Does Angel Deserve Buffy?

Alot of those ^ views are why I think it should be does Buffy deserve Angel, actually, because everything Angel ever did (with the exception of becoming angellus but that would have been smokin hot) had Buffys best interest in mind. Even if she didnt know it or think it. Or even if it was the wise thing, he was still doing what he thought was in her best interest; can the same be said of her?
 
Alot of those ^ views are why I think it should be does Buffy deserve Angel, actually.

Even if you turn the question around there would be a similar list of ways that she was there for him.

Like I said, it wasn't one sided. Not by a longshot.
 
Never said it was one sided, but during their relationship (and part could be due to her age) a bit of Buffys actions were self motivated.
 
Professor Walsh
Professor Walsh
Well - she was y o u n g.
Never said it was one sided, but during their relationship (and part could be due to her age) a bit of Buffys actions were self motivated.

Apologies, I was still thinking of the other post.

When you say some of her actions were self motovated? Which ones do you mean?
 
Just alot of little ones; I always thought that.. but like I said, my head is killing me and there so so much pressure on my nose my eyes hurt so I cant go through a litany of reasons. Sorry, didnt mean for that to sound as harsh as it did.. wasnt snapping. But overall, it just seemed that when she wanted it (i mean a relationship et al, not it as in the sex) she kept him closer. It just seemed like it was always on her own terms to me. That being said, I am not very fond of Buffy anyway and she is by far my least favorite character.

edit: it wasnt until Dawn that I started to like the character.
 
Just alot of little ones; I always thought that.. but like I said, my head is killing me and there so so much pressure on my nose my eyes hurt so I cant go through a litany of reasons. Sorry, didnt mean for that to sound as harsh as it did.. wasnt snapping. But overall, it just seemed that when she wanted it (i mean a relationship et al, not it as in the sex) she kept him closer. It just seemed like it was always on her own terms to me. That being said, I am not very fond of Buffy anyway and she is by far my least favorite character.

edit: it wasnt until Dawn that I started to like the character.

What is your favorite character? =P
 
I couldn't agree more with Kean. She described the relationship as it is, you built it before our eyes girl!!!:smile3:

My big complaint about season 2(before Surprise) is that we see small(yet important) scenes of Angel although it is clear that whenever Buffy wants a "sanctuary" that would be her Angel. I mean I know there is more and I would like to see it.

And I am going to say a few things about what I have read in this thread in general : The age difference doesn't make you mature or smarter. Buffy has faced more than a person of her age could handle and yet she stood her ground. In the terms of love, both of them were at the same place...sure Angel has been with many women as Angelus or Liam...but that doesn't count because he never LOVED any of them. And Buffy is more innocent and has little experience and she loves Angel, she loves a guy for the first time in her life.

It's definitely not one-sided, as Kean said perfectly well. My opinion about her acting "weirdly" sometimes, or seeming to be ruling their relationship is partly because she was young and she had never loved before.Also, the show is about Buffy.And we get to see things from her point of view I believe. "Reptile boy" despite the fact many people don't like it, has been IMO the episode where they can realise that their feelings are serious. Maybe that scares them, the amount of their love for each other might scare them.
 
What is your favorite character? =P
I dont know if I really had a favorite; it was easy to identify with all of them and see parts of oneself in all, save Buffy (until later seasons)

I was rather fond of most the 'baddies' like the Mayor and Snyder.. but I think the closest thing to a favorite character would be Riley, simply because he was the most 'real' to me. Probably my least favorite (minor?) character was Rona as most of her dialogue seemed less ingenious than other characters.
 
Just alot of little ones; I always thought that.. but like I said, my head is killing me and there so so much pressure on my nose my eyes hurt so I cant go through a litany of reasons. Sorry, didnt mean for that to sound as harsh as it did.. wasnt snapping. But overall, it just seemed that when she wanted it (i mean a relationship et al, not it as in the sex) she kept him closer. It just seemed like it was always on her own terms to me. That being said, I am not very fond of Buffy anyway and she is by far my least favorite character.

edit: it wasnt until Dawn that I started to like the character.

It seemed to me that Buffy always wanted relationships on her terms. She was never much for compromise. It was less obvious with Angel because of all the teen angst clouding up the screen, but it was very clear with Riley and Spike. And then when she went to visit Angel that time she was trying to make him feel bad, telling him about her new love. She didn't give a whole heck of a lot of thought to other people's feelings a lot of the time, particularly in the relationship sense.
 
Skanky Vamp
Skanky Vamp
yeah! right on.. thats kinda what i was trying to get it but.. couldnt express
The question I ask myself at this point is, what exactly makes somebody deserving to someone else?
Isn't it just a question of if these 2 people (undeads included 😛) want to be together?
As long as both parties of the relationship want to remain a couple, I'd say they are deserving each other.
'Deserving' sounds like it's some kind of reward, but that's just not how love works.
 
BibliophileAnn
BibliophileAnn
Love your Jack and Rose signature. I am a huge Jack and Rose fan, along with Titanic which is my fav movie.
E
Eleftheria
I believe you are right...if you love a person and he/she loves you back then you deserve one another
It seemed to me that Buffy always wanted relationships on her terms. She was never much for compromise. It was less obvious with Angel because of all the teen angst clouding up the screen, but it was very clear with Riley and Spike. And then when she went to visit Angel that time she was trying to make him feel bad, telling him about her new love. She didn't give a whole heck of a lot of thought to other people's feelings a lot of the time, particularly in the relationship sense.

I always thought that Buffy's way of telling Angel about Riley was to hurt him. It was petty, yes, but in my opinion she was hurting at the time. She's gone to help Angel and protect him from Faith only to get there and find that Angel was protecting Faith. That has got to hurt and shows she still has feelings for him. Her telling Angel about Riley that way was a retalliation of her hurt.

I think they both deserved each other. They were exactly what they needed for each other, they helped each other survive through some of the most difficult battles and emotional hardships. They understood each other and more importantly they loved each other.
 
Then came Graduation Day Part 2 and the scene where he feeds of her. I think everyone but me found this epic and moving, I sided with Xander.
"It's nice to know that when the chips are down, you'll feed off the girl that loves you to save your own ass."
I still can't believe that scene and I was happy to see him leave. He's had a few hundred years of existence but he feeds off a young girl who he loves to get some more time. I hate that scene. No matter how much she hit him, he should never have fed. Probably the most selfish thing he ever did.
He's a vampire. He was weak and dying, and couldn't control his natural instincts and urges. And Buffy forced him into her neck. Animal instincts take over in a situation like that. It can't be helped.

---------- Post added at 12:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:38 AM ----------

I always thought that Buffy's way of telling Angel about Riley was to hurt him. It was petty, yes, but in my opinion she was hurting at the time. She's gone to help Angel and protect him from Faith only to get there and find that Angel was protecting Faith. That has got to hurt and shows she still has feelings for him. Her telling Angel about Riley that way was a retalliation of her hurt.
If you really love someone you don't hurt them deliberately. She also physically assaulted him and then actually had the audacity to get angry when he defended himself. And not only did she never apologize for these things, but she actually expected an apology from him. That's not love.
 
I wouldn't say that he doesn't deserve her...but it's impossible for them to be together without constant drama so it's better that they're not. They really just aren't meant to be, which sucks because they're so in love.

---------- Post added at 12:54 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:44 AM ----------

He's a vampire. He was weak and dying, and couldn't control his natural instincts and urges. And Buffy forced him into her neck. Animal instincts take over in a situation like that. It can't be helped.

---------- Post added at 12:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:38 AM ----------


If you really love someone you don't hurt them deliberately. She also physically assaulted him and then actually had the audacity to get angry when he defended himself. And not only did she never apologize for these things, but she actually expected an apology from him. That's not love.

Seriously. I agree with just...all of this. Well except for Buffy deliberately trying to hurt Angel. I hated that she rubbed Riley in Angel's face but...I'm not sure if that was truly her goal. I mean...I don't know. It kind of makes sense. She was pissed about the Faith situation and maybe she did want him to feel as crappy as she did. That's normal. And that was ridiculous when she looked shocked that Angel hit her back, she is stronger than him!
 
If you really love someone you don't hurt them deliberately. She also physically assaulted him and then actually had the audacity to get angry when he defended himself. And not only did she never apologize for these things, but she actually expected an apology from him. That's not love.

It should be known before I post this that I am not the person to defend Bangel or Bangel's love. I'm really not.

But... in fairness to Buffy here... She did just see Angel with Faith. And he was defending her. And Faith had just like literally stolen Buffy's life temporarily. She hurt him deliberately because he hurt her worse than imaginable the way he treated her when she walked in and the way he was with Faith. He was hugging her when Buffy walked in. And both Buffy and Angel hit each other in that scene. So while I do believe they both should have apologized, Buffy wasn't in the wrong for not apologizing for that... especially if you're going to suggest that Angel wasn't. Also, the apology she expected was about the pain of seeing him hug Faith and defend her the way he did.
 
brinkster130
brinkster130
[No message]
Kean
Kean
Never in a million years did I think we would agree on Bangel's romantic feelings for each other! :p
But... in fairness to Buffy here... She did just see Angel with Faith. And he was defending her. And Faith had just like literally stolen Buffy's life temporarily. She hurt him deliberately because he hurt her worse than imaginable the way he treated her when she walked in and the way he was with Faith. He was hugging her when Buffy walked in. And both Buffy and Angel hit each other in that scene. So while I do believe they both should have apologized, Buffy wasn't in the wrong for not apologizing for that... especially if you're going to suggest that Angel wasn't. Also, the apology she expected was about the pain of seeing him hug Faith and defend her the way he did.
Angel defended himself. Buffy hit him first and was about strike him a second time when he decided to not take it. Then suddenly she goes all feeble and girly and acts like he had no right to defend himself against her. Like, what? He's just supposed to let her beat on him?

---------- Post added at 02:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:25 AM ----------

Then Buffy starts trying to hurt Angel on purpose, using things she knows hurts him the most, like his past, and his feelings for her, deliberately attempting to cause him the most pain. What kind of a cruel, piece of shit human being does that to someone who clearly isn't trying to do the same, to someone they claim to love? There's no excuse for it.

---------- Post added at 02:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:39 AM ----------

It's not a matter of Angel deserving Buffy. Buffy doesn't deserve Angel.
 
Angel defended himself. Buffy hit him first and was about strike him a second time when he decided to not take it. Then suddenly she goes all feeble and girly and acts like he had no right to defend himself against her. Like, what? He's just supposed to let her beat on him?

---------- Post added at 02:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:25 AM ----------

Then Buffy starts trying to hurt Angel on purpose, using things she knows hurts him the most, like his past, and his feelings for her, deliberately attempting to cause him the most pain. What kind of a cruel, piece of shit human being does that to someone who clearly isn't trying to do the same, to someone they claim to love? There's no excuse for it.

---------- Post added at 02:43 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:39 AM ----------

It's not a matter of Angel deserving Buffy. Buffy doesn't deserve Angel.

Yes, Angel "defended himself" but you and I both know it was more like "fine hit me, I'll hit you too" because Buffy didn't hit him that hard.

Yes, Buffy tried to hurt Angel with what hurt most... because when she walked in it looked like he had done that to her without trying.

I'm on Buffy's side in Sanctuary. Angel was jerk. Yes, there was reason for that... but he was a jerk.
 
Yes, Angel "defended himself" but you and I both know it was more like "fine hit me, I'll hit you too" because Buffy didn't hit him that hard.

Yes, Buffy tried to hurt Angel with what hurt most... because when she walked in it looked like he had done that to her without trying.

I'm on Buffy's side in Sanctuary. Angel was jerk. Yes, there was reason for that... but he was a jerk.

I honestly don't see what Angel did wrong.

There are several issues here. Firstly, there is the 'what to do with Faith?' issue. Unfortunately, neither Buffy nor Angel have specific jurisdiction when it comes to such matters. Just because Buffy's a Slayer she has no more authority to deal with the situation than Angel. So unless, one thinks that Angel was wrong to help Faith (keeping in mind that subsequent to that Faith actually helped both on Ats and Btvs), then I'm not going to say that he did the wrong thing in that scenario.

The next is the Angel hitting Buffy. Considering how shocked Angel looked, I don't think he was hitting her in retaliation and even if he were, to echo Angel himself, Buffy started it and for the record, Buffy was about to hit him again and Buffy is the stronger of the two.

In the end, I actually applaud Angel for standing up to Buffy. In the end when Faith finally sought redemption, it was a case of 'problem solved' but Buffy seemed to take it as a personal slight when it actually wasn't about her. Angel actually wanted to talk to her in a rational manner, she wasn't willing to listen. What was he supposed to do? Say screw Faith and let Buffy undo what he was trying to do in that episode?

I love Buffy to pieces and I totally understand her feelings at the time. It's not a clear cut situation because LA is Angel's turf so to speak but it's also unrealistic to think she would automatically step aside after what Faith did to her, but in the end, she should have trusted Angel, considering he was proven right by the end of the episode. In all fairness, Buffy was just annoyed and needed to vent. After she had time to cool down, she could see it from his perspective (as seen in Yoko Factor), but I don't think Angel did anything wrong.
 
Hmm, I think the original question is unfairly put, and I think they both are equally responsible for many of the down points of their uneasy relationship. On other hand, I find the notion that they should stay away from each other 'because there is always a tragic fallout to their every attempt at being together', ludicrous. Like every other relationship Buffy was in turned out any better. At the very least, with Angel she had experienced such incredible levels of pure happiness that at her darkest moments she was able to lean back on these memories and have them carry her through. Who else was capable of helping her survive her mother's death and stay whole? To whom else did she turn first when ripped from Heaven? Same applies to Angel - does not matter where he is on his journey, his love for Buffy is one solid cornerstone of his life that cannot be broken. The story is all rounded around these two and does not matter what, it always comes back to redefining and strengthening their connection. Giving advice on who else is good or bad for them in this case is pointless - because these two already have something that transcends everything, therefore everything else is either doomed or will turn to be a pale shadow of their connection. Blame Joss if you wish , but there is no breaking this paradigm, because this is his story and that's how he choose to write it. Trying to change these dynamics is like asking for Juliette to sober up and marry her noble fiancee - there is a common sense in it, but on the epic scale of things the tragedy will turn into a cheap parody if she does.
 
If you really love someone you don't hurt them deliberately. She also physically assaulted him and then actually had the audacity to get angry when he defended himself. And not only did she never apologize for these things, but she actually expected an apology from him. That's not love.

If only the definitions of love were that simple and straight forward! If I recall you are a Cangel shipper, right? (Before I continue I'm making it known that I love Cordy. That is no secret. After Buffy and Angel she is my favourite character. I just wanted to say that so that you don't think I'm ragging on your girl, cuz she is my girl too 😉 )

Anyway, the point of bringing up Cordy was to highlight how both she and Angel hurt each other. Sometimes terribly so. Despite that i don't think anyone can dispute how clearly they loved each other. How sincere and true that love for each other was. Personally, they were my favourite friendship in the verse ever. Given your ship, you see their love in quite a different way then I, but we can both agree that they were as dear to each other as two people can be? And they managed to hurt each other anyway. Sometimes even selfishly so.

I see Buffy's actions in this episode in the same way. While what she does is hardly commendable, it is not so heinous that her love and affection for Angel could be called into question. If anything, I think this episode highlights beautifully how much Buffy and Angel clearly still mean to each other.

This topic has come up several times so I'll just repost my answer from this thread, since my opinion on the matter has not changed in the least.

As a Bangel I truly love Sanctuary. Really, I think it is a very important moment for the two of them and I also think they are both justified in their reactions.

For Buffy, it was a very trying and confusing situation. Faith had just wrecked havoc in her life (again) but more than that she intimately violated Buffy and her relationship. God only knows what was going through her mind. Faith slept with Riley and Buffy must have wondered if she had slept with anyone else too. Is there going to be health issues associated with it? STD's, STI's and pregnancy would all be considerations (one I think the show should have spent some time on). On an emotional level Buffy was reeling from the fact that her own boyfriend could not tell her apart from a mentally unstable murder. That really and truly bothered Buffy and I always got the impression that she felt that if had been Angel, he would have known the difference. So imagine her shock and genuine hurt when she walks down those steps and sees Angel comforting Faith? Imagine how deeper it cut when she questions if he knows what she did to her and Angel says he does, and that it isn't important to him. Saving Faith's soul his. Saving her is more important than Buffy. That is such a huge smack in the face. A few months earlier Buffy was his entire existence. Selfishly or not, Buffy must have been devastated.

From Angel's point of view it isn't much better. It is only a couple of months since IWRY and now Faith is telling him that Buffy has a new boyfriend that she is sleeping with. Dagger to the heart much? I can only imagine what it must have been like for him to stand in that apartment with Buffy and have all those memories so fresh in his mind. I think there was definitely a part of him that hoped that despite it all, she would keep her promise and remember what they shared. I can certainly understand him being hurt by her not remembering, as irrational as that was. Away from there relationship though, Angel has made something for himself in L.A. Something that is bigger than him and their relationship and he is reveling in it. This is something that he is good at and he believes in. I can totally understand his stance on the work he was doing and how strongly he defended it.

So, here we have it, the two of them coming together and trying desperately to figure out where they stand with each other now. They get caught in miscommunication and they lash out. Buffy's a fighter, she will always lash out before you can hurt her. It's survival. So they say these horrible, cruel and untruthful things to each other. I can understand that because at the very heart of this episode is two people who love each other dearly, but finding themselves in new and unfamiliar stage of their relationship have no idea who or what to be to each other. It isn't pretty but it is incredibly honest.
 
brinkster130
brinkster130
Your post warms my Bangel heart! ::heart::
VisionGirl
VisionGirl
Loooove this! You are the queen of Bangel, Kean! :D
Anyway, the point of bringing up Cordy was to highlight how both she and Angel hurt each other. Sometimes terribly so. Despite that i don't think anyone can dispute how clearly they loved each other. How sincere and true that love for each other was. Personally, they were my favourite friendship in the verse ever. Given your ship, you see their love in quite a different way then I, but we can both agree that they were as dear to each other as two people can be? And they managed to hurt each other anyway. Sometimes even selfishly so.
But, ya see, Angel and Cordy weren't in love in those moments. They were friends. And friends sometimes have issues. But, even then, I never saw them go for jugular in eachother the way that Buffy did in Sanctuary. Even in Offspring she doesn't attack his vampirism or his feelings at all. She attacks him being a man. It's not a deep cut. It's a pretty shallow one in fact.
 
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