Do you pledge?

[msfantastico87]

Ok, I'm not a very political person. Heck, I could care less. However, I was having a conversation with a friend over twitter, about how she kept getting negative feedback on her comment on pledging allegiance to the American Flag. For those of you who are unfamiliar with the pledge of allegiance, here is some background on it's origin:

The Pledge of Allegiance was written in August 1892 by the socialist minister Francis Bellamy (1855-1931). It was originally published in The Youth's Companion on September 8, 1892. Bellamy had hoped that the pledge would be used by citizens in any country.

In its original form it read:

"I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
In 1923, the words, "the Flag of the United States of America" were added. At this time it read:

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
In 1954, in response to the Communist threat of the times, President Eisenhower encouraged Congress to add the words "under God," creating the 31-word pledge we say today. Bellamy's daughter objected to this alteration. Today it reads:

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
Section 4 of the Flag Code states:

The Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag: "I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.", should be rendered by standing at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart. When not in uniform men should remove any non-religious headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Persons in uniform should remain silent, face the flag, and render the military salute."
The original Bellamy salute, first described in 1892 by Francis Bellamy, who authored the original Pledge, began with a military salute, and after reciting the words "to the flag," the arm was extended toward the flag.

At a signal from the Principal the pupils, in ordered ranks, hands to the side, face the Flag. Another signal is given; every pupil gives the flag the military salute "” right hand lifted, palm downward, to a line with the forehead and close to it. Standing thus, all repeat together, slowly, "I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands; one Nation indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all." At the words, "to my Flag," the right hand is extended gracefully, palm upward, toward the Flag, and remains in this gesture till the end of the affirmation; whereupon all hands immediately drop to the side.

It began as an intensive communing with salient points of our national history, from the Declaration of Independence onwards; with the makings of the Constitution...with the meaning of the Civil War; with the aspiration of the people...

The true reason for allegiance to the Flag is the 'republic for which it stands.' ...And what does that vast thing, the Republic mean? It is the concise political word for the Nation - the One Nation which the Civil War was fought to prove. To make that One Nation idea clear, we must specify that it is indivisible, as Webster and Lincoln used to repeat in their great speeches. And its future?

Just here arose the temptation of the historic slogan of the French Revolution which meant so much to Jefferson and his friends, 'Liberty, equality, fraternity.' No, that would be too fanciful, too many thousands of years off in realization. But we as a nation do stand square on the doctrine of liberty and justice for all...

Sources: http://www.ushistory.org/documents/pledge.htm
http://www.oldtimeislands.org/pledge/pledge.htm

Wake up people! I know it's boring crap lol but I wanted to make sure everyone was on the same page before I asked my questions! 😛 Although now I understand why it's done, but I still have no idea why public school systems enforce the children to pledge allegiance to the American Flag. To me, it's not a big deal. I've gotten in trouble so many times in school my entire life for not doing it. So my questions to my fellow Americans are these:

• Do you pledge allegiance?
• If you don't, why don't you?
• If you do, why do you?
• Do you think it is unpatriotic to not pledge allegiance?
• Do you find it offensive if people don't do it?

To all you non-American's:

I know you guys must have something similar in your countries. My question to you guys are:

• Do you guys have anything similar to the pledge of allegiance?
• Do you support it? Why or why not?
• Do you consider it unpatriotic and offensive if people don't support it?

I just want to clear up any doubts: I am in no way trying to make a debate thread on politics (crap scares me!). I am simply a curious girl. I really would like to know everyones thoughts on patriotism. i Unfortunately, I don't know much about the other countries, I never stayed awake long enough to retain any information! So in a way, this is really helping me to further my understanding of other countries politics and how it differs from ours. Also, I honestly don't think there are any right or wrong answers to any of those questions. Like I said, it's just me and my curiosity! (I hope I don't die soon, damn curiosity!). Also, depending on what answers I get, I may or may not have some follow up questions, to further cure my curiosity! 😛 So post away and please remember:

PLEASE KEEP THIS CIVIL!

 

[Abbeycat]

* Do you pledge allegiance? I did in school whenever we did it in school. But I don't have a American flag and so I don't do it now...
* If you don't, why don't you?
* If you do, why do you? I did it because...I don't know. Everyone else was doing it. I didn't have a reason not to. And it's not like I didn't want to. So I did it.
* Do you think it is unpatriotic to not pledge allegiance? I don't really know what I think of not pledging allegiance. I don't really think about it.
* Do you find it offensive if people don't do it? Not really.

 

[xfivebyfive]

I never had to say the pledge of allegiance in elementary school or middle school or highschool. The only time I ever had to say it was when I worked at a summer camp and they made everyone say it in the morning before announcements. And I would say it along with the kids and other staff.

Personally I don't care. I say the pledge. Is it patriotic? Sure. But I don't consider myself un-patriotic. But I wouldn't exactly say I'm patriotic either.

Do I care if people dont? Not really. I more care about why they don't want to. If you choose not too there is a reason. Whether its because you don't consider yourself patriotic or you have a problem with the pledge itself. That's more what I care about.

 

[zobothehobo]

I don't. It started as something I did to look interesting at school. Well actually, it started as not saying "under God" but the start of not saying the pledge entirely was to look interesting and because my mom had issue with it and she was interesting. In high school, I always had to have controversy surrounding me... that was my reputation I had to keep up. At my school the rule was that the Pledge had to be said and people had to be lead in saying the Pledge, but you didn't have to say it. I have always thought it stupid to pledge to the flag even if it's also "to the republic for which it stands." And even at that... it's sticky what that means in terms of politics and such.

That all being said, I love my country very much and it is in no way unpatriotic not to say the Pledge.

 

[prophecygrrl]

Hmm...I said it in elementary school and middle school because all the teachers made us, then stopped in high school because it was optional and most kids didn't do it anyway.

Looking back, I'm a bit uncomfortable with pledging things when I had no idea of the true implications, and I'm not too fond of the 'under God' part either(no offense to religious people meant, I just like my church and state separated! 😛). That said, I do respect people's choices when it comes to the pledge. Both people who choose to say it and people who don't.

I don't think it's unpatriotic to not say it... I'm a big fan of Howard Zinn, and like he says...dissent is the highest form of patriotism. 🙂

 

[StarSlayer]

Do you pledge allegiance? I did in elementary school and high school.

If you do, why do you? When I was younger (like 6 years old), I never gave it much thought since that it just what we did. It was part of the morning routine. As I got older, I appreciated it more because it reminded me of the lives sacrificed during wars, and how the troops are still fighting and defending our nation today.

Do you think it is unpatriotic to not pledge allegiance? I guess it depends on their reason, but I would find it a bit unpatriotic.

Do you find it offensive if people don't do it? Not really. I respect people's choices if they choose not to.

 

[brinkster130]

Do you pledge allegiance? Yup with my right hand over my heart. I did while in school and still do when I am at an event where it is being said.
If you don't, why don't you? I've never not done it.
If you do, why do you? Why not? I personally have no problem saying it and I have not problem being patriotic....seems respectful to say it.
Do you think it is unpatriotic to not pledge allegiance? Depends on the situation, in some cases I do think it would be unpatriotic. (like a funeral for a fallen soldier)
Do you find it offensive if people don't do it? Nope,to each his own. But I have found myself annoyed or distracted by people who are laughing do disruptive during it, that is a bit rude.

 

[sk]

Don't think we have something similiar here in Sweden.

And to be perfectly honest the whole thing just seems extremely silly to me. Just can't see the point of it.
It's just words... anyone can say them. It tells you nothing about the person saying them imho. So why bother?

Having said that I should add that I would probably do it if told so in school though. To avoid drama if nothing else.

/SK

 

[xaphania]

I don't think there's anything similar here in England, either. Can't think of it, if there is!

In my city at least it's quite hard for patriotic people to be patriotic without being accused of racism or anti-multiculturalism or being part of the BNP.

There's some people who live about five minutes away from me; know them through friends of friends of friends (lol) and they have a St. George Cross painted on their house wall and a flag in the garden. They're patriotic and proud of the country... but get branded as racists amongst a lot of local people.

I dunno how it is in other parts of England. I live in a big multicultural city so perhaps it's different elsewhere.

Oh it's just occurred to me that we have the national anthem... but it's not sung day-to-day. I'd bet most people don't know the lyrics beyond "God save our gracious queen, long live our noble queen". Myself included, but then I have issues with that being our national anthem anyway.

So um... I dunno if this answers any of your questions Jo!

 

[InsaneMystic]

To all you non-American's:

I know you guys must have something similar in your countries. My question to you guys are:

• Do you guys have anything similar to the pledge of allegiance?
• Do you support it? Why or why not?
• Do you consider it unpatriotic and offensive if people don't support it?

We don't have anything like that over here, and it would probably create massive public outrage if anyone tried to establish it... but of course, any outward display of patriotism outside the realm of sports is, for obvious historical reasons, a touchy and uncomfortable thing for Germans anyway.

The closest thing to it I've experienced would be the morning prayer before first lesson - I went to a Catholic school, though, that would definitely not be done everywhere. As long as you don't show any obvious disruptance/disrespect, in our school you would not be expected to actually make the sign of the cross and speak the prayer as long as you don't make a fuss about not doing it. (If you'd sit cross-armed and ask loudly "can we keep seated if we don't believe in God?", you'd get shortly told off and told to at least stand up, but not face any consequence beyond that.)

 

[sisterofmercy]

We don't have a British equivalent, thankfully we're not a very patriotic country. The whole patriotism thing seems a bit ridiculous to me, I couldn't care less about the monarchy and the Government is often in hot water.

 

[Washburne]

Don't think we have something similiar here in Sweden.

Can't think of anything either. We sometimes sing the national anthem though. 😉

Showing patriotism doesn't have to be bad but action always speak louder than words. And what are words if you don't live by them? Just a silly way to make you look "good". Believe me I could have a huge rant about this in Sweden but I'll spare you. Having something to strive against doesn't hurt though.

Back to patriotism. In my mind it's about being proud of your country. Not about being scared of or see different things as wrong. As for my own patriotism, I like some things about Sweden and I don't mind telling people that's where I'm from but there's lots of things I dislike or are ashamed of as well. Swedish and proud. But in a general sense.

 

[Wishing Oceans]

I pledge allegiance in school because they make us do so, but I take my hand off my heart and discontinue my speech when I get to the "under god" part. Rebellious, I know. 😛

I remember a kid back in 6th grade getting punished for not saying the pledge. I think that's very wrong, and I wish that I had spoken up about it before. I don't really see the point of the pledge, anyway. Yeah, we're all very patriotic, that's great, do we really have to give the exact same speech about it as an every day ritual? Surely our memories are not so limited. 😉

 

[Flannen]

Beyond the National Anthem at sporting events and the like, the only thing I can think of that all English people do is two minutes silence for Rememberance Day. Which it could be argued is linked to patriotism but it's also, obviously, showing respect for and remembering our lost soldiers.

I'm conflicted about patriotism. I love my country in terms of its beauty and how lucky I am to be living in a country that is, for the most part, 'free'. However, the only times I find this country actually tries to be patriotic is during the World Cup which tends to turn a lot of people into morons. The last World Cup controversy surrounding football shirts and flags is an incredibly touchy subject for me and made me very angry. Recently I've felt that for a lot of people any sense of patriotism in England at the moment comes from the controversy that xaphania has mentioned and is largely abused and for completely the wrong reasons. Through things like Facebook I've recently associated 'patriotism' with ignorant people who will believe anything and instead of spreading pride for their country, spread hatred for some of those living in it.

I think its cool for the US to be as patriotic as they are, I appreciate their love for their country. Don't really know how I feel about this pledge thing. I can get why people would find it odd but I find it harder to understand why your friend would be criticised for supporting it.

 

[msfantastico87]

Thanks for all of your answer. Would like to get some more replies from people, American or not. I like to compare and contrast our countries 😉

It seems to me that a few of us have a problem with the "Under God" portion of the pledge. Like prophecygrrl stated, I also like Church and State separate. I personally never understood why on earth the American public school system allows, no, enforces, us to pledge in the morning before all of our classes. Especially with that specific line. I've seen people who praise Allah and Buddha, and people that aren't religious at all get suspended or even expelled for not pledging allegiance. I think it's ridiculous! I know it is meant to honor the fallen soldiers and what not, but times change, so if anything, I think the pledge should have been tweaked once more to fit todays culture. As I posted before, it has been tweaked several times, why not tweak it again? It would most certainly gain more respect for those that aren't very religious.

Ok, so I have a few follow up questions for some of you:

Do you think it is unpatriotic to not pledge allegiance? I guess it depends on their reason, but I would find it a bit unpatriotic.

Do you find it offensive if people don't do it? Not really. I respect people's choices if they choose not to.

Hmmm, I feel like you're being quite vague hun, do you mind giving me some examples of reasons that you would find it unpatriotic?

Do you find it offensive if people don't do it? Nope,to each his own. But I have found myself annoyed or distracted by people who are laughing do disruptive during it, that is a bit rude.

Agreed. People who do indeed pledge, yet decide to be immature little *insert curse word here* and start laughing or being just plain stupid just makes me think, why are you pledging in the first place?

There's some people who live about five minutes away from me; know them through friends of friends of friends (lol) and they have a St. George Cross painted on their house wall and a flag in the garden. They're patriotic and proud of the country... but get branded as racists amongst a lot of local people.

Could you give me some background or historical references, because I really don't understand what you mean and I'd like to make sure I understand completely before I say I agree/disagree with UK's patriotism. Like right now, I don't understand why having a flag and a cross at your house makes you racist lol

Oh it's just occurred to me that we have the national anthem... but it's not sung day-to-day. I'd bet most people don't know the lyrics beyond "God save our gracious queen, long live our noble queen". Myself included, but then I have issues with that being our national anthem anyway.

I guess this could be the same thing as our National Anthem. We sing it mostly at sporting events but I never understood why lol. Why do you guys sing it? Would you get weird looks or comments if you didn't sing it?

The closest thing to it I've experienced would be the morning prayer before first lesson - I went to a Catholic school, though, that would definitely not be done everywhere.

So this is where I am confused...I have never been to a catholic school (thank goodness I would have shot myself) but I've always wondered, what if you aren't religious at all and your parents forced you in? Wouldn't they have to respect your beliefs and make exceptions to those that don't believe in prayer? IDK about American catholic Schools her in the US, but in public schools here, at least the ones I've attended, you get reprimanded for praying(even though they would prefer you being religious rather than not). It's this whole thing about equal rights blah blah blah.

I think its cool for the US to be as patriotic as they are, I appreciate their love for their country. Don't really know how I feel about this pledge thing. I can get why people would find it odd but I find it harder to understand why your friend would be criticised for supporting it.

Well there are different parts of the US that have different reasons for their patriotism. Which I will get into here after I have gotten a few responses. The country is still quite segregated and it makes me sad to think that this kind of crap still goes on in our country.

As for my friend, she actually agrees with me. We both don't see the big deal in it. However, she voiced out her opinion before I did and she started getting bashed because of it, telling her how un-patriotic she was because she doesn't understand why we must do it. And neither do I. I mean, isn't it all just symbolism?

 

[Flannen]

Could you give me some background or historical references, because I really don't understand what you mean and I'd like to make sure I understand completely before I say I agree/disagree with UK's patriotism. Like right now, I don't understand why having a flag and a cross at your house makes you racist lol

This may not be background/historical references and will, in large part, reflect my feelings but I'll throw something out there anyway because in some ways it kind of relates back to my other post about British Patriotism.

In Britain there is a political party called the BNP (British National Party) who are, as far as I'm concerned, utterly despicable racists and white supremacists. They make a lot of noise about how the residents of England should 'indigenous'. I'm trying to be as careful as I can here lol but I'm sure you can see that they take a lot of issue with immigration and migrant workers. But, lets just say, their campaign isn't exactly water tight...look them up on wikipedia or something, it may be more objective lol

There has been a lot of controversy in the UK recently over political correctness and multiculturalism, stirred up by the media and mob mentality. For some reason a lot of people seem to be under the impression that to display an English/British flag is frowned upon in case it upsets people from other countries/ethnic backgrounds. It's a load of crap if you ask me and this is where my other post comes in. While its not true of all, there are a lot of people displaying St George crosses on their houses and their cars (particularly during the World Cup) BECAUSE of the controversy. There was so much stuff on FB about how people were going to do it SO that they could offend people. Which is where my conflict about patriotism comes in. Because if THAT is what England is like then what the heck have I got to be proud of? In some ways, displaying the flag etc is associated with the BNP and that is how it links to racism and white supremacy.

Anyway back to the pledge, I misread what you said at first, I thought you're friend was being criticised because she was FOR it lol. I see what you're saying about it all being symbolism but I guess there are just a lot of people who don't like change and want to keep to traditions? There's no explanation or reason for it, that justifies it but I think that has a lot to do with it.

 

[InsaneMystic]

So this is where I am confused...I have never been to a catholic school (thank goodness I would have shot myself) but I've always wondered, what if you aren't religious at all and your parents forced you in? Wouldn't they have to respect your beliefs and make exceptions to those that don't believe in prayer? IDK about American catholic Schools her in the US, but in public schools here, at least the ones I've attended, you get reprimanded for praying(even though they would prefer you being religious rather than not). It's this whole thing about equal rights blah blah blah.

In our school, you wouldn't be accepted in if you weren't (at least nominally) Christian, not necessarily Catholic, we did have a (small, like 5-10%) Protestant minority. Up until Oberstufe (years 11-13, so that's about from age 16 on up) it would have been expected to join the prayer (or at the very least not to disrupt it); in Oberstufe, there would not usually be morning prayers anymore (we only had one teacher to still start first lesson by prayer in those last three years, and it wasn't even our R.E. teacher but the German Literature one). I guess 16 is the age where they start recognizing your religious views as your personal choice/decision (confession in the strict sense), instead of something you just follow suit because your parents and everyone else does it (tradition).

(BTW, I'm not saying that having your parents' religious views be the "default" for you until age 16 is the right way to go, just that it was handled that way in our school, in practice.)

 

[StarSlayer]

Hmmm, I feel like you're being quite vague hun, do you mind giving me some examples of reasons that you would find it unpatriotic?

Nope 😛 Not going to go there. Sorry 🙂

 

[msfantastico87]

There has been a lot of controversy in the UK recently over political correctness and multiculturalism, stirred up by the media and mob mentality. For some reason a lot of people seem to be under the impression that to display an English/British flag is frowned upon in case it upsets people from other countries/ethnic backgrounds. It's a load of crap if you ask me and this is where my other post comes in. While its not true of all, there are a lot of people displaying St George crosses on their houses and their cars (particularly during the World Cup) BECAUSE of the controversy. There was so much stuff on FB about how people were going to do it SO that they could offend people. Which is where my conflict about patriotism comes in. Because if THAT is what England is like then what the heck have I got to be proud of? In some ways, displaying the flag etc is associated with the BNP and that is how it links to racism and white supremacy.

Ok that does explain it a bit for me, I'm starting to understand now. I still don't understand why they would think it to be racist though. Why conform to other countries beliefs and what not? Shouldn't you be allowed to wave your flag proud? I mean, come on, it is your country after all. I don't quite understand how it would make people from other countries upset. They do know they are living in a country that is not their own right? I guess it would have to depend on how long you were living there. I plan on moving to the UK soon for a year so I'm trying to get as much info as I can about them lol 😛

This is reminding me about something I see here in Orlando, Fl quite often. In Florida in general, there are more people from other countries than there are American's. Take Miami for instance, There are mostly Cubans there. Orlando is overrun with Brazilians. I don't care about it. Some people do. They get upset and feel like they are trying to overrun our state. Don't know how it is in other states, but here in Orlando, Almost every house you pass by that is owned by a Brazilian is sporting a Brazilian flag.

Is anyone for or against sporting your flag in another country? And I don't mean inside your home either. I mean hanging off your balcony for everyone to see. Do you find it rude and intrusive?

I guess 16 is the age where they start recognizing your religious views as your personal choice/decision (confession in the strict sense), instead of something you just follow suit because your parents and everyone else does it (tradition).

Thanks for clarifying. However, if age 16 is the age they expect you to come to terms with your religion, would you be able to leave and transfer to a public school on your own if you realized you weren't?

 

[Flannen]

Ok that does explain it a bit for me, I'm starting to understand now. I still don't understand why they would think it to be racist though. Why conform to other countries beliefs and what not? Shouldn't you be allowed to wave your flag proud? I mean, come on, it is your country after all. I don't quite understand how it would make people from other countries upset. They do know they are living in a country that is not their own right? I guess it would have to depend on how long you were living there. I plan on moving to the UK soon for a year so I'm trying to get as much info as I can about them lol 😛

Well this is the thing. As far as I'm concerned no one (as in those from other countries) actually think it's racist! That's my huge issue with it. People hear these things, believe them straight up with no thought and then this mob mentality appears. It gets printed in the tabloids, and spread around Facebook and then suddenly there's 1000s of British people making hateful comments about people from other countries/nationalities. As far as I'm aware, ethnic groups are fully aware they're not living in their own country lol but like I said these things very rarely, if EVER, actually come from anywhere but the media and ignorant, uninformed Facebook groups.

I don't think it's racist to display a flag to support your country. But sadly, the cynic in me doesn't feel like that's why a lot of it occurs you know?