Do you peeps think Buffy was mean to Spike at the Season?

[Enisy]

But as far as I've gotten in S7, she's treating him pretty shabbily, and he's not done one thing to her.

Honestly, I think the snarkiness is mostly a knee-jerk reaction, as a result of her confusion and disorientation. Just when she thought her relationship with him was "absolutely, seriously, definitely over", what with the attempted rape, he goes and gets a soul for her, and all of a sudden "he's changed, a lot, a LOT a lot", and she has no idea what to do with the new status quo. She does sometimes fall into old patterns when dealing with him, but I think they reach a good place by the end of the season.

 

[MichelleBFT]

I think Spike had made it clear, that he hadn't returned to SD to get things roaring with Buffy again. That might have been his purpose when he left, to get a soul and get the girl. But once he had the soul he felt things that made him understand all that had gone before and he lost that expectation.

I mean, he came back and did NOT contact Buffy. He hid in the basement. She found HIM, he didn't go looking for her.

Then, the first thing he assures her when he goes to her house is that he has not come to apologize, and that if she doesn't want his help, he's gone and she wont see him again.

Then he goes out of his way to keep her from knowing he has a soul.

This is not the behavior of someone who expects to be welcomed back into the fold like nothing ever happened.

He feels horrible for what he did, and he also feels horrible for what she did to him, the way she used him, and the fact that she hated herself, in a way that he couldn't pre-soul. He never once tried to defend his behavior. Not a single time.

Buffy horribly, emotionally abused Spike during 6. He repeatedly asked her to stay away if she didn't return his feelings, and she kept showing up. So yeah, he believed that somewhere under all that raunchy sex, she did care for him. Because he couldn't believe that Buffy was bad enough to just totally use him when she knew how he felt. He was sure that she must have feelings she didn't want to admit to. And she beat him up pretty badly, there was physical abuse as well. After Riley caught them in bed together she punched Spike in the face for calling her "love".

Now, we are supposed to understand how Buffy is still upset over the potential "rape", OK, I'll give that to her, but how come we aren't supposed to have any sympathy for the one she abused physically, sexually, and emotionally for months?

I'm not making apologies for anyone's bad behavior. Not Spike or Buffy's.

But as far as I've gotten in S7, she's treating him pretty shabbily, and he's not done one thing to her.

He's invited her to kill him, and meant it, and she refused. So it's hard to understand her continuing snarkiness with him.

Ok, first of all, all his behavior when he initially shows back up in SD, hiding in he basement, then coming to the house in the blue shirt and saying he wasn't there for forgiveness, hiding the soul from Buffy.... that was ALL as a result of the a) crazy that comes with getting a soul back after decades of being evil, and b) the crazy that comes with the First worming into his head and making him even nuttier than the soul did. I don't think it can be argued that much of what he did the first few eps of S7 were actions he'd have taken on his own. He's being heavily influenced by the First. The First, you'll recall, posing as Buffy, was telling him she loved him, that they'd get through this together, that she needed him. He wasn't so much avoiding Buffy as he was assuming that he was already talking to Buffy.

And I cannot believe you're putting "air quotes" around the word rape. He tried to rape her, period. She told him to go away and he forced himself on her. She may have kept going to him during S6, but he never turned her away. She never forced herself on him. The one time she showed up and he told her to leave, she was invisible. And it certainly didn't take much to change his mind.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

She only completely, undeniably trusted him in Season 7, which is why she could then allow herself to love him. (Since that was presented as their main issue in Season 6: "I could never trust you enough for it to be love.

I disagree. I believe she trusted Spike in S5 regarding Dawn. She allowed him to babysit her, and Dawn was her real love - the most important thing in her life at that point.

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Well, in theory. But having a soul and not having a soul has gradations of goodness and badness in different people and demons within the 'verse. Amy has a soul throughout, and she does some nasty stuff. And Anya had some trouble doing nasty things even after she lost her soul when she returned to being a vengeance demon. So it stands to reason that two beings who are both exceptionally evil and violent *without* souls (like Angel and Spike) aren't necessarily equally evil (I'd argue that Angelus was more evil than Spike was, without a soul), and that they wouldn't be equally good, either (I think Angel was a "better" souled vampire than Spike was, so far as doing good deeds and all).

Anyhow, my point is that they aren't equally similar or dissimilar in either state.

Example, to explain myself better because I never know if I'm conveying what I mean: Look at a soul like a kind of infection. You and I could be identically healthy, but subjected to the same bacteria or virus we could easily react differently to it. I could get a really extreme manifestation of the infection, you might get the sniffles. Angel got a wicked bad case of soul-itis. Spike got a mild flu-soul.

Good analogy. Also, we have to take into consiteration personality. And the concept of grey area. It's really not convincing to compare souless Spike and soulness Angel. They are so very different.

 

[InsaneMystic]

And I cannot believe you're putting "air quotes" around the word rape. He tried to rape her, period. She told him to go away and he forced himself on her. She may have kept going to him during S6, but he never turned her away. She never forced herself on him. The one time she showed up and he told her to leave, she was invisible. And it certainly didn't take much to change his mind.

I'd suggest you read this post of cryptwarmer's in the "Out of My Mind ending" thread. I'm not sure if I can fully agree with her analysis of the airquotes-or-not - as personally, I react very strongly to sexual violence and tend to consider rape worse than murder - but I find her line of argumentation to be damn impressive that it should not be considered real rape.

 

[Enisy]

I don't think the term "attempted rape" is quite accurate, because he didn't think of it as such at the time, but "almost rape"? Most definitely. Which is pretty damn bad in itself, and no-one should make excuses for it in order to whitewash Spike and blackwash Buffy. They were both equally guilty of abuse in their Season 6 relationship.

 

[Charlie Kaur]

Been a while since i watched it, but even after she realized Spike got a soul, it still seemed like she was a bit mean to him. The way she spoke to him it kinda seemed like in a scalding way and harsh. I remember in the episode "Sleeper", when Spike was crouched in that basement and was just talking to himself, Buffy came up to him and said in a harsh way "Get up..". Anyone else think Buffy was maybe being a little too harsh towards Spike? OR do i need to re watch the season again lol.

Absoloutely! She didn't hold Angel accountable for Angelus' actions. Spike returned suffering, wounded, vulnerable, desperate on the brink of insanity and she was cold and almost brutal with him.

I couldn't understand why she became kinder as his insanity subsided - when he needed her help and generosity a little less. And kinder still when she found out he was killing people again!

I love Buffy but this really irritated me in this season. It seemed very out of character - not just for Buffy but for Willow and Giles to not understand that he was no longer a monster...Willow has a heart of gold!

 

[Spuffy78]

It's for the length of time that Spike had has his soul compared to Angel.

In Willow's case although she did seek revenge she only killed Jonathon.

 

[MichelleBFT]

I'd suggest you read this post of cryptwarmer's in the "Out of My Mind ending" thread. I'm not sure if I can fully agree with her analysis of the airquotes-or-not - as personally, I react very strongly to sexual violence and tend to consider rape worse than murder - but I find her line of argumentation to be damn impressive that it should not be considered real rape.

I read it. Frankly, it creeps me out that anyone would try to classify his actions as anything less than attempted rape, regardless of intent. Lots of rapists truly believe their victims want to give it up, for a variety of reasons, and that if their victims would "just relax" then everyone would have a good time. Believing in any kind of twisted way that she felt for him (which I believe he did) doesn't make his actions any less horrifying.

 

[Primal Slayer]

I don't think the term "attempted rape" is quite accurate, because he didn't think of it as such at the time, but "almost rape"? Most definitely. Which is pretty damn bad in itself, and no-one should make excuses for it in order to whitewash Spike and blackwash Buffy. They were both equally guilty of abuse in their Season 6 relationship.

I agree they bothed abused each other in S6 but he ended up going over the line at the end. And that is most likely why Buffy was the way she was with him at the beginning of S7. When she saw him thats what went through her mind and she viewed him more as a monster than anything.

Had Angelus done the same thing in S2 than I think Buffy and the viewers would feel the same way and it would be hard to see her and Angel together again after something like that happened.

 

[Enisy]

And Buffy wasn't "going over the line" when she beat his face into a hamburger in Dead Things? Meh.

Do I really have to pick between absurd whitewashing and absurd political correctness in the case of the attempted rape? Isn't there, like, an in-between? 'Cause, you know, trying to kill someone, as Angel did with Buffy in Season 2, is just as bad as trying to rape someone, at least in my universe.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

And Buffy wasn't "going over the line" when she beat his face into a hamburger in Dead Things? Meh.

Do I really have to pick between absurd whitewashing and absurd political correctness in the case of the attempted rape? Isn't there, like, an in-between? 'Cause, you know, trying to kill someone, as Angel did with Buffy in Season 2, is just as bad as trying to rape someone, at least in my universe.

I agree. People just like to bash Spike 🙂 It's payback for all the horrible things he's done. Yet, it seems like Angel always gets off the hook, even despite the fact that arguably, he was worse then Spike ever was.

As Spike says to Angel in S5 "Drusilla made me a man, but you made me a monster." (or something to that effect 🙂

 

[Primal Slayer]

And Buffy wasn't "going over the line" when she beat his face into a hamburger in Dead Things? Meh.

Do I really have to pick between absurd whitewashing and absurd political correctness in the case of the attempted rape? Isn't there, like, an in-between? 'Cause, you know, trying to kill someone, as Angel did with Buffy in Season 2, is just as bad as trying to rape someone, at least in my universe.

Well Angelus tried to kill Buffy. He didnt try to rape her.

Spike tried to kill Buffy for 3years and tried to rape her. After Spike got his soul, it took time but Buffy ended up being able to basically forgive him.

I agree. People just like to bash Spike 🙂 It's payback for all the horrible things he's done. Yet, it seems like Angel always gets off the hook, even despite the fact that arguably, he was worse then Spike ever was.

As Spike says to Angel in S5 "Drusilla made me a man, but you made me a monster." (or something to that effect 🙂

And people like to think Spike is innocent in everything and should be treated like the saint he never was.

I know its hard to look at it from the charecters POV but I bet majority of the people around here would not forgive Spike after he spent 3 years trying to kill you and attempted to rape you.

But hey I am in the minority who thinks Spike should have been dusted during S4 or 5 (though I enjoyed his charecter during S5 of Angel)

 

[Enisy]

Well Angelus tried to kill Buffy. He didnt try to rape her.

Did I say he did? And if you think that has any bearing on my argument, you might want to reread my post.

Spike tried to kill Buffy for 3years and tried to rape her. After Spike got his soul, it took time but Buffy ended up being able to basically forgive him.

Yes: just like she forgave Angel for trying to kill her. And no reason why she shouldn't, in both cases.

And people like to think Spike is innocent in everything and should be treated like the saint he never was.

Again, reread my post. Didn't I explicitly state I'm not fond of the whitewashing going on in this thread?

I know its hard to look at it from the charecters POV but I bet majority of the people around here would not forgive Spike after he spent 3 years trying to kill you and attempted to rape you.

These simplistic "I would not forgive him" or "you would not forgive him" hypotheses don't make for very convincing arguments, as I am not a vampire slayer with Buffy's personality and Buffy's background and Buffy's history with Spike in Buffy's fictional universe with its own fictional set of rules and "customized" morality. 😉

 

[cryptwarmer]

I read it. Frankly, it creeps me out that anyone would try to classify his actions as anything less than attempted rape, regardless of intent. Lots of rapists truly believe their victims want to give it up, for a variety of reasons, and that if their victims would "just relax" then everyone would have a good time. Believing in any kind of twisted way that she felt for him (which I believe he did) doesn't make his actions any less horrifying.

His actions were horrifying. I, Spike, Buffy and all her friends agree.

But they didn't take place in a vacuum. If what he did was attempt to rape her, then what do we call what Buffy did, over the course of months of their relationship?

She ignored his pleas, his boundaries (emotional and physical) time and time again. She trained him to believe that while she said she had no feelings for him, that if they got rough, she would act otherwise.

She'd beat him...then have raunchy sex with him. She'd tell him she didn't trust him, but turn to him time and time again to come to her aid. She told him there was no chance of anything happening between them, then minutes later jumped him and undid his pants...

Buffy mindf***ed Spike repeatedly.

What is the word for that?

If it is truly black/white then Buffy herself is just as guilty. If he is nothing but a souless monster, the slayer should have killed him ages ago. If it's more complicated than that, and I think it is, then I don't think it's fair to say "rape" and that all her actions following were justified.

He acted horrifically, in response to months of horrific treatment and abuse by someone he cared for deeply, who had repeatedly lied to him, led him on, ignored his boundaries, and behaved violently toward him.

Oh yes, Spike is guilty of rape of countless girls/women over a century of vampiring, and Buffy should have killed him along time ago. But what happened in that bathroom was something that Buffy did bring upon herself. She always wanted to be able to make the rules and change the rules as it suited her. She made him think those were the rules, then called it "rape" when he acted on them.

I do not condone rape, or forcing anyone to have sex against their will, ever.

Not even when Buffy does it.

And I don't think the fact that he "gave in" or enjoyed the sex when she forced past his boundaries makes it OK, or less horrific that she ignored his boudaries.

If it's wrong, it's wrong for everyone.

They had a really sad relationship.

I enjoy Spike's character, but I am not a Spuffy fan. What they did to one another was sick, and it was no prettier when Buffy violated him than when he attempted to violate her.

But there is no handy term for what women sometimes do to men that is every bit as horrific, damaging, and power driven as rape.

 

[Enisy]

"But Buffy started it!" is playground-logic. Instead of debating whether it was Buffy's or Spike's conduct that was "the lesser of two evils" in Season 6, can't we just assign them both the about-equal blame they deserve and be happy for the "very grown-up and romantic and confusing" relationship they had in Season 7, according to Joss? And even happier, I would say, for the sheer potential that episodes like "Intervention", "Flooded", "Life Serial", "All the Way", "Showtime", "Chosen" etc. hinted at, and that canon has yet to negate.

 

[MichelleBFT]

But what happened in that bathroom was something that Buffy did bring upon herself.

And that's where you lost me, and will continue to lose me. Sorry.

I get what you're trying to say, Buffy did some nasty things to Spike, and you're right. And you're right, they're both guilty. But I will never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever agree on the idea that Buffy brought attempted rape on herself. Period.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

His actions were horrifying. I, Spike, Buffy and all her friends agree.

But they didn't take place in a vacuum. If what he did was attempt to rape her, then what do we call what Buffy did, over the course of months of their relationship?

She ignored his pleas, his boundaries (emotional and physical) time and time again. She trained him to believe that while she said she had no feelings for him, that if they got rough, she would act otherwise.

She'd beat him...then have raunchy sex with him. She'd tell him she didn't trust him, but turn to him time and time again to come to her aid. She told him there was no chance of anything happening between them, then minutes later jumped him and undid his pants...

Buffy mindf***ed Spike repeatedly.

What is the word for that?

If it is truly black/white then Buffy herself is just as guilty. If he is nothing but a souless monster, the slayer should have killed him ages ago. If it's more complicated than that, and I think it is, then I don't think it's fair to say "rape" and that all her actions following were justified.

He acted horrifically, in response to months of horrific treatment and abuse by someone he cared for deeply, who had repeatedly lied to him, led him on, ignored his boundaries, and behaved violently toward him.

Oh yes, Spike is guilty of rape of countless girls/women over a century of vampiring, and Buffy should have killed him along time ago. But what happened in that bathroom was something that Buffy did bring upon herself. She always wanted to be able to make the rules and change the rules as it suited her. She made him think those were the rules, then called it "rape" when he acted on them.

I do not condone rape, or forcing anyone to have sex against their will, ever.

Not even when Buffy does it.

And I don't think the fact that he "gave in" or enjoyed the sex when she forced past his boundaries makes it OK, or less horrific that she ignored his boudaries.

If it's wrong, it's wrong for everyone.

They had a really sad relationship.

I enjoy Spike's character, but I am not a Spuffy fan. What they did to one another was sick, and it was no prettier when Buffy violated him than when he attempted to violate her.

But there is no handy term for what women sometimes do to men that is every bit as horrific, damaging, and power driven as rape.

Very nice insights. I think what it boils down too is that Spike was confused about the boundaries of their relationship. He realized what he did was so wrong - he left. He regained his soul in an attempt to make it up to her.

No one says what Spike did was OK. That scene is hard for me to watch. But we should all agree (if that's possible) that he did everything he could to make it up to her.

Lesson in life kids: when in sexual relationships, know what your boundaries are and stat them plainly. And hold the the other person to the same level. 🙂

As I'd said, I am bias - I love Spike - but I am trying to see all sides of his argument. I do not love what he did but I feel he is one of the most complex characters on the show.

 

[Primal Slayer]

These simplistic "I would not forgive him" or "you would not forgive him" hypotheses don't make for very convincing arguments, as I am not a vampire slayer with Buffy's personality and Buffy's background and Buffy's history with Spike in Buffy's fictional universe with its own fictional set of rules and "customized" morality. 😉

Thats why I said its hard to look at it from their POV. But Buffy was still a human being even if she was a slayer and at that moment she wasnt the slayer just like when Joyce died, she wasnt the slayer, she was a normal person dealing with a tragedy.

 

[cryptwarmer]

And that's where you lost me, and will continue to lose me. Sorry.

I get what you're trying to say, Buffy did some nasty things to Spike, and you're right. And you're right, they're both guilty. But I will never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever agree on the idea that Buffy brought attempted rape on herself. Period.

No need to apologize to me. Yours is a valid and popular stance.

But I would suggest, as another poster did, that people be very clear and consistent right from the start about their parameters in a relationship and treat their SO with the respect they hope to receive in return.

"I can treat you any way I please, but you have to treat me exactly as I say, and that will change daily according to my mood" leads to loads of trouble, in the relationship, and later in court.

I hope most of us, if such a thing happened to us would be able to say "I never gave you ANY reason to think that behavior was acceptable"

Buffy, unfortunately can't say that.

This is also a problem when someone chooses to date someone who has spent a century raping, killing and torturing others, and has no soul or remorse for their actions. It's a bit unreasonable to think that you won't one day suffer the same at their hands. Sad but true.

I love the characters, but I hate what they did to one another.
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"But Buffy started it!" is playground-logic. Instead of debating whether it was Buffy's or Spike's conduct that was "the lesser of two evils" in Season 6, can't we just assign them both the about-equal blame they deserve and be happy for the "very grown-up and romantic and confusing" relationship they had in Season 7, according to Joss? And even happier, I would say, for the sheer potential that episodes like "Intervention", "Flooded", "Life Serial", "All the Way", "Showtime", "Chosen" etc. hinted at, and that canon has yet to negate.

We can...but it's interesting to hash it out. Interesting to learn how the behaviors of the characters is interpreted and "judged" by other fans. I mean, that's why we are here on these boards.

We all like the show, but we want to go deeper than that.

And who "started it", does matter. I mean, if you are on trial for killing someone, whether or not they "started it", and your actions were in self defense does make a difference.

I'm not sure that Buffy DID start it, Spike was bad from the word go, and when others would forget that, he was the first, by word and deed to quickly remind them that he was "evil". I mean, it's a running joke on the show, but it's also true at a real level.

He was bad.

So, it's pretty silly of me to feel sorry for him when Buffy is not being nice to him, because, well, he's bad...but that's the power of the writing, the acting and my own emotions for the character. That is what makes the show great, it makes us care, it makes us think, and years after it's off the air, it makes us get to know ourselves and one another better through discussions such as this.

Agreement is ok...but not as much fun. lol.

conflict is what keeps the show, and these boards interesting.