Spoiler! Doctor Who 2024-25

[nightshade]

This is to discuss the new episodes from the current 2024 series only.

There may be spoilers if you are not up to date on the aired episodes.

 

[Cohen]

I loved Rogue! I know a Doctor romance isn’t everyone’s Cuppa tea, but I thought it was sweet that the Doctor and Rogue shared similar experiences related to loss of companions. I wondered if Rogue was going to sacrifice Ruby at the end, but the noble switcheroo was cute.

I also liked that Ruby comforted the Doctor at the end, and was there for him like a true best friend. Even though we’ve only seen them through 7 adventures so far, they could have been going on more in between adventures, and it seems that they really have bonded together.

I wasn’t quite sold on the “cosplay” of it all, though. That was the weakest part of the episode for me.

 

[Bop]

I like that The Doctor was chasing Rogue and trying to get him to open up but then Rogue flips the script entirely by proposing to The Doctor, making The Doctor run out of the room. They planned to cause a scene and leave the room so the chuldur would follow them but it’s clear through Groff and Ncuti’s performance that the feelings around the proposal were genuine for Rogue and The Doctor. The whole story between them was romantic, I love their dynamic.

I didn’t like any of the other romances for The Doctor – not a fan of Ten/Rose, River/The Doctor, or Thirteen/Yaz. But I do like Rogue/The Doctor. Maybe it just works so well because Ncuti’s doctor is by far the most emotional and romantic doctor, after this episode I’d even have to say he’s more romantic and emotional than Tennant’s doctor.

 

[Cohen]

Doctor Who Boss Promises Answers This Week About Mystery Woman — What's Your Final Theory? - TVLine

'Doctor Who' will solve a Season 14 mystery -- who's the reappearing mystery woman? -- ahead of finale, says Russell T Davies.

tvline.com

So who do we think Susan Twist is? What’s the “twist”?

 

[Bop]

Doctor Who Boss Promises Answers This Week About Mystery Woman — What's Your Final Theory? - TVLine

'Doctor Who' will solve a Season 14 mystery -- who's the reappearing mystery woman? -- ahead of finale, says Russell T Davies.

tvline.com

So who do we think Susan Twist is? What’s the “twist”?

My only guess for the finale is that Ruby is The Trickster's child.

 

[Bop]

Well at least they name dropped The Trickster, there's always part 2 😄

It's cool they brought Gabriel Woolf back, he also voiced The Beast from The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit in season 2, he has a memorable voice.

 

[Cohen]

I liked this episode. It reminded me of some of the past two-parter finales. All the stakes have been raised, and it looks like the doctor is going to falter. But he will inevitably end of getting out of it!

I’m so curious as to who Ruby’s mother is. And who the neighbor is! There are so many things left to resolve!

 

[Bop]

I think this finale was awfully written, the only reveal that made sense was Sutekh leaving Susan Twists everywhere The Doctor landed so that when the time came they could spread the death sand everywhere. But the reveal of Ruby's mother being ordinary just felt really patronising, especially because RTD refused to answer any of the questions he set up like Ruby making things snow, or why this fifteen year old was cloaked and ominously pointed at a sign 'to name Ruby' even though nobody was there to see her do it so it actually must have been the firefighters or social worker who named Ruby after the road she was left on. It felt like RTD was making fun of fans who like to put clues together and make theories and that's arrogant and rude. Then we meet Ruby's mother and she doesn't feel like a real person who traumatically gave up her child, even Cherry and Carla don't feel that real so when Ruby wants to stay with them it didn't click.
Millie and especially Ncuti gave an honest performance to bad dialogue.

It won't take away from how much I love 73 Yards, Dot and Bubble, and Rogue and Ncuti's doctor but the season's overall storyline was ruined.

 

[GreyWalker1958]

Between the explicit ref to the first Toymaker encounter and now only Pyramids of Mars, I need for RTD to stop kissing Bob Iger's Dalek Bumps and just stick to audio clips like in Utopia when it came to the Master. The show's brand synergy disconnect since his stale bread bestie (i.e. Chibnall) declared war on spin off media (and the Beeb carelessly leaving the prose side be comatose per novelizations) was horrible enough, why continue the trend and go down the same road to hell Tim Zahn did when it came to his and Thrawn's place in Star Wars history *. And FOR CRUK SAKE STOP MENTIONING SUSAN (while taking the piss at Big Finish's expense!!). Show CAF before she leaves us eventually or don't!!! Goddammit!!!!


Hate to be that guy but Im just gonna say about RTD: You can hide behind your orientation and pride but at the end of the day, you're still no more the out of touch old white man like the rest. Turn in your TARDIS key, please.


*much as some can argue that the books before the Disney annexation aren't canon to George Lucas, the man took the money so therefore they WERE (& forfeit his right to declare they weren't; he had that opportunity when the very first comic and Splinter of the Mind's Eye nearly 50 yrs ago to do so) before he kissed the aforementioned Dalek Bumps.

 

[Cohen]

I thought it was a typical RTD finale—build up this seemingly impossible scenario and then solve it with a ridiculous plot twist. But I really enjoyed the run. Definitely overlooking a lot of plot holes. I wonder who will be in the Christmas special, or how Ruby gets back with the doctor?

 

[Bop]

I thought it was a typical RTD finale—build up this seemingly impossible scenario and then solve it with a ridiculous plot twist. But I really enjoyed the run. Definitely overlooking a lot of plot holes. I wonder who will be in the Christmas special, or how Ruby gets back with the doctor?

I love all of RTD's other finales, even when The Doctor was brought back to full strength by people's belief in him across the world in the season 3 finale it made some type of sense because it was the belief amplified through the telepathic archangel network, which had been used by The Master in that finale. So it was cheesy but followed some kind of logic, they didn't expect us to buy that it was belief alone that cured The Doctor.

I liked the goodbye scene between Ruby and The Doctor, especially when Ruby says "I love you" as she's leaving and The Doctor doesn't say it back. It feels like there's some conflict between them.

Nicola Coughlan is in the Christmas special.

 

[Cohen]

Doctor Who Boss: Yes, That Star Wars Film Inspired Finale’s Ruby Twist, But There Are ‘More Revelations to Come’

'Doctor Who' showrunner Russell T Davies confirms Star Wars 'The Last Jedi' inspired finale twist, says Ruby is 'absolutely' in Season 2

tvline.com

Okay… so this article says there’s still more to Ruby than the finale lets on. Her mother is an ordinary girl. But do we know anything about the father? Could we be going about this all wrong? Is the ominous hooded figure in 2004 a red herring, and maybe it’s the father that makes her special? We still haven’t met the father.

And so all of Ruby’s family that we’ve met so far are women. Which I also don’t think is coincidence.

Is the father ordinary too? Or are we being set up for another bait and switch?

 

[thetopher]

Who watches 'The Last Jedi' and goes 'ooh, that was a well-received subversion of expectations, I'll nick that'.

Sorry, but with a lot of this latest series being built on a teasing mystery to get people invested in Ruby...and then the finale being 'lol, she's normal, isn't that a beautiful story?' is so breathtakingly cynical & manipulative I'm starting to retro-actively wonder if RTD was ever a good writer.

Maybe I have to re-watched the Eccleston and Tennant eras with a more critical eye.

 

[burrunjor]

Absolutely shocking finale in my opinion. Pyramids of Mars is one of my favourite stories and Sutekh was one of the greatest villains of all time. How could they bring him back in such a mediocre story? What was the point? Much like their similarly dreadful versions of the Master, it had nothing in common with the Sutekh of old. His design was scrapped, his powers are different, and his backstory of being an Osiran, his feud with his brother, is eliminated so that he can now be father to a bunch of badly acted, campy gods like the Toymaker and Maestro.

Only plus point was Gabriel Wolf coming back and being as fabulous as ever.

Other than that someone care to explain to me the following plot holes?

Why did Sutekh hide on the TARDIS for a millennia? In Pyramids of Mars the whole threat is what happens if he got out, because he was already powerful enough to destroy the universe. That was stated by the Doctor that not even the Time Lords could stop him, we saw an alternate vision of the earth where he won and it was desolate. Now we find out he got out anyway and just hid?

Apparently Ruby's mother was what convinced him to come out. What the Time War, the TARDIS being melted by the Daleks, Trenzalore, etc NONE of these things interested him as much as a woman pointing at a road?

Also as others have pointed out are there now two Sutekhs since the TARDIS was split in two.

Why since Sutekh can make the Doctor collapse in pain by just looking at him, did he stand there and let Ruby and the Doctor wrap a rope around his collar, run back about 40 feet to the TARDS and drag him through time and space? How can a type 40, an obsolete TARDIS overpower him when the Time Lords themselves can't?

How does Sutekh have the power to rip apart a star with his mind, but can't break a rope with his hands?

Why did the vortex rip him apart the second time when it didn't before?

How was Sutekh connected to all of these other supernatural creatures? They said that there was a greater rise in the paranormal this year and......... it had NOTHING to do with him?

Why if Sutekh can take control of people so easily, did he not simply place the Doctor and Ruby Sunday under his rule and get what he wanted that way?

Also does this mean Rose Tyler is dead? Sutekh visited every world the Doctor has been too and destroyed them right? So he must have visited Pete's World. Now since the Doctor only travelled along the vortex of this universe to undo what Sutekh had done, then he didn't travel back to Rose's reality and undo it, so yeah she and Jackie are still dust.

RIP Rose and Jackie Tyler 2005=2024

Also how does Sutekh destroy planets at different points in their history? If he destroys the earth in 1066 he can't destroy it again in 1999.

It was a hot mess and really at this stage the idea that this has anything to do with the original true DW series is ridiculous.

Here

Funny how that scene manages to be scary with Sutekh's servant being represented by a mask and a cape. Compare that to this CGI mess where he looks like Scooby Doo.

Sorry, better luck next year Russell.

Somewhere out there there is a universe where Doctor Who was revived with Tim Curry as the 9th Doctor and by someone who actually likes the genre like John Carpenter, and Xena was remade with Gina Carano in the title role and they had a crossover story where the Doctor and Xena had to take on Sutekh who was planning to escape in ancient Egypt and he wasn't defeated by a rope.

Can you please send me to that universe?

 

[Cohen]

Who watches 'The Last Jedi' and goes 'ooh, that was a well-received subversion of expectations, I'll nick that'.

Yeah I agree. It is an… odd… choice to emulate. I mean I like the concept of “you’re special because people believe you’re special” but also, the story just teased significance for 8 episodes of buildup. It severely misses the mark…

Pyramids of Mars is one of my favourite stories and Sutekh was one of the greatest villains of all time.

Now I need to go back and watch this story. I bet it was so good. I’m still not quite understanding the whole plot of this story..

Why did Sutekh hide on the TARDIS for a millennia? In Pyramids of Mars the whole threat is what happens if he got out, because he was already powerful enough to destroy the universe. That was stated by the Doctor that not even the Time Lords could stop him, we saw an alternate vision of the earth where he won and it was desolate. Now we find out he got out anyway and just hid?

This didn’t make sense to me either. He latched onto the TARDIS and for literal THOUSANDS of years, just… stayed attached…

Apparently Ruby's mother was what convinced him to come out. What the Time War, the TARDIS being melted by the Daleks, Trenzalore, etc NONE of these things interested him as much as a woman pointing at a road?

Ruby’s mother is ordinary yet brought a God to destroy the earth. Make it make sense.

Also as others have pointed out are there now two Sutekhs since the TARDIS was split in two.

Hm… this is actually the copy TARDIS too… at least that’s how I saw it… so this wasn’t even the real Sutekh??

Why since Sutekh can make the Doctor collapse in pain by just looking at him, did he stand there and let Ruby and the Doctor wrap a rope around his collar, run back about 40 feet to the TARDS and drag him through time and space? How can a type 40, an obsolete TARDIS overpower him when the Time Lords themselves can't?

Plot. Because plot.

How was Sutekh connected to all of these other supernatural creatures? They said that there was a greater rise in the paranormal this year and......... it had NOTHING to do with him?

Oh good point! Why was there a surge in paranormal in these stories? But I think that’s what the Flood storyline is about, that’s supposed to be resolved in Season 2.

Also does this mean Rose Tyler is dead? Sutekh visited every world the Doctor has been too and destroyed them right? So he must have visited Pete's World. Now since the Doctor only travelled along the vortex of this universe to undo what Sutekh had done, then he didn't travel back to Rose's reality and undo it, so yeah she and Jackie are still dust.

RIP Rose and Jackie Tyler 2005=2024

Did the TARDIS go to Pete’s World? I have to rewatch that story…

Also how does Sutekh destroy planets at different points in their history? If he destroys the earth in 1066 he can't destroy it again in 1999.

This made 0 sense to me. I didn’t understand how the same world could be destroyed 8000 times, and since Ruby is ordinary why she didn’t die when her mother was destroyed in 2024 when the TARDIS visited Ruby Road.

 

[burrunjor]

Yeah I agree. It is an… odd… choice to emulate. I mean I like the concept of “you’re special because people believe you’re special” but also, the story just teased significance for 8 episodes of buildup. It severely misses the mark…


Now I need to go back and watch this story. I bet it was so good. I’m still not quite understanding the whole plot of this story..

This didn’t make sense to me either. He latched onto the TARDIS and for literal THOUSANDS of years, just… stayed attached…


Ruby’s mother is ordinary yet brought a God to destroy the earth. Make it make sense.


Hm… this is actually the copy TARDIS too… at least that’s how I saw it… so this wasn’t even the real Sutekh??


Plot. Because plot.


Oh good point! Why was there a surge in paranormal in these stories? But I think that’s what the Flood storyline is about, that’s supposed to be resolved in Season 2.



Did the TARDIS go to Pete’s World? I have to rewatch that story…


This made 0 sense to me. I didn’t understand how the same world could be destroyed 8000 times, and since Ruby is ordinary why she didn’t die when her mother was destroyed in 2024 when the TARDIS visited Ruby Road.

LOL i like the way you pointed out plot holes in the plot holes I pointed out that's how bad they are, like this isn't even the real Sutekh, or Ruby should have faded.

The TARDIS has been to Pete's world twice, in the first Cyberman one, and in Journey's End when he dropped Rose off with his clone, so yeah she's dead. Romana is also dead, as she was in another universe, E-Space which Sutekh visited so for the same reasons she'll have been left as dust.

Honestly RTD is just out of ideas. Let's leave aside all the tedious culture war nonsense that everybody gets bogged down in. Let's even leave aside my longstanding beef with new who that it just doesn't work as a sequel to the original. It (in its glory years) would have been perfectly fine as a remake or a loose sequel like the Buffy tv series to the Buffy movie, but yeah as a revival like the Star Trek movies it just didn't mesh with the classic (and those two clips above demonstrate that perfectly. PS that doesn't mean classic's is objectively better. You may prefer the bombastic nature of new who, or the quiet atmosphere of old, but they are clearly different.)

Leaving aside ALL of that, RTD is clearly just a spent force. He doesn't seem to have any enthusiasm for the show or character. I'm actually having a rewatch of his first era and Matt's era right now for the first time in a decade and like I said I can enjoy it as a thing in its own right from old who, but still when you compare the energy that went into those stories and even just the effort to now it's quite a contrast.

Even in a story I'm not so fond of like Bad Wolf, Russell at least went to the effort to explain things. Why whatever beamed him in, didn't just kill him, why the Daleks keep Rose alive, why they have been hiding for so long, why it took the Emperor years to build his army etc. Even if the resolution to that was a bit deux machina, at least it held together, where as this?

It does feel like it was dashed off in an afternoon with no thought put into "why did the villain do this, why did the villain do that" plotholes that he would have answered before. It's a shame, but it shows you why you shouldn't always go back and why it's better to move on.

I fear RTD has torched his legacy now with even his own fans

 

[Bop]

Hm… this is actually the copy TARDIS too… at least that’s how I saw it… so this wasn’t even the real Sutekh??

I was expecting them to use 14's TARDIS, there was hardly any space for The Doctor, Ruby and Mel in the memory Tardis. But even if it's a case of Donna's house and UNIT being too far apart you'd think Sutekh would collect the other Tardis.

Also- Sutekh wasn't tempted to shove them off?

 

[burrunjor]

Want a further example of how tired DW is these days?

Here Sutekh's theme from the original Pyramids of Mars. Genuinely unnerving, captures the characters madness and all consuming power and evil perfectly.

His theme from the revival by Murray Gold? It's not bad, but it's honestly just a tired rehash of the Dalek, Cybermen and the Master themes, because again Murray Gold barring a few years in Jodie's time has been doing this for about 20 years almost and is clearly out of ideas. This is Murray Gold on autopilot.

I think regardless of what side you fall on the silly culture war stuff, or new who vs classic it can be agreed that DW desperately needs new blood.

 

[Cohen]

I fear RTD has torched his legacy now with even his own fans

It does lead SOME credence to the “let’s put the Doctor to rest for a few years to rejuvenate it” mentality. I did like the middle of the season. I didn’t love the first two or last two episodes.

 

[burrunjor]

It does lead SOME credence to the “let’s put the Doctor to rest for a few years to rejuvenate it” mentality. I did like the middle of the season. I didn’t love the first two or last two episodes.

Honestly I don't see any other way forward, but if RTD does keep insisting on going on, one bit of advice for him? STOP USING CLASSIC ERA VILLAINS AND CHARACTERS!

My biggest beef with New Who is its relationship to the classic era. I would have had 0 problem with it being a remake. Whilst classic who will always be the greatest work of sci fi to me, I think it's pretty silly to expect its continuity to go on forever. Even if he does change his face, there are still limits and I HATE having it that time can be rewritten when it suits us. (Also if you have to rewrite canon in universe, that's a sign it's come to it's natural end. To me reboots in universe are almost always terrible as they ensure there are never any stakes and that nothing matters.)

So yeah I understand that the idea of DW much like Dracula or Batman is bigger than any continuity, and therefore have 0 problem with remakes, or alternate sequels to classic who, or loose sequels etc. If New Who had been any of those I'd have been fine with any of its changes. Instead it has the worst of all worlds where it is written basically as a remake, with a totally different core characterisation for the Doctor, lore being ignored etc, yet it can't get over the past and revels in it all the time. On the one hand, new viewers are put off by all these old references and it looks like a show that has nothing to offer but member berries, whilst those of us who get the member berries are often pissed because the characters are never written faithfully and worse, these changes are often rewritten into the history of classic who in Big Finish, guides, books etc to make them fit.

Nowhere is this bad approach more evident than how New Who handles the classic villains. Apart from the Daleks, most of the big villains have not been written as the characters they actually were in classic who. Now I'm not saying that you can't change them at all. Obviously the Master alone changed over the course of classic who, but the changes need to be natural. IE the burned Master is recognizably the same character, he's just more desperate after whatever happened to him.

In new who however they almost always toss out the classic villains backstories, character arcs, relationships with the Doctor, powers, motivations etc. It's often just the name, or some vague gimmick such as the following.

Sutekh: In the original he was an alien, an Osiran, his hatred of his brother Horus was a driving force "Now Horus we shall see who rules the cosmos." "All sentient life is our kin Sutekh" "That was Horus' claim I refute it!" This is also reflected in that horrifying moment where Marcus who is under Sutekh's control tortures Lawrence, his brother to death when the latter tries to get through him. "Marcus I'm your brother" "As Horus was brother to Sutekh!" Warring brothers is one of the main themes of that story. Sutekh also drew very heavily from Egyptian mythology and old Mummy horror movies (reflecting Bob Holmes the writers love of both.) The entire point of the story was if he escapes that's it we're dead, as nothing can stop him, not even the Time Lords. Even when imprisoned he could torture the Doctor with a look, or put his mind in his.

In New Who he is genuinely supernatural and now comes from outside our universe (as that's where his children come from, like the Toymaker.) His status as an Osiran and his hatred of his brother are never touched upon, or mentioned Egyptian mythology and old horror movies are not drawn from at all (in fact the production team said they wanted to get him AWAY from Egyptian mythology.) Also his powers are different in that now we find out he escaped at the end of Pyramids of Mars (making the story all for nothing.) And spent hundreds of thousands of years riding on top of a time machine doing............ nothing.

Also he can now be defeated by an obsolete piece of Time Lord technology like the Doctors TARDIS and seems to have forgotten his mind powers, since he just stands there and lets Ruby put a rope around his neck and do nothing. All of this is before I mention his design being changed completely.

The Master: In old who he was a suave, manipulative villain who enjoyed twisting people's minds in various ways. His ultimate aim was to gain power over the galaxy and establish his perfect order. Initially he claimed it would be for the greater good, but it was obvious that it was just his own megalomania. His trademark powers were hypnosis and his shrinking ray, and he despised the Doctor. He and the Doctor did know each other prior to their feud and in ONE story the Doctor expresses regret that his friend ended up like this, but that's it. They are bitter enemies from Delgado to AInely, with the Master at one point mentioning that his hatred of the Doctor keeps him going when he is near death as he can't let the Doctor outlive him.

In New Who first of all we have the drums retcon which doesn't fit, and changes him from a total asshole villain, to a tragic, crying on the inside villain. He's also more of a giggling CRAAAAAAZZZZZZZZYYYYYYY villain too. Then there is Missy who seemed to make it her life's work to throw out every part of the Masters character. She doesn't want power, she is in love with the Doctor, she isn't manipulative, she has killer perfume instead of a shrinking ray, is not hypnotic, she isn't even his enemy for most of her time. Also the Doctor and the Masters friendship is now the most important relationship in eithers lives and they love each other.

Cybermen: In old who they were a race of humanoids from earth's twin planet who turned themselves into cybernetic creatures when Mondas began to drift away from the sun, and who were often on the brink of extinction after Mondas was destroyed. In New Who meanwhile, first they come from an alternate universe version of earth and were created by one man. Also in the original Cyber conversion was a gradual, agonizing process where your body was ripped away and replaced with metal, bit by bit, where as here it is just a body swap with a robot. Whilst they did return to the Mondas idea in Capaldi's time, even then they messed it up by making out that the Cybermen were never just one race, but millions of races that were unconnected, with Cybermen simply being a result of convergent evolution which contradicts all the times they were a unique race in the original. (Like every story!)

Great Intelligence: In the original he was an entity from another universe that crept his way into ours when a monk was meditating, and took him over in 16th century Tibet. For 400 years the Intelligence whilst possessing the Monk, built up robot Yetis to defend himself and build a machine that would allow him to fully manifest. The Doctor stops this in the 1930s and sends the Intelligence back to its universe, but when a scientist who helped the Doctor defeat the Intelligence in the 30s activates one of the Yeti robots in an experiment 40 years later, the Intelligence returns and builds another army of Yeti Robots to take over London in an attempt to lure the Doctor into a trap to drain his mind. The Doctor again defeats it, but the Intelligence whilst cut off from its Yetis is sent into space.

The Intelligence is also portrayed as cold and logical, having no hatred towards the Doctor and is also cowardly shrieking in panic when the Doctor threatens it.

In New Who the Intelligence was created by Walter Simeon in the 19th century. He was a low level psychic and unknowingly projected his resentments into a snowman when he was young, which allowed them to form into a new mind that he kept alive for decades, until it became the Intelligence. The Doctor stops its attempted take over in the 19th century, but it escapes and is loose on the earth for over 100 years until the 21st century, where it finally is able to leave the earth in The Bells of Saint John.

Its personality is also wildly different. It is openly sadistic, consumed with hatred for the Doctor to the point where it is willing to kill itself to get him, it also has different powers, being able to assume an avatar of Simeon (whilst in the original it could only speak through hosts) and it also never uses its Yeti Robots from the original.

Again as you can see only the Daleks really fit in with their classic era counterparts, and to be honest I think that's because the Daleks are jointly owned by Terry Nation, their creators family and not just the BBC so they have to be careful. Even then they ****ed up Davros' design too that was obviously a huge part of his character.

In all instances you have to wonder who were these classic villains returns for? You guys, new who fans don't care and I'm pissed off LOL. It is the worst of all worlds and needs to stop pronto. (Or if they insist on bringing them back write them properly, but Kathleen Kennedy is more likely to churn out something that's not a stinking piece of shit than that.)