Does anyone else hate Fred?

I hate Fred about as much as I wanna see Buffy and Giles make out. As far as I'm concerned she's one of the stronger female characters in the Buffyverse. The reason that she held onto that innocence for so long is because she was tortured and hunted in a hell dimension for five years; you don't see her pulling a Connor and whining to every one in ear shot. Her experience in Pylea caused great mental anguish; leading to a regression to a somewhat childlike state.

When Gunn's old crew attacks Caritas she stands up for Angel and threatens to put a crossbow bolt through a guys neck. When Wes and Gunn are both hit with the whammy and become violent; she puts them down hard. The only person ever in my opinion to give back to Angelus's sharp tongue as good as he gave.

Oh and the whole she's super adorable, smart and hot thing. My only criticism to Fred would be.

"Babe, put down the taco and switch to some super-nachos, fill out some of those curves."

There is only one female character I didn't like on either show....Tara Maclay. Don't get me wrong, I adored Amber Benson; but I was unsatisfied about what they did with her character.

She was brought on as Willow's girlfriend; hung around for two seasons yet her only development was breaking up and then getting back together with Willow. I guess I saw her as being a real salt of the earth kind of woman and I was expecting them to eventually show her power as rivaling Willow's.
 
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prophecygrrl
I love Tara, but I agree that plotline with Willow would've been interesting!
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ElmoHasAGun
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Gotham
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Fred was overrated, so was her death and Illyria is way overrated as well.

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I'm no fan of Fred. I was at the beginning but then she got in between Wesley and Gunn's close friendship and I never forgive her since.
 
Litheran
Litheran
My shock and hurt from what you have just said is soothed greatly by that smoking hot picture of Anyanka. Me thinks I am a bad bad man and some vengeance is warranted.
Litheran... I disagree with you about Tara. I also used to think she had poor character development, but a friend of mine🙂p) showed me the light!

You see... she starts as this really quiet and shy girl. She stutters all the time, never speaks her mind. Now in Hush, she meets Willow for the first time, and she ends up helping Willow with her(powerful) magic to barricade themselves. The next few episodes shows her getting more comfortable around Willow and magic as a whole, they do spells and she offers a crystal to Will. In 'Goodbye Iowa' her character gets a little bit more complex when we see her purposedly sabotage the spell Willow is trying to do to locate demons. A couple episodes later, Oz comes back and Tara who had slowly started becoming more confident in herself, drops back a step or two when she thinks Willow might just get back with Oz. You can see her start stuttering again in front of him, and pretty much until the end of the episode she seems unconfident that her relationship with Willow will continue(probably because she's afraid that Willow will go with the *normal* girl/boy relationship). To her surprise though, Will picks her and I think it really gave her a huge boost of confidence on the long run. 🙂

In 'Real Me', time has passed and Tara has gotten even more confident. She actually comforts Dawn when she feels left out and explains to Willow how it is to be an *outsider*. For me, in that scene Tara showed maturity and wisdom(which she most likely already had), that we had not really seen before due to her usually quiet and timid approach. 'Family' finally brought us a Tara centered episode. In it, we see her family for the first time and realize(by her attitude and renewed stutter) that they probably had an important part to play in her shy and fragile demeanor. She meets up with her dad at her place and we find out that Tara has some demon in her(which explain why she sabotaged Willow's spell back then), and that it will be revealed on her 20th birthday. Willow comes in after Tara's dad left and for a rare time Tara actually throws a fit about how it isn't always about Will and her friends. At the end of this episode, Buffy and the others stand up for her against her blood family and it's another boost of confidence for her. So much that she stands up against the man who demeaned and belittled her(who also happens to be her dad, mind ya!) and tells him to leave. To me, that is one of the main scene where Tara's character develop.

Later on, in 'The Body', we see Tara comforting somebody again - this time Buffy -, she explains how she felt when her mother died and right there we get some more character development(I'm just sad that we never found out how exactly her mom passed away). In the next episode 'Forever', we again see the wise and confident Tara when she tells both Dawn and Willow that magic can't be used to alter the natural order of things, such as life and death. Would the shy and introverted Tara have spoken so openly if she had not grown by that time? 😉

Another episode where we get some more development for Tara is 'Tough Love'. First, she reveals to Willow that she's concerned about her improved power, and then that she has some fears that Will might not be satisfied dating a woman anymore. This lead to a fight and Willow leaves. Around the middle of the episode, Tara goes to the cultural fair where she is surprised by Glory on a bench. In that scene she shows unbelievable courage when she refuses to reveal the key's identity even though it will lead to her own demise(poor Tara 🙁), yet again expanding on her development.

Next, season six. In her last season on the show, Tara goes on to develop even more. She starts showing even more concerns toward Willow's frivolous use of magic. Thus leading to the scene in 'All The Way' where they argue and Willow rudely imply that she should keep her mouth shut. Tara again shows her improved self-respect by telling Willow off and leaving. In 'OMWF' and 'Tabula Rasa' Tara finds out that her girlfriend used a spell on her, betraying her trust and she only accepts to stay with her because Willow promises that she won't use magic for a week. This sadly doesn't happen and when another Willow's spell ends up wrong, Tara breaks up with her and leave.

Later on in 'Dead Things', we see a new development for Tara. Buffy actually talks to her in private and confide to her about Spike. She looks up about the spell and report to Buffy that she didn't came back wrong, which leads to Buffy crying her heart out and revealing that it has gotten very serious with Spike. Here we see Tara(the used to be shy and unconfident girl) comforting the Slayer. Buffy feels trustful enough of Tara to confide in her what is probably the darkest secret she had at the time... If that isn't development for Tara in regards to the others, I don't know what it is. 😉

We see Tara's compassion and loyalty again when in 'Older And Far Away' she sticks up for Willow's own rights to choose if she will use magic or not. That after Willow abused her and pretty much acted like a crazy overdosed junkie in the previous episodes... God, that makes me love Tara so much. 🙂 Anyway, in her last two episodes(Entropy and Seeing Red), Tara finally gets back with Willow and things seems to be getting better and better until her untimely death, which left us wanting for more.

I personally would have liked to see a darker side to Tara, and maybe that could have been explored in season 7 if she had not been killed. But overall, I think going from that shy girl in 'Hush' to the confident and loveable woman in 'Seeing Red' was quite a character development. I think it's just easy for people(including me the first time around)to not notice her changing through the show, simply because she is not the 'in your face' type. She's in the back, she's often quiet and we are less likely to pay attention to her. But, if we do, there's plenty of development, I tell ya!

So yea... That was pretty much out of topic, but I had to say this! Thanks to my friend for showing me the light about Tara. 😉
 
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Username
*nodding in agreement*
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Ms.Trick
I think she was pretty much one step ahead of all the Scoobies! Great post!
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Zeppo
Wow, thorough walk-through. You've seen the light!
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msfantastico87
I love you. Lets make some babies :) I'm so proud of you for FINALLY realizing just how important to the Scoobies Tara was :)
I'm sorry all I heard was "Drop it Bitc*!"

Why make her stop stuttering if they still don't ever let her speak?

I loved the relationship between Tara and Dawn; other than that I don't think they really took the character anywhere. I might have sounded harsh of the character herself; I was trying to state that I didn't like the way she was underitilized. And Amber Benson herself has that kindergarten teacher look that makes you feel like a blanket taken fresh out of the luandry.
 
Let's leave the Tara discussions to threads concerning that and keep this to the topic of Fred, shall we?🙂
 
I know a lot of people like her, I already know all the imo lame reasons why they like her, I was looking to see other reasons why people DONT like her. Because I know their are others, sadly we are in the minority, but I'm not alone.

I agree she is totally over rated. Maybe if people didn't go on and on about how she is the best character when she clearly isnt, she wouldn't be so over rated. Or the fact that they dragged her stupid death out over three episodes when Cordy only got one, and in my opinion Fred only deserved one if that I mean she was still on the damn show. Or the fact that shes just an annoying lame character. For me their are so many reasons to hate Fred.

First of all, Fred isn't to blame for Cordy's possession, coma and death (lol) being glossed over - bad writing is. Cordelia shouldn't have been shipped off the way she was, but there's no need to take it out on Fred.

Secondly, things like Fred wearing pigtails and liking ice cream - which you complained about in your first post - aren't the end all and be all of her character. Even if you find her mannerisms annoying and off-putting, you should at least try to look beyond it. I personally don't see how the development of her character could inspire hate.
 
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no fred hate here
 
First of all, Fred isn't to blame for Cordy's possession, coma and death (lol) being glossed over - bad writing is. Cordelia shouldn't have been shipped off the way she was, but there's no need to take it out on Fred.

Secondly, things like Fred wearing pigtails and liking ice cream - which you complained about in your first post - aren't the end all and be all of her character. Even if you find her mannerisms annoying and off-putting, you should at least try to look beyond it. I personally don't see how the development of her character could inspire hate.

I do not blame Fred for Cordy's possession, coma, or death. What I said is that I think its unfair that Cordelia's death is overshadowed by Fred's death. Cordelia gets one episode and isn't even mourned by her friends. Fred is mourned for the rest of the series. That does make me hate fred. And yes that maybe irrational but most of my reasons are not irrational for hating her.

Its not that she wears pigtails and likes icecream, its that shes a 30 year old woman wearing pigtails. A 30 year old woman who acts like a 12 year old girl. They write her like a 12 year old girl but still make her sexy. That is what I have a problem with. The fact that Freds character plays to basically the pedophile in every man. If the ideal woman is a child in a woman's body I think that's disgusting.

From the very beginning Joss set Fred up to be the little girl, only she isn't. People compare her to Dawn, saying well Dawn acts that way too, but Dawn is a child. Fred is not. The first episodes Fred appears in, the pylea arc, are all named after the two stories 'Alice In Wonderland' and 'The Wizard of Oz' both are stories about a child roughly the age of 12 who gets lost in a strange land. Fred gets sucked into pylea, a strange land. The only difference being Fred unlike Dorothy and Alice is not 12 years old. She is a graduate student when she goes to pylea, she is at least 25.

If they had just made her act like a child because of the damage Pylea had on her it would be one thing, however they then chose to have her become the object of a love triangle. So they want us to believe she is both innocent and child-like but also irresistible. I'm sorry but when you think child you shouldn't think irresistible. That's wrong. If Fred is the ideal woman then that says a lot about what is wrong with society.

Also because I know its going to come up. "Fred acted that way because of the damaging effects of Pylea" No. In the flashback in 'A Whole in the World' Fred is shown with her parents and she acts the same way she always does. She's clutching a little bunny doll and talking in that same incredibly childish tone. The damage pylea had on her was that she was afraid to re-assimilate to the outside world (ex. leaving her room or even the hotel) but her personality seemed to be mostly unaffected.

That is my main reason for hating Fred. Yes her accent and rambling annoys me but that is why I hate her.
 
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zobothehobo
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Spikefan31
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If they had just made her act like a child because of the damage Pylea had on her it would be one thing, however they then chose to have her become the object of a love triangle. So they want us to believe she is both innocent and child-like but also irresistible. I'm sorry but when you think child you shouldn't think irresistible. That's wrong. If Fred is the ideal woman then that says a lot about what is wrong with society.

More like what's wrong with Joss. He seems to adore characters like Willow and Fred. Nothing wrong with that per se (I adore Willow too and like Fred) but it comes off as a bit condescending as they are in each of his shows (cough, River, cough), all the other characters virtually worship them (well, not so much with later seasons Willow but at that point the innocent victim role seemed to have been taken over by Tara and Dawn anyway) and whatever mistakes they do are quickly forgotten and forgiven. I wouldn't go as far as compare it pandering to pedophiles, though. It's annoying to me mostly not because of what those characters are but how the rest of the characters treat them. It's like Joss can't fathom the possibility of someone not adoring Fred or Willow.
 
More like what's wrong with Joss. He seems to adore characters like Willow and Fred. Nothing wrong with that per se (I adore Willow too and like Fred) but it comes off as a bit condescending as they are in each of his shows (cough, River, cough), all the other characters virtually worship them (well, not so much with later seasons Willow but at that point the innocent victim role seemed to have been taken over by Tara and Dawn anyway) and whatever mistakes they do are quickly forgotten and forgiven. I wouldn't go as far as compare it pandering to pedophiles, though. It's annoying to me mostly not because of what those characters are but how the rest of the characters treat them. It's like Joss can't fathom the possibility of someone not adoring Fred or Willow.

I thinks its much more with Fred then Willow though. Fred is like Joss' golden character. Shes clearly one of his favorites. I do agree it reflects a lot on Joss though and badly. That character definitely does nothing for empowering women, quite the opposite in fact.

I don't get the comparison though between Fred/Willow though. Willow acted like a child when she was teenager. She grew out of that though long before she was even close to Fred's age.

I think it is appropriate though to make the connection. I'm not saying that pedophiles watch the show and adore Fred. I'm saying that the character plays to societies desire for this young childlike woman. It connects back to the whole "Who's your daddy?" theme, men want to act like the father? How is that not creepy? If that is really what men want I find that disturbing.
 
brinkster130
brinkster130
True, We did see Willow mature as she got older.
I don't get the comparison though between Fred/Willow though. Willow acted like a child when she was teenager. She grew out of that though long before she was even close to Fred's age.

Well, Fred is older, sure, but Willow certainly has some cringeworthy scenes like begging Tara for a bedtime story using the most childish voice possible in "Family". To this day I wonder what possessed Joss to write this dialogue in a scene that's obviously supposed to be romantic and as sexy as the WB censors would allow for W/T. Willow keeps much of her cutesy mannerisms to the very end of BtVS.

I think it is appropriate though to make the connection. I'm not saying that pedophiles watch the show and adore Fred. I'm saying that the character plays to societies desire for this young childlike woman. It connects back to the whole "Who's your daddy?" theme, men want to act like the father? How is that not creepy?

It can be creepy, sure (see the example above) but pedophilia's isn't really the right term for the situation, IMO. Wanting to be the proverbial knight in shining armor for Fred isn't at all the same as being pedophile. Sexist - sure can be so. Creepy at times (cough, Wesley in S5, cough), yes. Pedophilia. Nah.

Now, if Fred was indeed mentally on the level of 10 year old, instead being overly cutesy often and tending to babble and talk to herself, then there would have been more of a case. But she is a genius scientist and has a ruthless streak we see from time to time. Which is exactly why I get so annoyed when the rest of the cast treats her as if she is some innocent silly princess who must be shielded from the realities of the world.
 
I thinks its much more with Fred then Willow though. Fred is like Joss' golden character. Shes clearly one of his favorites. I do agree it reflects a lot on Joss though and badly. That character definitely does nothing for empowering women, quite the opposite in fact.

I don't get the comparison though between Fred/Willow though. Willow acted like a child when she was teenager. She grew out of that though long before she was even close to Fred's age.

I think it is appropriate though to make the connection. I'm not saying that pedophiles watch the show and adore Fred. I'm saying that the character plays to societies desire for this young childlike woman. It connects back to the whole "Who's your daddy?" theme, men want to act like the father? How is that not creepy? If that is really what men want I find that disturbing.

How is Fred Joss' golden character? I don't get it. As for the rest you said Katie, you know what I think about it. It's not because a woman acts cute or childish sometimes that it suddenly make the guys who loves her pedophiles, lol. Like Icarium mentioned, Willow had some childish moments too. Also, Gunn played along with Fred when they were together. Honestly, I don't think it's a big deal. They're not all proper and mature, but it doesn't harm anybody. They're having fun!

It's just like the whole thing with Buffy/Angel in Becoming. You're seeing things that aren't there.

Alright, I'm done ranting!
 
Well, Fred is older, sure, but Willow certainly has some cringeworthy scenes like begging Tara for a bedtime story using the most childish voice possible in "Family". To this day I wonder what possessed Joss to write this dialogue in a scene that's obviously supposed to be romantic and as sexy as the WB censors would allow for W/T. Willow keeps much of her cutesy mannerisms to the very end of BtVS.

Have you never heard of people "baby talking" to their spouses? My mom and her husband do it all the time. Does it mean either one of them is childish or immature? No. It's "cutesy" stuff. That's it.

And what is wrong with women who have cutesy mannerisms? Being a strong woman doesn't mean you're not cute. "Cutesy" is only bad IMO when it's coupled with stupidity. Willow was ALWAYS portrayed as very intelligent, to quote Tara, a "brainy type." There is nothing wrong with being cute.

My issue with Fred is not that she's cute... It's that she's literally got the emotional maturity of a 12 year old. I don't see the Willow/Fred comparison at all because Willow seems to mature at a normal rate and is right on target for her age. Fred is much more immature than Willow and she's much older.
 
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xfivebyfive
I agree she has the emotional maturity of a 12 year old perfectly said :D
I usually have no problems whatsoever with Willow's baby talking or cutesy mannerisms. And I generally absolutely adore Willow, Tara and Willow/Tara. But that particular scene is just creepy.
 
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zobothehobo
I thought it was cute. It made me go "awww"
How is Fred Joss' golden character? I don't get it. As for the rest you said Katie, you know what I think about it. It's not because a woman acts cute or childish sometimes that it suddenly make the guys who loves her pedophiles, lol. Like Icarium mentioned, Willow had some childish moments too. Also, Gunn played along with Fred when they were together. Honestly, I don't think it's a big deal. They're not all proper and mature, but it doesn't harm anybody. They're having fun!

It's just like the whole thing with Buffy/Angel in Becoming. You're seeing things that aren't there.

Alright, I'm done ranting!

I didn't say it makes them a pedophile. In fact I flat out said that I don't think that. I said that her character plays to the pedophile in every man. The way society has made it ok for men to want a childlike woman. Since she is not a child no they are not pedophiles. And I never said they were. But the fact that this woman who in all aspects acts, talks and dresses like a 12 year old but is still a 30 year old woman and is desired by most of the men on the show is disturbing.

I'm not seeing things that aren't there Tom. Stop focusing on half my argument lol. Bangel has nothing to do with this discussion.

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Spikefan31 agrees: Haha. Your sig is ironic.

Lmao Blame MsFantastico87 its her fault! I can change it now though yay!
 
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Spikefan31
Haha. Your sig is ironic. :D
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msfantastico87
no you can't change it until monday :p
I didn't say it makes them a pedophile. In fact I flat out said that I don't think that. I said that her character plays to the pedophile in every man. The way society has made it ok for men to want a childlike woman. Since she is not a child no they are not pedophiles. And I never said they were. But the fact that this woman who in all aspects acts, talks and dresses like a 12 year old but is still a 30 year old woman and is desired by most of the men on the show is disturbing.

I'm not seeing things that aren't there Tom. Stop focusing on half my argument lol. Bangel has nothing to do with this discussion.

Again, it's not because she acts cutesy or have pigtails that she's to be seen as a childlike woman. But I know I'll never convince you on all of this, so. 🙄 And yes, that Bangel scene had to do with it, because there too you make up things from thin air. He saw her heart, I tell you! 🙁
 
But the fact that this woman who in all aspects acts, talks and dresses like a 12 year old but is still a 30 year old woman and is desired by most of the men on the show is disturbing.

All aspects? Exaggeration much?

I didn't say it makes them a pedophile. In fact I flat out said that I don't think that. I said that her character plays to the pedophile in every man.

So you think there is pedophile in every man? Gee, thanks a lot...
 
I 100% completely disagree with this post. Fred was amazing. She made the show so much better. She added a lot off happiness and quirkiness which made the show much more lighter. She had an innocence to her that no other character on the show had.

FRED IS EPIC!
 
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xfivebyfive
Lol your misuse of the word Epic saddens me lmao :p
Tome
Tome
Go Fred!
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msfantastico87
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Sommers Summers
Definitely. Fred was the standout in the series, IMO.
All aspects? Exaggeration much?

No I don't think I am exaggerating. Aside from being extremely book smart Fred acts exactly like a little girl. Yes she does get better as the seasons progress and by the final season she acts much more her age. But particularly in season 3 she is a child in a womans body.

So you think there is pedophile in every man? Gee, thanks a lot...

Taking my words a little literally dont you think? I don't think that inside every man there is a pedophile. But society has made it ok for men to want women who act and dress like children. Now obviously this doesn't apply to every man though.

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Again, it's not because she acts cutesy or have pigtails that she's to be seen as a childlike woman. But I know I'll never convince you on all of this, so. 🙄 And yes, that Bangel scene had to do with it, because there too you make up things from thin air. He saw her heart, I tell you! 🙁

I am not making things up from thin air Tom. I'm not even the only one who sees this and definitely not the only one who thinks that for Bangel. But that is a debate for another thread.
 
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Brandonxx93
Your dislike for a great character disgusts me. :P
No I don't think I am exaggerating. Aside from being extremely book smart Fred acts exactly like a little girl. Yes she does get better as the seasons progress and by the final season she acts much more her age. But particularly in season 3 she is a child in a womans body.

But season 5 is arguably the height of the Fred-worship mania, so following your reasoning she is more desirable when she is more mature. Also, saying "aside from..." is a bit like saying "well, aside from saving the world and having friends, Buffy is exactly like Cordelia". And not really true, anyway. Even in S3 Fred has moments like giving the cold shoulder to Wesley after he kidnapped Connor, dealing with her parents or with Wesley when he was possessed by the touch of Billie, etc.

Now obviously this doesn't apply to every man though.

So why did you use the phrase "every man", then?
 
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