didn't have extreme moments and it was clearly Willow just trying to make her way in the real world, there's much more of a rounded analysis from viewers of Willow's intelligent moments, naive moments, selfless moments, childish moments, etc.

Yeah, this is exactly it. There was a thread here a while back about the culpability of the scoobies in Willow's descent/"destruction" (whatever you want to call it), and I argued that they did play a large role, but also that I didn't necessarily fault them for it. I mean they didn't exactly have any alternatives, all those times when they counted on Willow to save them with magic. But the consequence, of course, was a terrible addiction and a considerable change in character--at least temporarily--for the worst. I really wanted the scoobies to act less shocked and disappointed in season 6 when Willow was drowning in her addiction. Tara included. Or, maybe especially Tara.

Yes, it all should have been much better written. However, the physical evidence indicates that Willow is vulnerable to addiction and the predatory nature of Rack and the like in a way that Tara or ordinary Magic Box customers aren't because her magic is different- a sea of her choices to suck dark magic to fight Glory, years of doing huge spells in service of the group and a major power up starting during the end of S5, largely in service to the group. Not sure where Amy falls into this and the writers didn't explain it but IMO, she had some vulnerability due to her magical legacy from her evil mom and also, Amy seemed more enthusiastic about making bad magical choices over a longer period of time than Willow.
 
I didn't think Buffy and Xander were being dumb there. How often did the Scoobies deal with a menace by trying to get the menace's boss to end the evil contract?

That's not why they were being dumb. They were dumb because:
- they should have dealt with Anyanka 2.0 months ago, instead of waiting for her to kill someone. Heck, for all they knew she could have killed many people before the frat boys.
- they knew very well that turning vengeance demons back into people was possible so killing Anya wasn't the only solution. Not that I don't think that Anya deserved to die, mind you, but Buffy claiming she wanted to kill Anya because she was a demon, as opposed to Willow who was human was absolutely retarded. If anything, Willow was bigger public safety risk as it was possible to take away Anya's superpowers. Now, if Buffy had made the distinction on the basis of which of the two would be more likely to use said powers to do evil, that's one thing but doing it on the basis of who is a demon after seeing that Anyanka 2.0 had conscience and everything is well, specieist.

I think you're underestimating how desperate Willow was for Tara to come back or have any chance to talk to her or say goodbye. AH does such a good job showing her angsty joy at getting an emissary from Tara that IMO, it struck me as taking a lot to see past what Willow wanted to see- a message from Tara, a chance to see Tara again, an out from life, etc.

I think you underestimate just how inept The First was. There was no need whatsoever to overplay its hand and directly say that Willow needed to kill herself. Add to that the decision to assume the form of someone Willow had never even met when it could have picked plenty of people whom she knew and who could have been far more convincing and it doesn't seem that much of an achievement that Willow saw through the ruse.

I do think that in S6-7, the writers intentionally made Willow's story a story of big extremes. It was embodied in hair color for cryin' out loud- having her go from the depths of black magic mama evil to being "redeemed" with hair as pure as the driven snow.

In between those periods, Willow made bad choices (mind-wiping), repentant choices (surrendering to whatever punishment Giles decided), had sympathetic moments (sitting with one-eyed Xander in the hospital), had pitiful moments (begging Buffy and crawling on the floor in Wrecked) and strong moments (terminating her relationship with Amy in Double Meat Palace), etc. There's a whole spectrum of the rainbow of colors and contradictions that is S6-7 Willow beyond white hair, black hair and gay rainbow pride. However the writers encouraged it by making her story a story of extremes (i.e. having her try to end the world and kill her friends in a costume instead of kill Warren with red hair and make her redemption about that) and viewers just ran with it by ignoring everything about Willow's S6-7 story other than evil, redemption and gay pride when there's actually other stuff there. Contrast that to how the writers and viewers read Willow's S1 story. Because her story in S1 didn't have extreme moments and it was clearly Willow just trying to make her way in the real world, there's much more of a rounded analysis from viewers of Willow's intelligent moments, naive moments, selfless moments, childish moments, etc.

Sure, one can find some subtlety in Willow's S6-7 story if they try hard enough but I can't really blame most fans for going with the flow and seeing it in the simplistic terms in which it was mostly written and presented. But I don't think the writers made the story simplistic on purpose, they were simply inept and failed to put much depth in it.

But the consequence, of course, was a terrible addiction and a considerable change in character--at least temporarily--for the worst. I really wanted the scoobies to act less shocked and disappointed in season 6 when Willow was drowning in her addiction. Tara included. Or, maybe especially Tara.

Yeah, this is exactly it. There was a thread here a while back about the culpability of the scoobies in Willow's descent/"destruction" (whatever you want to call it), and I argued that they did play a large role, but also that I didn't necessarily fault them for it. I mean they didn't exactly have any alternatives, all those times when they counted on Willow to save them with magic. But the consequence, of course, was a terrible addiction and a considerable change in character--at least temporarily--for the worst. I really wanted the scoobies to act less shocked and disappointed in season 6 when Willow was drowning in her addiction. Tara included. Or, maybe especially Tara.

In fact, the more I think about it, the more upset I become. I think we all can agree that Willow is fantastic in 1-3, and I just adore her in 4 and 5, (I just don't understand where/when she is overly selfish and/or irritating in those seasons at all). In 6, she is truly struggling with something profound and I just don't think she should be judged so harshly. It is, after all, the consequence of saving the lives of many, and quite often. And in season 7? Say what you want about her, but she's just lost Tara, and she's just come back from trying to end the world--the ultimate consequence of extreme grief and addiction, simultaneously existing. In 7, she is able to control herself, and I think just surviving and keeping her impulses in check make a full time job. Then, she's able to trust herself to do an incredibly powerful spell in the very end, after all she's been through.

I think the Scoobies didn't adapt well to the situation because the addiction wasn't planned. In Bargaining-Smashed there are tons of anvils about Willow being selfish, up to no good, soon to be moustache-twirling evil and nothing whatsoever about addiction. Then bang, the most unsubtle addiction storyline I have ever seen commenced. Willow amazingly managed to become addicted and reach rock bottom all in the space of a day or two. The reactions of the characters were similarly unconvincing. Giles doesn't come back to help, everyone else seems to assume that Willow needs to find her way through trial and error as if she is the only one who ever got addicted to magic. The whole thing is just embarrassingly badly written and it's no wonder that many fans don't really want to use it as an excuse for Willow's actions - it is quite simply unconvincing. Not to mention it's rather hard to use it to justify Willow's worst actions trying to destroy the world and mindwiping Tara.
 
I think the Scoobies didn't adapt well to the situation because the addiction wasn't planned. In Bargaining-Smashed there are tons of anvils about Willow being selfish, up to no good, soon to be moustache-twirling evil and nothing whatsoever about addiction. Then bang, the most unsubtle addiction storyline I have ever seen commenced. Willow amazingly managed to become addicted and reach rock bottom all in the space of a day or two. The reactions of the characters were similarly unconvincing...The whole thing is just embarrassingly badly written and it's no wonder that many fans don't really want to use it as an excuse for Willow's actions - it is quite simply unconvincing. Not to mention it's rather hard to use it to justify Willow's worst actions trying to destroy the world and mindwiping Tara.

Hmm it's interesting-- I guess I really don't see the addiction as extremely sudden or out of the blue. For me, as soon as she's talking about bringing Buffy back I got the sense that she was a little arrogant about her abilities, (but then replaced that notion with a probable desperation of trying to get her best friend back and the understandable carelessness that that might inspire). But once that conversation between Willow and Giles took place in the kitchen, it instantly registered with me that she was addicted. And I was sort of taken aback by it, but instantly it made sense to me that she would be. So, sudden and not-so-sudden at the same time, if that makes any sense? Anyway, for some reason it always felt organic to me; I sort of "filled in the blanks" in my head, looking back on seasons 4 and 5 and thinking about how Willow must have been struggling behind the scenes, always itching to do more but able to control herself until she had the ultimate success with Buffy in Bargaining.

I agree very much about the reactions of the other characters being completely puzzling. It's sort of the first time on the show that we see scoobies turning their backs on other scoobies, (something I'm getting really freaking tired of btw, since it looks like it will be a continued theme in season 9). I was just always so shocked with how, well, shocked and almost indignant the rest of the scoobies were when they "discovered" Willow's addiction.

When Tara tells Willow, "What did I tell you? No more teleportation spells," I just want to scream and it's one of the only times I'm actively frustrated with Tara. Really? No teleportation. Okay, so I guess the series ends with Blood Ties, when Glory swiftly kills the gang and takes her key. People seriously underestimate (on the show), how much Willow does, and how often. And "that's the thing about magic. There are always consequences. Always!"

I understand what you're saying about the whole "magic as an excuse" thing being difficult for fans to buy, when it's handled poorly in the writing. But I guess what I'm trying to say, after all that, is that I see the clunkiness as intentional. I acknowledge that it's there, but I think it isn't bad writing, but a real glimpse at how oblivious people can be. And I think if you buy the notion that Willow was silently suffering while her closest friends were (understandably) counting her to do the very thing that was fueling her addiction, it can feel like an organic development, and it's easier to forgive Willow's other personality flaws in light of all of that.

zobothehobo agrees: I love you. And I love this post.

Aww, thanks Buffy-brain twin. Means a lot. 😀
 
Hmm it's interesting-- I guess I really don't see the addiction as extremely sudden or out of the blue. For me, as soon as she's talking about bringing Buffy back I got the sense that she was a little arrogant about her abilities, (but then replaced that notion with a probable desperation of trying to get her best friend back and the understandable carelessness that that might inspire). But once that conversation between Willow and Giles took place in the kitchen, it instantly registered with me that she was addicted. And I was sort of taken aback by it, but instantly it made sense to me that she would be. So, sudden and not-so-sudden at the same time, if that makes any sense? Anyway, for some reason it always felt organic to me; I sort of "filled in the blanks" in my head, looking back on seasons 4 and 5 and thinking about how Willow must have been struggling behind the scenes, always itching to do more but able to control herself until she had the ultimate success with Buffy in Bargaining.

As I said, unless Willow was addicted to being stupid and to feeing important because of her spells, I don't see how exactly her actions hint at her being the type of addict that she was retconned into later. Physical addiction to magic itself is something completely different and I think the writers thought so too since otherwise they would have had no need whatsoever for Rack's crack den and could have just had Tara or Giles or Anya confront Willow and tell her she is addicted. The show tried to have it both ways and that's a big reason why it failed to satisfy many fans.

When Tara tells Willow, "What did I tell you? No more teleportation spells," I just want to scream and it's one of the only times I'm actively frustrated with Tara. Really? No teleportation. Okay, so I guess the series ends with Blood Ties, when Glory swiftly kills the gang and takes her key. People seriously underestimate (on the show), how much Willow does, and how often.

I think this stems from the rules governing magic changing according to the needs of the plot. It's entirely possible that after teleporting somebody a caster can't do this again for some time without a very great danger for their life. The writers groping in the dark as far as magic went, made Willow, Giles and Tara often look either stupid or hypocritical.



I understand what you're saying about the whole "magic as an excuse" thing being difficult for fans to buy, when it's handled poorly in the writing. But I guess what I'm trying to say, after all that, is that I see the clunkiness as intentional. I acknowledge that it's there, but I think it isn't bad writing, but a real glimpse at how oblivious people can be. And I think if you buy the notion that Willow was silently suffering while her closest friends were (understandably) counting her to do the very thing that was fueling her addiction, it can feel like an organic development, and it's easier to forgive Willow's other personality flaws in light of all of that.

It's rather hard to buy it when Willow seems the most surprised of them all by the whole addiction thing. If anything her being too trigger happy with spells is what got her into that mess to begin with, so I can't really accept that interpretation. She seemed to have tons of fun with Amy in Smashed - would she use magic so casually if it caused her any suffering? Also, Willow isn't exactly a good liar. So while I believe that her hiding the negative effects in order to not worry her friends could have made for a far more interesting storyline than the contradictory mess we got, I don't see that in the a ctual text of the show.

Apart from the shockingly inconsistent worldbuilding, "magic=drugs" also had the unfortunate implication that Willow was somehow being punished for being too good with her magic. This just doesn't sit well with me, at all. It was a huge mistake to make Willow so powerful as anyone with half a brain could see that they would have to reverse that, so that Buffy wouldn't become irrelevant on her own show and that they wouldn't need to re-brand it as "Charmed: Sunnydale".
 
I rewatched some S6 (yes, I am a glutton for punishment) and I think this dialogue describes pretty well what I think the writers were going for in Bargaining - Smashed:

XANDER: Tara thinks Willow is doing too much magic. And she's not the only one.
BUFFY: I know. But I-I think she'll be fine. You know, it's, it's Willow. She of the level head.
ANYA: Well, those are the ones you have to watch out for the most. Responsible types.
BUFFY: Right, she might go crazy and start alphabetizing everything.
ANYA: I'm serious. Responsible people are ... always so concerned with ... being good all the time, that when they finally get a taste of being bad ... they can't get enough. It's like all (gestures) kablooey.
BUFFY: That's not true.
ANYA: Okay, not kablooey, more like bam.
XANDER: It's human nature, Buff. Will's getting a taste of something powerful, way bigger than her.
ANYA: Yeah, she was getting out of control with it before Tara left, and now that she's gone...
XANDER: It's gotta be seductive.

Buffy looks up in alarm at the word 'seductive.' Her eyes widen.
XANDER: (OS) Just giving in to it. Going totally wild.

----------------

Basically it's Willow fault for "getting a taste of being bad" and liking it. In those episodes she seems thrilled not by the magic but by the power it gave her. Seduced by the dark side, if you will. Suddenly after Wrecked, she wasn't to cast even the most innocent of spells because she was afraid she might lose control. Quite a difference.

P.S. Sorry for the double post but it was impossible to edit my previous one.
 
Yey she lost something, I loved the "hacker" Willow. Now she's gone. But it's interesting to see the development of some characters. But I still love the new Willow. She is and was a great character.
 
Yes, I loved the old Willow. I loved her that much that I could easily watch those earlier seasons JUST for her. I'm probably in the minority, but I have a STRONG dislike of Magic!Willow, and the more magic she used, the more she liked it and craved it, the more I hated her character.


...er scratch that. A LOT of you hate Magic!Willow too...
 
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