Question Do you think it was the right decision to have Spike fall in love with Buffy?

[Moscow Watcher]

What I do find him, is boring and unauthentic. And that's why I dislike his falling for Buffy. To me it stripped him of some of his previously most compelling personality traits. On top of that, it led to some of my most hated episodes and seasons.

I wonder which of evil Spike's personality traits you found the most compelling.

To me it was his ability to love and to care about a woman he loves. Him not being afraid of a stronger woman. His loyalty.

And (maybe I shouldn't say it) he was so pretty when he was in pain...

I imagine if we had met Angelus first and he ended up falling for Buffy you would hear very similar complaints from fans.

LOL, yes!

 

[StarSlayer]

I imagine if we had met Angelus first and he ended up falling for Buffy you would hear very similar complaints from fans.

I'm really curious why though. Whether it's Angelus or Spike, it's still an evil vampire falling in love with the slayer. Someone they are suppose to kill. That storyline sparks my interest. It keeps me wanting more. I still don't see how it's a bad thing the show took that approach with Spike because for me, the storyline helped his character grow. If it was Angelus instead of Spike, I would have felt the exact same way (believe it or not). 🙂

 

[Kean]

I wonder which of evil Spike's personality traits you found the most compelling.

His dedication to Dru. To spend all the years loving someone and still feel that strongly about them.

Of course, I thought he was funny and for awhile he even seemed a bit dangerous. Like he was capable of being a real threat.

But, it soon became clear that he was just talking up a big game. At least when it came to Sunnydale.

What I also hated was the fact that he would have killed Dru for Buffy. Everything that his life was before, everything he valued was wiped out and filled with Buffy. That, more than anything else, led to my extreme dislike of Spike.

None of his loyalty seemed true, or honest. Not to me anyway.

---------- Post added at 09:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:46 PM ----------

I'm really curious why though. Whether it's Angelus or Spike, it's still an evil vampire falling in love with the slayer. Someone they are suppose to kill. That storyline sparks my interest. It keeps me wanting more. I still don't see how it's a bad thing the show took that approach with Spike because for me, the storyline helped his character grow. If it was Angelus instead of Spike, I would have felt the exact same way (believe it or not). 🙂

My stance wouldn't change either! I'd still hate it. Even on a fantasy show it doesn't ring true at all.

 

[StarSlayer]

Even on a fantasy show it doesn't ring true at all.

??? Can you elaborate on this? I'm just trying to understand. 🙂

 

[Moscow Watcher]

His dedication to Dru. To spend all the years loving someone and still feel that strongly about them.

Of course, I thought he was funny and for awhile he even seemed a bit dangerous. Like he was capable of being a real threat.

But, it soon became clear that he was just talking up a big game. At least when it came to Sunnydale.

What I also hated was the fact that he would have killed Dru for Buffy. Everything that his life was before, everything he valued was wiped out and filled with Buffy. That, more than anything else, led to my extreme dislike of Spike.

None of his loyalty seemed true, or honest. Not to me anyway.

---------- Post added at 09:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:46 PM ----------



My stance wouldn't change either! I'd still hate it. Even on a fantasy show it doesn't ring true at all.

Don't you think that pretty much the same happened to Angel?

His love for Darla was epic. He loved her for several hundred years. And, once he met Buffy, everything that his life was before, everything he valued was wiped out and filled with Buffy.

Not only he would have killed Darla for Buffy, he actually did it.

While after leaving Buffy he got obsessed with Darla again.

I reread my reply and I see that it sounds more confrontational than I intended. I just wanted to say that we love one characters for exactly the same things that we hate in other characters. It can't be rationalized, apparently. 🙂

 

[Kean]

??? Can you elaborate on this? I'm just trying to understand. 🙂

Angelus being Angelus would never fall for Buffy. It just wouldn't happen. He was with Darla for over a hundred years and still he never cared for her that deeply. The only person that moved Angelus, was well, Angelus. He loved his artistry, and the pain he inflicted.

As well as that, Buffy being Buffy would never fall for Angelus. She may be attracted to him (the girl has eyes!), maybe intrigued or fascinated by him, but she would never feel love for him.

For Buffy and Angelus to ever happen they would have to turned into different characters. He would have to be less evil and Buffy would have to be more morally grey.

Or to be more blunt, Angelus would have to have a chip put in his head and have a lobotomy and Buffy would have to be clinically depressed. 😛

Neither of them, fully conscious and of right mind, would feel for the other. If they did, then they wouldn't be the characters they are.

---------- Post added at 10:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:00 PM ----------

Don't you think that pretty much the same happened to Angel?

His love for Darla was epic. He loved her for several hundred years. And, once he met Buffy, everything that his life was before, everything he valued was wiped out and filled with Buffy.

Not only he would have killed Darla for Buffy, he actually did it.

While after leaving Buffy he got obsessed with Darla again.

Was it honest to you? Loyal?

I don't think they were quite so similar.

I don't think Angelus ever loved Darla. In fact, Angel says as much too Darla. Angelus wasn't capable of love. We were never shown evidence of him loving Darla.

Second of all, Angel wasn't changed by Buffy (at least when it comes to Darla), he was changed by his soul. I don't even think he killed Darla for Buffy, it certainly wasn't done so as to prove his affections for Buffy. I think he killed her because she was trying to kill Buffy. If she didn't have two guns in her hands at the time I'd wager he would have let her go. Just as he always let Dru go.

As for his obsession with Darla in his own show I don't think there is a betrayal to Buffy and his feelings for her. She wasn't a factor in the situation at all. However, Spike made Dru a factor in his love for Buffy.

Although, there may be a case for Angel betraying Buffy in trying to lose his soul with Darla. Not that he was sleeping with someone else, but after the horrors of Sunnydale and the emotional cost to Buffy, that he would carelessly try and lose it again. There is a definite argument there for him betraying her. And their relationship.


EDIT

Just on your edited point MW, I don't love Angel for killing Darla. I don't see it as evidence as love for Buffy. It's just something he did. And I didn't think your post was confrontational at all 🙂

 

[Doppelgang]

Again with the strawman. Did I say I wanted the characters to stay school outcasts forever? I don't think I did. I am saying that they faced their internal demons from day one. It's not something season six invented.

When did I say season 6 invented it? You're setting up your own strawmen to knock down and ignoring my argument. Very convenient. It explored the concept in more depth and originality based on the way the season ended, i.e. a battle with internal demons being fought not a battle with an external demon, the structure of it built up to this conclusion rather than the conclusion of defeating a big bad e.g. Master, Angelus, Mayor, Adam, Glory, First Evil and Caleb, that covers all the other series and makes it original relative to them, it doesn't make it an invention but thats your term not mine.

You are still not getting, are you? It's not about good and bad. It's about consistency. Would you say it's okay if in the odd numbered episodes vampires could come in without invitation and walk in sunlight while in the even numbered they couldn't? Or if half the episodes Xander was a genius, in the other half a total moron? If in one episode it took two hours to get from Sunnydale to LA, while in another it took five days with the same vehicle and driver?

When did these things happen, and what have they got to do with Whether it was right for them to have Spike fall in love with Buffy. How random and off-topic do you want to get? I say your logic can't comprehend how things are ambiguous between good and bad, and this is supposed to be a response to that?

In my view, It very much is about good and bad, you can't separate logic from the content of the things you are dealing with other than in a logic textbook which tells us nothing other than tautologies that have no content and tell us nothing about any real subject matter. If you want to specify the actual inconsistencies we can have a debate about them? But I don't think they can avoid being about good and bad given your argument in a previous post that a source of the inconsistency was that Spike was supposedly pure evil at some point and then moved away from that to become good. We have to talk then about what pure evil is, not just dismiss views we don't like with claims of inconsistency relative to our own standards without any more thought.

In regards to what some others have been saying, the argument about it not being about Spuffy, etc.. but about Spike being lamer once he fell in love with Buffy. I don't agree that he got lamer at least until end of season 6 with the rape-incident and then after that when he got his soul back. I think from here on the story could have been done better potentially, but I'm only just rewatching season 7 for the first time in about 5 years so I'm going to suspend personal judgment on this point till I see it through again.

But I mean come on, the reason this debate got so heated is precisely in response to the attacks on Bangel in a previous thread a few days before it, about whether Angel is lame, and this thread title was an ideal opportunity for a bit of a come back to that. Some of the Anti-Angel views in that one I found quite shocking and put me off Spuffy a bit, but then I saw the Anti-Spike sentiments in this one and it put me off the motivation behind that view point a bit, whether it be Bangel or something else.

People have strong views in this topic because they identify with a particular type of character and their relationships, and see arguments against them as being a personal attack. It shouldn't color the arguments we make, but it does and has in this thread and the Angel one preceding it.

 

[white avenger]

Of course, I thought he was funny and for awhile he even seemed a bit dangerous. Like he was capable of being a real threat.

But, it soon became clear that he was just talking up a big game. At least when it came to Sunnydale.

What I also hated was the fact that he would have killed Dru for Buffy. Everything that his life was before, everything he valued was wiped out and filled with Buffy. That, more than anything else, led to my extreme dislike of Spike.

None of his loyalty seemed true, or honest. Not to me anyway.

I'm not sure that you could really dismiss Spike as just "talking up a big game" when he almost killed Buffy the first time that they ever fought, and he was, to the best of my knowledge, the only opponent she ever fought who she never actually beat. The closest that she ever came was when she pulled the Ring of Amara off of his finger and he nearly burned in the sunlight.

Someone once said that "it ain't idle bragging if you can deliver the goods." Say whatever you want to about Spike's personality, you don't have to like the guy, but, whether or not you like the fact, Spike always delivered the goods. If he weren't a more than capable fighter, he wouldn't have been able to defeat two Slayers and learn how to hold his own against Illyria, a being far more powerful than any Slayer. And lest we forget, he managed to beat Angel (probably because Angel underestimated him the same way that Buffy did in "School Hard.")

Spike was most definitely more than just a "bit dangerous."

 

[StarSlayer]

Angelus being Angelus would never fall for Buffy. It just wouldn't happen. He was with Darla for over a hundred years and still he never cared for her that deeply. The only person that moved Angelus, was well, Angelus. He loved his artistry, and the pain he inflicted.

As well as that, Buffy being Buffy would never fall for Angelus. She may be attracted to him (the girl has eyes!), maybe intrigued or fascinated by him, but she would never feel love for him.

For Buffy and Angelus to ever happen they would have to turned into different characters. He would have to be less evil and Buffy would have to be more morally grey.

Or to be more blunt, Angelus would have to have a chip put in his head and have a lobotomy and Buffy would have to be clinically depressed. 😛

Neither of them, fully conscious and of right mind, would feel for the other. If they did, then they wouldn't be the characters they are.

I'm going to play devil's advocate now. 🙂 Forget the story of how Spike fell in love with Buffy. Forget the chip, s6, s7, everything. Let's even say Spike's not in the picture, which some would be thrilled about, lol.

Angelus was obsessed with Buffy. He wanted to hurt her in the worst possible ways, whether it was getting to her own heart or emotionally hurting her through her friends. It was his art and what he did best. However, Angelus knew what love felt like. In "I Only Have Eyes For You," he felt it. But, he sees love as a sign of weakness because it relates to humanity, and he considers himself above all that. So, it could be said that he avoids love.

Now, let's say overtime Angelus started to have feelings for Buffy. He couldn't avoid love any longer. Out of his obsession, feelings emerged. Does that change things? Definitely. Does it completely change his character? Yes and no.

Yes, in that his character has somewhere to go, something to explore. How will he deal with these feelings? Will he avoid them like he did in the past or will something different happen this time around? No, in that he's still Angelus, which is what makes his journey that much more interesting because things have already been established regarding who he is, what he thinks, and what he does in similar situations. So, it would be interesting (at least for me) to see where this character goes next based on what we already know about him.

My point in all this is that anything is possible not only in the Buffyverse, but in any fictional story, and character development is not automatically destroyed as a result (unless the writing is extremely horrible, which I don't think it ultimately was throughout the series). Just because a choice is made for a character, such as falling in love with someone, doesn't necessarily mean all the character development that was previously established is thrown out the window. If anything, it's used as like a starting point from where the character goes next. This not only happens with Spike, but with every single character throughout the series. Some people may not like where the characters go, and that's fine. But, I just think it's very extreme to say that Spike falling in love with Buffy destroyed who he was and who we had come to know because falling in love with Buffy actually made me understand Spike more. I learned more about his character through this storyline, which still fit with the Spike I was introduced to in s2, and I loved every second of it. 🙂

 

[Icarium]

When did I say season 6 invented it?

Here:

In season 6 they were being destroyed by their own internal problems, in earlier seasons the problems were either in or projected onto other people who became the big bad that they needed to destroy

It explored the concept in more depth and originality based on the way the season ended, i.e. a battle with internal demons being fought not a battle with an external demon, the structure of it built up to this conclusion rather than the conclusion of defeating a big bad e.g. Master, Angelus, Mayor, Adam, Glory, First Evil and Caleb, that covers all the other series and makes it original relative to them, it doesn't make it an invention but thats your term not mine.

I seem to recall that there was a Big Bad in S6, named Willow? Really, whatever weak claims to originality S6 has, they aren't in the nature of the Big Bad, IMO.

When did these things happen, and what have they got to do with Whether it was right for them to have Spike fall in love with Buffy. How random and off-topic do you want to get?

They didn't happen obviously, I was just making up hypothetical examples to illustrate my point.

 

[Moscow Watcher]

Now, let's say overtime Angelus started to have feelings for Buffy. He couldn't avoid love any longer. Out of his obsession, feelings emerged. Does that change things? Definitely. Does it completely change his character? Yes and no.

Now when you say it, I've remembered that back in 1999 David Boreanaz and Charisma Carpenter had clauses in their AtS contracts -- if the show gets closed they could return to BtVS. And I wouldn't be surprised if some day Joss would reveal that Spike's story was originally intended for Angel (us).

It would've been the ultimate irony, Spike getting Angel's property.😛

 

[Kean]

I'm going to play devil's advocate now. 🙂 Forget the story of how Spike fell in love with Buffy. Forget the chip, s6, s7, everything. Let's even say Spike's not in the picture, which some would be thrilled about, lol.

Angelus was obsessed with Buffy. He wanted to hurt her in the worst possible ways, whether it was getting to her own heart or emotionally hurting her through her friends. It was his art and what he did best. However, Angelus knew what love felt like. In "I Only Have Eyes For You," he felt it. But, he sees love as a sign of weakness because it relates to humanity, and he considers himself above all that. So, it could be said that he avoids love.

Now, let's say overtime Angelus started to have feelings for Buffy. He couldn't avoid love any longer. Out of his obsession, feelings emerged. Does that change things? Definitely. Does it completely change his character? Yes and no.

My very favourite fic series works off of this premise. The reason it works in the fic is because a) the writer is amazing and b) whilst she keeps the it all Sunnydale and everything she alters the characters enough that it is believable that they would feel this way and do these things.

The Angelus we got in BTVS and ATS is not the Angelus of this series and the Buffy is very different too.

The reason it works for me is because it SO different. As much as I enjoy it in fic, I know it never would have happened in canon.

I'll PM you the link if you want. 🙂

My point in all this is that anything is possible not only in the Buffyverse, but in any fictional story, and character development is not automatically destroyed as a result (unless the writing is extremely horrible, which I don't think it ultimately was throughout the series). Just because a choice is made for a character, such as falling in love with someone, doesn't necessarily mean all the character development that was previously established is thrown out the window. If anything, it's used as like a starting point from where the character goes next. This not only happens with Spike, but with every single character throughout the series. Some people may not like where the characters go, and that's fine. But, I just think it's very extreme to say that Spike falling in love with Buffy destroyed who he was and who we had come to know because falling in love with Buffy actually made me understand Spike more. I learned more about his character through this storyline and I loved every second of it. 🙂

People like what they like. Maybe it is extreme to say that about Spike, but I don't think anyone who has this opinion has it just to be controversial. It's just how they feel. They liked him pre-Buffy. I can't really fault anyone for that. No more can I fault anyone for not liking Angel. I may not understand it, it may be the complete opposite experience I had with the character, but it is what it is.

 

[StarSlayer]

The reason it works for me is because it SO different. As much as I enjoy it in fic, I know it never would have happened in canon.

I'll PM you the link if you want. 🙂

If done right, I think it could work in canon. 🙂 Like I said, anything's possible. 😉 And I'm always up for a good fanfic, so that'd be great if you can send me the link. 🙂

People like what they like. Maybe it is extreme to say that about Spike, but I don't think anyone who has this opinion has it just to be controversial. It's just how they feel. They liked him pre-Buffy. I can't really fault anyone for that. No more can I fault anyone for not liking Angel. I may not understand it, it may be the complete opposite experience I had with the character, but it is what it is.

I completely agree. And at the end of the day, you can't force people to feel something different. You can only try to explain your own thoughts and own feelings as to why you see it differently. 🙂 (Although, it is my mission in life to show non-believers Buffy was in love Spike, lol 😉 ) Aren't discussions grand, lol? 😀

 

[Kean]

If done right, I think it could work in canon. 🙂 Like I said, anything's possible. 😉 And I'm always up for a good fanfic, so that'd be great if you can send me the link. 🙂

I'll send it over now 🙂

(Although, it is my mission in life to show non-believers Buffy was in love Spike, lol 😉 ) Aren't discussions grand, lol? 😀

Good luck with that 😉 😛

---------- Post added at 11:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:29 PM ----------

mayfever agrees: Courting Sin is your favourite fic? Who would have thought...

No, while I do love Leni's verse, I was actually talking about Jo's Nature of the Beast. It's my favourite series, my favourite fic will always be Yahtzee's Phoenix Burning. You need to read Jo's verse it if you haven't. 🙂

No more off topic posts, I swear. *runs out*

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Just from my own stance, I have never said or claimed to have viewed Spike as a "___" (I won't use that word you used Joan. I hate it. 🙂 ).

What I do find him, is boring and unauthentic. And that's why I dislike his falling for Buffy. To me it stripped him of some of his previously most compelling personality traits. On top of that, it led to some of my most hated episodes and seasons.

It's not that I don't think him worthy of evolution, I just am loathe to the evolution he did get. Just as I am Willow's.

Also, I think there is no comparison to how Angel fell for Buffy, and how the audience experienced that, and how Spike did. We were introduced to Angel as him being Buffy's love interest. Everything we knew about him was tied to her. That wasn't the case with Spike. He had a whole life and world that had nothing to do with her.

I imagine if we had met Angelus first and he ended up falling for Buffy you would hear very similar complaints from fans.

Kean, firstly, I respect and admire your opinion, and see what you are saying. But I'm curious about what you thought were Spike's compelling character traits.

EDIT: Disregard this question!

I agree that there is no comparison to how Angel and Spike fell for Buffy. I was merely repeating what I've heard from others.

 

[Kean]

Kean, firstly, I respect and admire your opinion, and see what you are saying. But I'm curious about what you thought were Spike's compelling character traits.

EDIT: Disregard this question!

I was going to disregard the question but I re-read my previous answer and I am not entirely happy with it.

OK, I'm going to try and answer this based on I remember viewing Spike way back when.

Pre-S4 Spike was an individual. He had character. One that was completely distinct from everything else we had seen on the show. Simply put, he was refreshing. And not just because he was sarcastic or witty but because he had completely embraced who he was and he just lived it. He had the swagger of someone who knew exactly what his place was in the world. Not only that, but he owned it. That alone was something we had never seen in any of the characters, vampire or human.

Once he was chipped that was all stripped away. Piece by piece, he was degraded as a vampire and turned from something that we knew to be a threat into a joke. Over a hundred years with Dru was reduced to rubble by infatuation of Buffy. He was shown as "beneath her". He's reduced to petty games with Giles and Xander. The Spike of S2, the Spike of the Boxer Rebellion, the Spike who danced with Nicki Wood, was staked. The Spike I enjoyed, the Spike I was excited about was gone. In place was something altogether lesser. Something pathetic.

I just think there was already a rich character there, I don't understand why that had to be taken away. I understand even less why we got the replacement we did.

So that's what I liked, and honestly missed. Buffy didn't need another best friend or confidante, that's what the Scoobies were for. She didn't need another vampire, forbidden love. And the verse didn't need to retell the vampire changes for love storyline. It had already done that.

Spike, being the character we were initially introduced to, already possessed oceans of potential as a character. I just don't think it was necessary (or even worked) when he was remade in the image of everything Buffy would (apparently) need. He shouldn't have been reduced to just serving at the altar of Buffy.

I know there are people who loved this, but I just can't stand it.