Question Do you Think Lindsay deserved to die?

[LadyLavinia]

If evil people, rapists, murderers, don't get killed, that means that so many lives will be destroyed. For example, a child rapist will destroy loves of many chkldren, who might in turn grow up to become child rapists as well. It's a evil circle that needs to be stopped.

What are you? Dexter? I don't care if your victims are potential murderers, rapists, etc. Anyone who calls himself killing another, because that person might be a future threat is still a murderer in my eyes. He or she is no better than the people who are judged evil.

All you're doing is continuing the so-called "evil circle" by committing acts of evil, yourself.


And that is exactly what Angel and Lorne became when they killed Lindsay . . . a pair of cold-blooded murderers.

 

[Icarium]

I don't believe Angel had the right to kill Lindsey.

There wasn't really anybody else available to make that decision. It's not as if Angel could give Lindsay to the police. In real life I am against capital punishment, but with the likes of Lindsay it's either kill them or let them kill more people, so I think the correct decision is to kill them. Lindsay had plenty of chances to reform, way more than he deserved.

Angel's real failure lies in not killing Darla, Drusila, Harmony, etc, when he had the chance. So hge looks like quite the hypocrite when he finally decides to kill Lindsay but maybe he learned his lesson...

 

[Skytteflickan88]

What are you? Dexter? I don't care if your victims are potential murderers, rapists, etc. Anyone who calls himself killing another, because that person might be a future threat is still a murderer in my eyes. He or she is no better than the people who are judged evil.

All you're doing is continuing the so-called "evil circle" by committing acts of evil, yourself.


And that is exactly what Angel and Lorne became when they killed Lindsay . . . a pair of cold-blooded murderers.

Getting a bit personal now, aren't you? No need to get carried away, comparing me to a phsycopath, or whatever the proper term for a person like Dexter is, and I won't call you a bad person for not stopping child rapists any way you can.

I know that a murderer is a murderer no matter who she kills, unless it's done in selfdefence. Doesn't necassarily make it wrong in my book, if it stops other people being hurt.

And I can't see how one continues the circle of evil by stopping them evil people from hurting others, and in turn making them bad people. By killing child rapists, you make sure they can't hurt again. Imprisonment is the ideal, but that's not always an option. Killing one person can be the lesser evil.

If Angel and Lorne hadn't killed Lindsey, Lindsey would have gotten other people hurt or killed. Then those victims' blood would have been on their hands, and they would be guilty of the crimes, in their own way. By not killing one, you're guilty of helping killing many others.

I don't expect people to take the law into their own hands in a normal situation, where you can call the cops or aren't 100 per cent certain the person is guilty, or if you think you can't stomack taking a life, but in a case like this, with people who have killed monsters for years, when a bullet could take care of a man they knew to be evil, it would be wrong not to do something.

I don't see it Lindsey's murder any different than from when Angel dusted vampires. Lindsey was a monster, and he needed to be put down. I don't care if he had a soul, and wasn't exactly Angelus-material. He was close enough.

---------- Post added at 08:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:07 PM ----------

The question here becomes though - who has the right to judge that? Does Angel have the right to judge Lindsey so harshly?

Does anyone have the right to judge what another does or does not deserve?

But it's not about who has the right to kill or not, it's about someone standing up and saying "Hey you, I won't let you hurt anyone else". It's not a God given right, or even one of logic; it's about ending the pain, by getting rid of the cause of the pain.

Obviously this is a very complicated matter and I don't think that putting a label on someone such as 'child rapist' or 'murderer' helps the discussion along. Because then we're entering another precarious area of judgement - can you without the question of a doubt prove these labels to be correct? And if they are - does that automatically give you the right to condemn that person to oblivion? Wouldn't e.g. imprisonment be a better solution? Don't even people with these labels deserve the opportunity to better themselves? And if they don't - do you when you create a mistake, even if at a much smaller scale?

The thing is, once a person commits a too horrible a crime, specially if they commit them several times, they lose their chance for redemption, because it's too risky. It's not like someone getting drunk and driving, that's a act of stupidity. But killing someone? That's too far (except in special cirumstances of course). Prison if of course a number 1 option, if you can manage to get someone convicted. But let's say someone rapes a child; send them to prison for life. Unless you can actually prove they can deal with their urges, for example forcing them to take chemical castration, or whatever it's called.

 

[BuffyElevated]

Let's keep this civil, people! Please don't resort to personally attacking someone else's views.

 

[white avenger]

If I remember corrctly, Lorne killed Lindsey because, "sooner or later," he would slip back into his old ways. That being the case, Lindsey wasn't being killed for any past crimes, but rather for what he might do in the future, IF HE MANAGED TO SURVIVE THE COMING BATTLE, something that Angel had said was fairly unlikely for any of thoe concerned. Therefore, Angel had his fighting force reduced by 25% at a time when he really couldn't afford it, because of something that Lindsey hadn't even done yet. No wonder he thought that none of his people were gonna survive the battle.

 

[Angelus Domini]

Does anyone have the right to judge?

That's the same thing the Scooby gang asked Buffy. Why does it has to be Buffy who decides who lives or dies? Or who to hunt and who not to? Why does she shrug off Spike, Anya, Faith, and Willow's past kill/s but not those newly turned vampires that just came fresh off the graveyard and haven't even killed anyone yet? Or those demons that has no logical thinking, and only hunt, not as an act of evil, but as an act of eating, just like wild animals like Tigers and Bears?

Because.... She's the Slayer.

Same thing with Angel, as the Vampire with a soul of the Sanshu Prophecy.

They both somehow have the authority, mystically given or not, to decide, whether their decisions are right or wrong, for the greater good, for the fight against evil. People like that seem to have privileges.

You need to damage an egg to make an omelet, be it a tiny hole, or a huge crack. This was Angel's crack on the egg, just as Buffy made hers.

Besides, if someone like Angel was somehow corrupted (by defending evil clients and somewhat doing the Senior Partner's will) by W&H... how much more someone like Lindsey, who chose to be evil twice when he could have just walked away and be good? He could have retired from W&H (without being killed since it was an option given to him by Holland Manners)... nope... choose to be promoted. Go home to his town and live with Eve, settle down, though they would need to have those tattoos everywhere and on them... nope... had to go back and kill Angel.

 

[Lyri]

@ Angelus Domini...So that means he deserves to die?

I'm sorry, as much as I love Buffy and Angel, as characters, I don't think they have the right to choose who should live and who should die based on what they MIGHT do in the future. Even though I HATE that scene in 'Empty Places' with all my soul, Anya was right when she said that Buffy wasn't better than any of them just because she has her powers...she's just lucky.

Angel knew, when he asked Lorne to do this, that he was going to kill Drogyn (Or had he already killed him? It's been a while), so, by his own thinking, he should have asked Lorne to kill him, too, because he KNEW he was on his way to/had already killed an innocent person. Yes, it was for 'the greater good', but did that really help anything when they all ended up in the alley anyway, with Gunn spilling blood all over the floor and one fighter down?

I don't think anyone in that verse has the right to choose who should be killed because of what they COULD be capable of. You say that Lindsey has done a lot of stuff in the past that dictates what he could do in the future - but what about Faith? She chose to side with the Mayor against Buffy, and she was in full control of her faculties and not under the influence of grief, she had her soul, she was raised some what normally, and she wasn't a social outcast who did what she did for attention. She atoned, yes, but what if choosing to fight with Angel was Lindsey's turning point? His own chance at redemption? Angel took that choice away from him when he decided to have him killed and now we'll never know.

Also, another reason I hate that scene was because of what it did to Lorne. Angel KNEW how against violence Lorne was, and yet he asked him to do something like this anyway. It destroyed him completely and it took him a long time to recover from it, and I know that Andy Hallett, RIP, HATED shooting that scene.

 

[Angelus Domini]

@ Angelus Domini...So that means he deserves to die?

I'm sorry, as much as I love Buffy and Angel, as characters, I don't think they have the right to choose who should live and who should die based on what they MIGHT do in the future. Even though I HATE that scene in 'Empty Places' with all my soul, Anya was right when she said that Buffy wasn't better than any of them just because she has her powers...she's just lucky.

Angel knew, when he asked Lorne to do this, that he was going to kill Drogyn (Or had he already killed him? It's been a while), so, by his own thinking, he should have asked Lorne to kill him, too, because he KNEW he was on his way to/had already killed an innocent person. Yes, it was for 'the greater good', but did that really help anything when they all ended up in the alley anyway, with Gunn spilling blood all over the floor and one fighter down?

I don't think anyone in that verse has the right to choose who should be killed because of what they COULD be capable of. You say that Lindsey has done a lot of stuff in the past that dictates what he could do in the future - but what about Faith? She chose to side with the Mayor against Buffy, and she was in full control of her faculties and not under the influence of grief, she had her soul, she was raised some what normally, and she wasn't a social outcast who did what she did for attention. She atoned, yes, but what if choosing to fight with Angel was Lindsey's turning point? His own chance at redemption? Angel took that choice away from him when he decided to have him killed and now we'll never know.

Also, another reason I hate that scene was because of what it did to Lorne. Angel KNEW how against violence Lorne was, and yet he asked him to do something like this anyway. It destroyed him completely and it took him a long time to recover from it, and I know that Andy Hallett, RIP, HATED shooting that scene.

No, I don't think he deserved to die, not because he's evil or good but based on Angel needed all the help he could get. Which of course, led me to wonder why he didn't ask help from Groosalugg, Gwen Raiden, or even Kate Lockley to join the fight. Groo is a hero and will help. Gwen can be paid if needed. Kate can be called, whether she comes or not. If I were Angel, I wouldn't let Lorne kill him because I'd need as much men as I can get in that alley. I'll even let Gunn contact his old gang to join in. Even call LAPD of a bomb threat in the alley so that they'll come. That's not my point.

My point is, because he's "the Vampire" of the Sanshu Prophecy, he is entitled to make decisions, good or bad, without anyone questioning it, just like Buffy has that entitlement because she's the Slayer.

I think Angel told Lorne, after he killed Drogyn. Angel didn't know he needed to kill Drogyn. He didn't know he needed to do that. He only intended Drogyn to make everyone think that he's evil because Drogyn is so pure and doesn't lie. He was even surprised when they said Illyria was babysitting Drogyn. He didn't know Drogyn would be captured. Although... Lindsey did say that The Circle wouldn't believe Angel was evil until he killed one of his "Lieutenants" but I think this may be referring to Fred, not Drogyn. How would Lindsey know that Drogyn would be captured? Let alone, why Drogyn would be captured, which was for the initiation rights/ritual into the Blackthorn, which he wouldn't know.

Yes, Angel killed a lot of people. Spike too. Anya may have indirectly. Willow and Faith, just 1. Yet Buffy shrugs it off. She decides when and what, who and how, because she's the Slayer. Just like how Angel is the vampire in the Sanshu. They have special privileges, though not legal.

 

[Lyri]

My point is, because he's "the Vampire" of the Sanshu Prophecy, he is entitled to make decisions, good or bad, without anyone questioning it, just like Buffy has that entitlement because she's the Slayer.


Yes, Angel killed a lot of people. Spike too. Anya may have indirectly. Willow and Faith, just 1. Yet Buffy shrugs it off. She decides when and what, who and how, because she's the Slayer. Just like how Angel is the vampire in the Sanshu. They have special privileges, though not legal.

No, they don't have that right. They may have certain skills that we don't, and they put their lives on the line to keep the world safe, but that still doesn't give them the right to dictate whether or not someone should be killed. Angel was all about atonement and redemption, yet he took that away from Lindsey with a second thought. That's hardly fair.

Also, Angel signed away the Shanshu. I haven't read the Angel comics, so I don't know what's happened there, but at the time of NFA, he'd signed away his 'claim' to the Shanshu, so that argument doesn't hold water for me.

 

[prophecygrrl]

Yes, Angel killed a lot of people. Spike too. Anya may have indirectly. Willow and Faith, just 1. Yet Buffy shrugs it off. She decides when and what, who and how, because she's the Slayer. Just like how Angel is the vampire in the Sanshu. They have special privileges, though not legal.

Buffy doesn't shrug off killing people though. Ever. She took her place as a leader because she had to, and we saw in Season 7 just how much she struggled with having that power. I very strongly disagree with the idea that she just shrugged off other people's lives.

 

[Angelus Domini]

No, they don't have that right. They may have certain skills that we don't, and they put their lives on the line to keep the world safe, but that still doesn't give them the right to dictate whether or not someone should be killed. Angel was all about atonement and redemption, yet he took that away from Lindsey with a second thought. That's hardly fair.

Also, Angel signed away the Shanshu. I haven't read the Angel comics, so I don't know what's happened there, but at the time of NFA, he'd signed away his 'claim' to the Shanshu, so that argument doesn't hold water for me.

Lindsey was given a chance twice. That's more than enough. It's not one of those addict rehabilitation situations wherein the addict slips up and does drugs, even just a little amount. It's more like, a choice on a game show like Deal or No Deal. When you make the wrong choice, you loose the money. If you made the right one, you get the jackpot.

Angel only did that to convince the Circle. It's not that he didn't care about the prophecy. He had faith/hope about the prophecy ever since "The Cautionary tale of Numero Cinco". Besides, it happened on the same day. Even if it he were no longer "the vampire" of the Sanshu, it was just a few hours.

Besides, in the comic, the Sanshu was signed off bu Angel but it was not yet "Filed" as an official document because W&H had an Earthquake and it probably got lost. Not to mention, everyone in the Blackthorn that could have "filed" it the next day were dead on the same night.

Buffy doesn't shrug off killing people though. Ever. She took her place as a leader because she had to, and we saw in Season 7 just how much she struggled with having that power. I very strongly disagree with the idea that she just shrugged off other people's lives.

I don't mean that she shrugs off killing people. I just mean she seems to shrug off:

Angel... too many to mention, multiple murders, torture, abduction, trespassing, destruction of property, rape(?).

Spike... almost the same as Angel, too many to mention.

Faith killing the human assistant of the mayor, was an escaped convict (fugitive), numerous counts of assault in LA and who knows where else, attacking police officers, theft, destruction of property, and illegal possession of weapons.

Willow for one murder, attempted murders, breaking out two prisoners, illegal possession of a fire arm, harboring of a fugitive (Faith), destruction of property, assaulting Police officers.

Xander for theft from an army depot and disturbing holy Indian grounds, illegal possession of military arms.

Giles for murder of Ben and abduction of a drugged minor (Buffy), and those past things he did as "Ripper".

Andrew, theft of a diamond. Accomplice of Warren's girlfriend's abduction, attempted rape, and death, framing Buffy.

Anya, illegal alien (Denmark, Norway, or Swedish citizenship), does not have a working permit to work for The Magic Box, since she's hasn't and can't file for citizenship or even permanent residence. None of her murders, indirect or not, are covered by human law because she was a Vengeance demon.

LOL! I sound like a freaking lawyer from Wolfram & Hart.

But yeah, if she did the "right" thing on our standards, she would have led them all to jail. But she decided not to. The world was a better place because of her decisions.

 

[WakingNightmare]

The difference is, Buffy doesn't think she has the right too do those thing because she's the Slayer, she does them because she is a good and compassionate person with an outstanding ability to forgive. She is willing to offer a second chance if she feels someone will actually use it. Being the Slayer has nothing to do with it.

Angel has no God given rights to judge people whatsoever, I think. Yes, Lindsey was a threat but we've seen before that he's not completely heartless and even if that wasn't good enough for Angel (which is understandable) he's got enough brains to come up with an alternative method to stopping Lindsey from hurting people. It was cruel and unnecessary, in my opinion.

And having Lorne do the deed was just low. If he wanted Lindsey dead, he should've had the nerve to do it himself.

 

[Icarium]

Because.... She's the Slayer.

Same thing with Angel, as the Vampire with a soul of the Sanshu Prophecy.

They both somehow have the authority, mystically given or not, to decide, whether their decisions are right or wrong, for the greater good, for the fight against evil. People like that seem to have privileges.

No, they don't. At least not any more than any other person who knows about the crimes of Lindsay, Faith, Anya, etc. I don't think it's okay for Lindsay to be executed but only if Angel orders it, I think it's okay because that is the better alternative to letting him kill more people, and any random vigilante would have had the right to do it.

Xander for theft from an army depot and disturbing holy Indian grounds,

Huh? If you mean his actions in Pangs they were very much legal, and even happened in front of a crowd of witnesses. 🙂

 

[Taake]

Lindsey was given a chance twice. That's more than enough.

For me again this is putting things in too much of a black and white area which is easy to do in fiction or with someone who's distant from you. But if one person is judged this harshly then everyone has to be judged this harshly... and that's where we all start to pay (or in a fictional universe where all characters have to start paying i.e. anyone who's been given two chances is out... under this logic this means a lot of our characters would have to be killed off)

But yeah, if she did the "right" thing on our standards, she would have led them all to jail. But she decided not to. The world was a better place because of her decisions.

Which technically only supports the theory that Angel was wrong in killing Lindsey even more. Because forgiving and allowing redemption to all those other characters lead to the world being a better place...

Now even if I believe that Lindsey would've gone back to his evil ways there's no guarantee in that. Keeping him around could've also made the world a better place...

 

[Angelus Domini]

For me again this is putting things in too much of a black and white area which is easy to do in fiction or with someone who's distant from you. But if one person is judged this harshly then everyone has to be judged this harshly... and that's where we all start to pay (or in a fictional universe where all characters have to start paying i.e. anyone who's been given two chances is out... under this logic this means a lot of our characters would have to be killed off)

Who else were given a chance twice? No, not sinned twice, or killed 2 people twice, or done something wrong twice. I mean, given a chance to be good, from evil, handed to him twice. Lindsey never fought for his seconds chances. They were given to him. First offered by Holland Manners. Second by Angel, indirectly.

Which technically only supports the theory that Angel was wrong in killing Lindsey even more. Because forgiving and allowing redemption to all those other characters lead to the world being a better place...

Now even if I believe that Lindsey would've gone back to his evil ways there's no guarantee in that. Keeping him around could've also made the world a better place...

You have to see it from Angel's perspective:

I, along with my friends will most probably die tonight. If Lindsey survives the Sahrvin clan assassination, who will be there to stop him once he becomes corrupted as LA W&H's CEO? Buffy and the Scoobies no longer trust me. Groo doesn't have the wits to pull it off. Gwen won't do squat without getting some chocolate bar from Gunn. Kate is missing in action and can be easily eliminated. Drogyn is dead. Gunn's old gang can be easily eliminated. I don't want Connor in the mix. The Slayer Organization maybe but it's too unsure and I think they're pretty busy and are still regrouping. There's not even a Slayer group dispatch here in LA.

Why Lorne? Everyone else can fight on their own. I can't have Gunn or Wesley tag along with Lindsey so that they could kill him at the end. Has to be Lorne. I can't rely on him to go fight someone alone anyways. What about I send Gwen to kill Lindsey? She's a thief not an assassin.

Angel couldn't have left and waited for Lindsey to turn evil again because he was expecting to die that night. He had to get him killed or else no one will be there to stop him when he's gone, except Buffy and the Scoobies.

 

[Lyri]

Angel knew, at the time when he told, yes, TOLD, Lorne to kill Lindsey that he had signed away the Shanshu, so, in his mind, it was gone, which means he hadn't a leg to stand on if you ask me.

And as for other people getting second chances, how about Willow? She killed someone AND tried ti end the world, yet she was given her shot at redemption.

Faith was given more than one shot to atone for killing Finch, yet she chose to side with the Mayor, told Giles that it was Buffy who killed Finch. She helped Buffy in 'Graduation Day PT2', all be it subconsciously, yet she went completely 180 when she woke up in 'This Year's Girl' and tried to kill Buffy AGAIN. She had fantasies of killing Willow, and yet, she was given her chance to make amends.

Lindsey never killed anyone as far as I can remember. He was a bad guy, yes, choosing to work for W&H, which he walked away from eventually. He came back to get rid of Angel because he blames Angel for the problems he had, which, while ridiculous and self-centered, I can understand why he felt that way. He was doing just fine, working at W&H and living in his morally gray world, until Angel came along and forced him to see that things weren't that easy.

 

[Marisa]

No I don't think he deserved to die I mean yes Lindsey was not the best character he had his flaws one of them being siding with the good guys then five seconds later not but that is okay I love him anyways. Angel thought he deserved to die in his opinion but his opinion is not the final answer. I understand where Angel was coming from but no he did not deserve to die. I am beginning to think Joss killed Lindsey for the shock factor because heck I never saw it coming.

If we are going by Angel logic half the people he knows deserve to die as well. I used to really see where he was coming from like when I was watching I really saw but when you think about it Lindsey didn't need to die. I understand he is a big threat but still.

 

[Lyri]

I am beginning to think Joss killed Lindsey for the shock factor because heck I never saw it coming.

According to Chris Kane, Joss had been trying to kill Lindsey since S2, and Chris always refused to do the episode, so it had to be rewritten and other people were killed instead (Gavin, Lilah, Lindwood among others.) When they found out the show had been cancelled. Chris asked Joss what he was going to do now, and Joss' reply was: 'I'm going to *bleeping* kill you.' As Chris was contracted to the end of the season, he couldn't say no that time.

But both Chris and Andy, RIP, hated shooting that scene, and it still ranks as one of Chris's worst moments on screen.

 

[BuffyElevated]

According to Chris Kane, Joss had been trying to kill Lindsey since S2, and Chris always refused to do the episode, so it had to be rewritten and other people were killed instead (Gavin, Lilah, Lindwood among others.) When they found out the show had been cancelled. Chris asked Joss what he was going to do now, and Joss' reply was: 'I'm going to *bleeping* kill you.' As Chris was contracted to the end of the season, he couldn't say no that time.

But both Chris and Andy, RIP, hated shooting that scene, and it still ranks as one of Chris's worst moments on screen.

Awww.... That's so crappy. 🙁

I always really, really hated that it was Lorne who did the deed. If Angel wanted Lindsey killed, he should have been the one to do it and not shirk it off on someone else.

 

[Angelus Domini]

Angel knew, at the time when he told, yes, TOLD, Lorne to kill Lindsey that he had signed away the Shanshu, so, in his mind, it was gone, which means he hadn't a leg to stand on if you ask me.

And as for other people getting second chances, how about Willow? She killed someone AND tried ti end the world, yet she was given her shot at redemption.

Faith was given more than one shot to atone for killing Finch, yet she chose to side with the Mayor, told Giles that it was Buffy who killed Finch. She helped Buffy in 'Graduation Day PT2', all be it subconsciously, yet she went completely 180 when she woke up in 'This Year's Girl' and tried to kill Buffy AGAIN. She had fantasies of killing Willow, and yet, she was given her chance to make amends.

Lindsey never killed anyone as far as I can remember. He was a bad guy, yes, choosing to work for W&H, which he walked away from eventually. He came back to get rid of Angel because he blames Angel for the problems he had, which, while ridiculous and self-centered, I can understand why he felt that way. He was doing just fine, working at W&H and living in his morally gray world, until Angel came along and forced him to see that things weren't that easy.

That makes it more noble of Angel. He has nothing to gain from the Sanshu since he believed he signed it off. However, even if he was no longer "the vamp" of Sanshu, it was just a few hours until he told Lorne.

Willow was never given a second chance. She turned back to good without anyone giving her an option. Faith chose evil with the Mayor but wasn't given an option to be good again either. It needed to be forced on her by Buffy and Angel. Lindsey's were just handed to him, twice.

Awww.... That's so crappy. 🙁

I always really, really hated that it was Lorne who did the deed. If Angel wanted Lindsey killed, he should have been the one to do it and not shirk it off on someone else.

It needed to be Lorne. He was the only one who couldn't fight by himself. Angel couldn't send someone like Gunn or Wesley just to kill Lindsey because those 2 got their own targets. Angel was also busy fighting Marcus. He was planning on getting Marcus.