Spoiler! Doctor Who: Spoiler Thread

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I feel like for some people, nothing the writers do will be enough because it’s not traditional Who. But the shows evolved over time. You can’t expect a 60 year old show to play the same beats year after year. And obviously people enjoy it because it’s a global phenomenon still. Disney wouldn’t have swooped it up if they didn’t think they could use the IP to boost subscriptions.
Not true at all. Classic Who wasn't the same over its 60 years. I expect a 21st century version of the Doctor to be different in some ways, but there is a fine line between that and it not resembling the original at all.

21st century Who is comparable to the 1998 Godzilla. From the very beginning, even in Eccelston's era.

Both were made by someone who openly disliked the original, and thought it was a cheap joke and only wanted to remake it to boost their careers and because they maybe liked the odd aspect of it. (Roland Emmerich and Russel T Davies.)

Both however decided to make it more like modern series that they didn't sneer at, like Jurassic Park in Godzilla's case and Buffy/Angel/Xena in DW's (and the only reason they didn't look down on these other franchises, was for shallow reasons. JP had big effects, Buffy/Xena/Angel had lots of sex and their fans were young trendy girls and LGBTQ people, not smelly white male anoraks.)

Both took away time honoured traditions from the character, like Godzilla's indestructability, fire breath, design, the Doctors aristocratic nature, asexual nature, more stoic persona, reason for travelling etc because they thought they were embarrassing.

Sadly as I have been over before, established classic era DW fans were self loathers thanks to the bullying the show got from panel show comedians and media shills, spurned on by people like Michael Grade, and so were desperate for the brand DW to be hugely popular again they were seduced by RTD's success, made out he was their messiah and encouraged more vandalisations of the show over the years out of terror that without them we'd go back to the wilderness years, which eventually led to the whole thing being ripped apart, possibly beyond repair. Godzilla fans meanwhile, weren't seduced by the 98 movie's success (and it was a box office success) and trashed it rightfully as not being a Godzilla movie, sending a message make it Godzilla, or don't bother at all.

Ultimately the end result is that the Godzilla franchise in the west DID course correct and we got proper updated Godzilla movies, with Godzilla 2014, Godzilla King of the Monsters and the Godzilla vs Kong movies, which were all big mainstream successes too. Godzy baby has never been stronger and the fans are vindicated in thinking that the character can be updated, whilst the Doctor is, well I mean just look at him. Just look at him! We are further away from proper DW than ever before.

Again look at this video that puts a clip from the original Godzilla series side by side with the modern one. You can see the differences in effects, but ultimately how it's the same character.


Doctor Who however?



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I rest my case.
 
Bop
Bop
What's wrong with The Doctor in a club?
I rest my case.
I'm laughing at all you Dr Who fans that lamented how the Timeless Children was the worst. LOL. This'll make you yearn for Whittaker again. At least she seemed more... doctorish.
 
Cohen
Cohen
I love the Doctor dancing
Bop
Bop
I'm with Cohen I liked this scene
thetopher
thetopher
It's obviously dire and cringe. Completely uncharacteristic but whatever.
burrunjor
burrunjor
Timeless Children is still the worst retcon, but yeah Ncuti technically isn't even playing the Doctor anymore. Just RTD's self insert.
Yeah there isn't really a definition for real Doctor Who and that's shown by everyone having a different definition.
There is though, that's what's annoying.

In Classic Who, regeneration was like an advanced form of healing. His body broke down, it repaired itself by rebuilding itself from scratch, giving him a new appearance. His outer personality was also given a shake up as a result, but his consciousness, core persona, memories etc all remained unchanged. The differences between the different Doctors were more akin to the differences we all go through at different stages in our life, only more rapid. He did not become a totally different person each time.

The Doctors core character that ran throughout all of the first 7 meanwhile is as follows.

He is mysterious about his origins and never lets us know his real name.

He is a pompous, aristocratic, somewhat stuffy very British hero (even if he is Gallifreyan LOL I mean in character.) That helps him stand out from other male heroes, and it ties into the characters literary influences as being a Holmesian, gentlemanly adventurer type.

He wants to travel the universe to learn about its people, cultures, etc. He doesn't set out to be a hero, but his strong sense of morality and his curiosity get him into trouble where he is forced to act.

He wants to live life on his own terms and is very much a hedonist. Far from being a hero ironically if he's asked to help he'll often be reluctant as then it becomes work. We see this with Hartnell in Keys of Marinus, Pertwee when he is exiled to earth, Tom in Key to Time etc who all have to be forced, even threatened into helping to save the day.

He is an older, in some ways more mature character who doesn't fear death, can cope with great loss, not let his emotions cloud his brain (unless it is his curiosity) and often serves as a mentor, grandfather figure to his companions. Conversely he can also be childish when it comes to getting his way. Still he is very much a stiff upper lip British hero despite his childishness. We never see him cry for instance, apart from when the regeneration has gone wrong and he is meant to be insane in Twin Dilemma.

He is largely asexual. Though he did have a grand daughter, for whatever reason he isn't interested in romance any more, and his companions often serve as a surrogate grand daughter figure, are too young for him anyway and are of a different species LOL.

He is a Jack of all trades master of none, who has through a combination of his long life, small attention span and time machine that can allow him to visit all the greats, picked up skills in many areas from fighting to medicine.

His moral code is very strict. He will kill his enemies if need be, and using whatever method he has like guns, explosives, bio weapons etc. However if possible he will try and find alternative solutions and he doesn't like killing his enemies when they are unarmed and helpless. However when it comes to recurring foes like Davros, the Daleks and the Master he can sometimes be pushed into killing them if need be, even when they are helpless.

Even physically and in terms of small quirks there are patterns that run throughout the Doctors. They all tend to dress in Edwardian/Victorian era clothing, they all tend wear frock coats, and other motifs like scarfs, hats, and cloaks run through the Doctors costumes, they all tend to have big, long, crazy hair to reflect the characters bohemian nature etc.

Hell even a love of Jelly babies runs throughout multiple Doctors.

Also finally the type of actor they got to play the Doctor in the classic era was usually an older, more eccentric, offbeat character actor, who by that stage at least was firmly typecast in larger than life, supporting roles, such as villains, comic reliefs etc. Hartnell was primarily a villain actor at that point and was even known as Britain's leading menace, Troughton though a leading man when he was younger, was now typecast in offbeat supporting roles on film and tv like in Jason and the Argonauts, Jon Pertwee was a rubber faced comedian, Tom Baker had similarly been a Tim Curry type actor, known for playing mad, bad and dangerous to know villains, Colin similarly though a leading man in his youth, was firmly a bad guy actor at that point, and McCoy, well he has always been the definition of a quirky oddball actor.

Peter Davison was really the one exception, and he was good, which shows you can sometimes go beyond the template in terms of the type of actor you cast, but ultimately there was a particular type of actor in the role of the Doctor.

You are wrong that there is no similarity between Hartnell and Troughton. The myth comes from the fact that you are right that Hartnell had a character arc, where we saw him go from a selfish ass to the Doctor we know and love. Sadly however Hartnell's third season that shows the end result of that is destroyed basically. There's like 2 or 3 stories that survive from it. Not as many people are willing to check out the recons, understandably as they require about 10 times the attention, and on top of that they are of older shows that don't match modern tastes too. Still Hartnell sets the template for who the Doctor is (no pun intended) in season 3.

I am not opposed to the Doctor going through a character arc meanwhile, but the changes have to be natural and flow realisitically from the previous incarnation. Regeneration can only really account for the outer personality changing, which is not nothing, but you can't change the fundamentals for that reason.

Meanwhile the show itself whilst going through multiple different genres, always had a focus on adventure, derring do, and really post Hartnell sci fi of some kind. Also the villains that recurred also had a fairly consistent characterisation and backstory too.

If you wanted to do a sequel to classic who, you had to follow this characterisation and develop from there naturally, and when necessary refer to past continuity, if you were doing a story with an old villain.

If you don't want to do that, fine. Do a remake. I think in a remake you can be more experimental, in fact I think you should. Though even then you still have to stick to the basic template of the character, IE the Doctor still has to be a time traveller, still has to have a blue box, some of his iconic foes should appear etc. Still remakes obviously can play around with things.

However RTD wanted to have his cake and eat it too. He basically wrote it as a remake in the 9th Doctors era, but threw in references to classic era to try and win round its huge fanbase and play on the nostalgia the general public had for it.

As a result we got the following.

The 9th Doctor had none of the Doctors core characterisation.

He doesn't travel because he wants to see the universe. He travels because his people are gone, and he misses his people and just wants to settle down somewhere and have a normal life.

He falls in love with his 19 year old companion.

He dresses in completely modern contemporary clothes , has short hair and looks otherwise normal.

His moral code is all over the place, he kills people for vengeance and anger, yet refuses under any circumstances to use a gun, apart from when he is meant to be mad.

He always lets his emotions cloud his brain, is completely hysterical and loses it several times and sheds tears regularly.

He isn't as much of a Jack of All Trades. We don't see him fighting that much for instance.

Also the 9th Doctor wasn't played by a weird character actor. Eccelston is more what you would call a conventional, unconventional leading man who had played a number of leading men in more conventional dramas. Whilst again he could have overcome that like Davison, he was written as a more conventional, romantic hero.

Eccelston's Doctor was written as being a working class character with a down to earth accent. Again I myself am working class, so it's not like I am saying "oh never have a working class hero" LOL. However the Doctor again is the gentleman adventurer type. Also I am not saying don't cast a working class actor. Hartnell was more working class than Eccelston, and spoke in a working class accent in real life. (Listen to his desert island discs interview.) However he deliberately perfected that posh voice he spoke in as the Doctor. Eccelston didn't bother.

You could have maybe justified some of these changes or worked them in naturally, like his people being gone makes him a bit more unpredictable, but all of them at once was too big a departure, and on top of that, the format of the show changed.

Now just as much focus was put on the companion, if not more, and the show became all about romance, soap opera, love triangles and so on.

All story arcs from classic who, Dalek civil war, Cybermen's story arc from Tenth Planet to Silver Nemesis, the Master's relationship with the Doctor were all tossed in the bin. The Cybermen now had a completely different origin, the Master also had a completely different origin and a completely different pseudo romantic relationship with the Doctor.

These problems only got worse with Tennant, and were not helped by the odd member berry like Sarah Jane (who was also written out of character, by being retconned to being in love with the Doctor.)

Admittedly things were pulled back with Matt. Whilst I think they cast him because he was young and cute, he was a more offbeat kind of an actor, and unlike Tennant and Eccelston who didn't really know anything about the original, he went back and watched it and got to know the character. Also at that point I think Moffat wanted to try and recapture the classic era feel a bit more.

Incidentally it's worth mentioning that Matt Smith is by far the most popular doctor among classic who fans from the revival. Of course that's not to say he was perfect. He did still have a lot of New Whoisms too, but overall he I think bridged the gap between classic and new who. He was more alien and professorial than Tennant and Eccelston, had a more Doctorish moral code, dressed like the Doctor, but he was a bit younger, more vulnerable like the new who Doctors.

On top of that his era removed a lot of the RTD baggage like the Time War, allowing the Doctor to just be a traveller again etc.

Had the Capaldi era been what Moffat intended, an era with darker, more serious sci fi stories, with a more up to date version of the Classic era type of Doctor, then yes. New Who and Old Who could have been compatible in spite of the RTD era, which in hindsight could have just been looked on as a weird period in the Doctors history.

However sadly the new generation of fans that RTD built up in his era, were not happy with it going back to the classic era style. I'm not saying you can't get anyone who enjoys both styles, but overall it's fair to say RTD's core audience didn't much care for classic who. Why would they? It's a totally different type of show to the one they liked.

As Moffat was desperate not to lose them as he felt they were the young audience, he went back the way in Capaldi's time to the RTD era style with a vengeance and that coupled with political climate at the time, caused the Capaldi era to finally cut the revival off from the original. Post Missy there is no going back to it being a proper sequel, and then of course Jodie cements that.

Still you have to ask yourself why did Moffat go back the way? It was because of RTD bringing his new type of fan to the show. PS I'm not saying that type of fan was bad. In fact my best friend in DW fandom, Claudia Boleyn who I absolutely adore, is the epitome of that type of fan. However still that does just show what I'm saying that the revival is a remake. It's like Gary Oldman's Dracula to Christopher Lee's Dracula. Yeah some people who just love the core concept will appreciate both, but ultimately both are made for different audiences.

Sadly however Moff, Chibbers and RTD still didn't want to lose the classic audience either and so they kept crowbarring in all these classic references and characters and again often wrote them out of character too, and worse in order to justify all their changes and retcons, they did stupid stories and came up with lazy explanations like bi regeneration and the Toymaker making a jigsaw out of his history which basically is just "A Wizard did it."

The whole thing is a convoluted mess now as a result, and honestly the only way DW can go on is if the revival finishes and then after a break we get an alternate sequel with a new 9th Doctor. Still have it that new who, along with the Cushing movies and Shalka take place in alternate universes, but otherwise we have to dump gender bending time lords, timeless children, bi regeneration, all this rubbish that just muddies the water.
 
NotASlayer
NotASlayer
I think I see similarities between Tom Baker and Matt Smith's Doctors.
He is a pompous, aristocratic, somewhat stuffy very British hero (even if he is Gallifreyan LOL I mean in character.)

I think that's true for most of the classic doctors but the second and fourth doctors don't feel particularly aristocratic to me. I suppose Tom's voice does sound upper class but his doctor is too alien to feel particularly aristocratic British.


You are wrong that there is no similarity between Hartnell and Troughton. The myth comes from the fact that you are right that Hartnell had a character arc, where we saw him go from a selfish ass to the Doctor we know and love

Yeah by the end of Hartnell's arc he is like the second doctor and the core of the doctor has been born, but at the start Hartnell isn't like the second doctor. So only goes to show that extreme change is possible, but under the right circumstances and if it makes sense. I feel the time war and becoming the last timelord in existence explains a lot of the changes between the old and new doctors, in terms of them becoming more emotional, more attached to Earth, and just different because that event changed them from being a curious wanderer and sometimes hero to someone who is alone, can't go home at all even if they wanted to, and someone with sort of an obligation to help the universe out because the time lords are gone.

Overall, if none of the past 5 doctors have felt like the Classic Doctor to you entirely it makes sense that Ncuti doesn't either, because he's evolved most recently from them.
 
So Iv seen Day of the Doctor which is a 10 out of 10 Smith/Tenant and Hurt are all on top firm. Utterly brilliant and The Time of the Doctor. That's a 9 but not 10. Matt Smiths old age makeup was terrible and the whole Weeping Angel's scene was pointless.
Handles was great and really needed another episode before this.

So that's Matt Smith run done. He followed the Troughton formula and did 3 (and a half) years then done. That and the Shooting schedule was getting to much for him which was notoriously intense.
He was truly excellent and a great Dr. Hopefully he will return in a special at some point.
I actually preferred him to Tennant though I know that's controversial.
 
NotASlayer
NotASlayer
I also prefer Matt to David.
Bop
Bop
David is my childhood doctor so he's my favourite but Matt Smith is second and I understand why he's a favourite for others
@Bop @NotASlayer There were some bad episodes in the tenure but none of the issues in them were to do with Matt Smiths acting, he was always on the A Game for me.

Here's a question, what's your thoughts on the Ponds. Stayed around to long or not around enough or just right ?

Overall Season 5 was the best year for the tenure and 7 the worst simply because it was both a mess and long winded goodbye.

My top 3 episodes of the Matt Smith Tenure
Day of the Dr
Vincent and the Dr
The Doctors Wife

Fun trivia fact but both Matt Smith and Karen Gillan were wearing wigs in that final scenes as both had shaved there heads for other roles they were doing at the same time 😄
 
To me, David Tennant comes across as a very human Doctor. Matt Smith, on the other hand, tends to come across as an alien in a human suit, and that just seems to work better for me. Of the modern Doctors, Matt is my favourite followed by David.

I don't think I'd say the Ponds stayed around too long. But I liked Amy from the start and Rory grew on me.
 
OK so Iv seen the first 2 episodes of the Capaldi era in S8.

Deep Breath was a fun introduction showing a more ruthless cold blooded Dr who basically leaves Clara to be killed. And of course the introduction of Missy who is a pure delight. Matt Smith phone call cameo was good too.
Flip side Clara reaction felt off. She'd literally been in the Dr's whole life in The Name of the Doctor and all the different regenerations. She more than anyone should be aware the Doctor is different after a Regeneration. But she isn't because plot reasons. Also the Dinasour was wasted too which was a shame.

Into the Dalek This was fine but I feel it could've been better. Like it needed some rewrites. For example when the Daleks invade the ship you think they'd notice the Tardis in the corner !
Also the future human characters are meh. 1 second they are just going to kill the Doctor then they don't for again well reasons I guess. Again the Dr shows his ruthless side with the guy who was killed by the antibodies. Still all that aside, Rusty was interesting new addition and I enjoyed the episode
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**** Chibnall forever

This inadvertently highlights a problem for Dr Who show. They've been paid by Disney but the US audience even more than the UK audience is very socially Conservative, I'm not sure RTD lecturing will gain the wider audience it wants over there. Its already getting tiresome in the UK so the US audience will take that dial amd twist it by 11. While turning it into more child like fantasy will simply put off regular fans and destroy why children and families loved it.
 
Deep Breath was a fun introduction showing a more ruthless cold blooded Dr who basically leaves Clara to be killed.

I like Deep Breath but looking back Capaldi's arc doesn't really live up to what this episode suggests. I think they definitely caved and changed his Doctor as it went on.

In some ways it's hard to blame them though because I remember Capaldi was dealing with a lot of ageism from the fandom. Some fans left with Matt Smith, but that's not new because some fans left with David Tennant too.
 
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the US audience even more than the UK audience is very socially Conservative, I'm not sure RTD lecturing will gain the wider audience it wants over there.
Is the Doctor Who audience in the US socially conservative? I feel like in the US the sci-fi audience is generally pretty socially liberal. I mean, the last 2 Doctors had lesbian companions and the last Doctor was at the very least bisexual. Jack Harkness was flamboyantly bisexual. Not to mention many of the socially liberal themes that have been woven into the show for the last 18 years. The show has never really pandered to a "conservative" audience. In fact, sci-fi in general does not usually pander to conservative audiences.
 
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I like Deep Breath but looking back Capaldi's arc doesn't really live up to what this episode suggests. I think they definitely caved and changed his Doctor as it went on.

In some ways it's hard to blame them though because I remember Capaldi was dealing with a lot of ageism from the fandom. Some fans left with Matt Smith, but that's not new because some fans left with David Tennant too.
Well even back in the Unearthly Child they sort of sanitised him. The Dr basically kidnapped 2 people and intended to murder a wounded caveman for slowing them down. Both were basically forgotten
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Is the Doctor Who audience in the US socially conservative? I feel like in the US the sci-fi audience is generally pretty socially liberal. I mean, the last 2 Doctors had lesbian companions and the last Doctor was at the very least bisexual. Jack Harkness was flamboyantly bisexual. Not to mention many of the socially liberal themes that have been woven into the show for the last 18 years. The show has never really pandered to a "conservative" audience. In fact, sci-fi in general does not usually pander to conservative audiences.

Torchwood got cancelled. Plus this is on Disney now and Disney definitely have an Audience that's particular
 
Plus this is on Disney now and Disney definitely have an Audience that's particular
I don't even blame the Disney audience, who I agree probably swing moderate/liberal at least if they're watching DW, but the higher ups in Disney (like the ones whose names aren't even that well known bc of how actually powerful they are) for sure lean conservative, as do all of the ultra-rich. They can peacock about having non-white or queer characters but the bottom line is they will only ever take that representation as far as they think that it's profitable. In general these ultra-rich media moguls don't care about diversity or inclusion, they just say that they do in order to: a) get liberal viewers, b) piss off the ultra-conservative niche (bc it is a much smaller niche than people think) to signal that they are certainly not accepting of that level of bigotry, while also c) not actually alienating their moderate audiences by creating media that's actually revolutionary or subversive, as those audiences get twitchy if their media swings too far in either political direction. They'll do just enough to appear progressive, accept the nit-picky backlash they get from actual leftists as "publicity discourse", and make money all the way down. Of course this is me just talking out of my a** mostly lol. But this is my understanding of the Western media industry.
 
Well even back in the Unearthly Child they sort of sanitised him. The Dr basically kidnapped 2 people and intended to murder a wounded caveman for slowing them down. Both were basically forgotten

He's still a bit of a devil in the second story The Daleks- sabotaging the TARDIS just so he would get to see the City, which almost kills them all, and then in the third story The Edge of Destruction he wants to throw Ian and Barbara out into space. I think it was a gradual change.
 
Torchwood got cancelled. Plus this is on Disney now and Disney definitely have an Audience that's particular
Disney+ is carrying it, but I would argue the shows that have been produced on Disney+ have been far from conservative.
I don't even blame the Disney audience, who I agree probably swing moderate/liberal at least if they're watching DW, but the higher ups in Disney (like the ones whose names aren't even that well known bc of how actually powerful they are) for sure lean conservative, as do all of the ultra-rich. They can peacock about having non-white or queer characters but the bottom line is they will only ever take that representation as far as they think that it's profitable. In general these ultra-rich media moguls don't care about diversity or inclusion, they just say that they do in order to: a) get liberal viewers, b) piss off the ultra-conservative niche (bc it is a much smaller niche than people think) to signal that they are certainly not accepting of that level of bigotry, while also c) not actually alienating their moderate audiences by creating media that's actually revolutionary or subversive, as those audiences get twitchy if their media swings too far in either political direction. They'll do just enough to appear progressive, accept the nit-picky backlash they get from actual leftists as "publicity discourse", and make money all the way down. Of course this is me just talking out of my a** mostly lol. But this is my understanding of the Western media industry.
Disney USED to be heavily conservative, but I mean.. look at "Turning Red" as just the first example in my head. Not conservative in the least.
 
Thread way over the post limit, but also seems to have gone off the special episodes, and into politics. If opening a new thread please keep it on topic and leave swearing out of posts.
 
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