Does anyone else hate Fred?

[zobothehobo]

I'm finally going to put my quick 2 cents in. I will start by saying that I haven't seen all of Angel but I've seen enough of Fred and read enough to know that I love her. In all honesty, she's my favourite character on the show (aside from Spike in season 5 and Cordy comes pretty close too). Ice Cream is awesome and every character has flaws. But you can't love a character unless you love or at least try to understand their flaws because we all have them too. I find her childish-ness endearing and interesting. I like people like that. Who cares about her age? Who wants to grow up really? And she was doing just fine.

I love Illyria also.

This post reminded me... I didn't dislike her until my second watch. The first watch I thought she was cute. I remember being upset at her death.. really worried. Then I watched again and I remembered how upset I was with her death more than I did loving her, but I thought since I was upset with her death, she must have been truly fantastic and being REALLY disappointed. She ended up just pissing me off the whole time. I felt really bad for Gunn and Wes, and lost respect for both of them for the way they pined and fought over her. She was just not a fantastic character when I re-watched.

 

[Jay Jade]

I love Fred. She was amazing.

We first truly saw her on screen as an alone, Pylean girl who was trying her hardest to find a way out of there.

We saw her emerge from that Pylean girl to the Head of the Science Division at Wolfram and Hart.

She was Fred.

I see nothing wrong with pigtails or getting excited over ice cream. Who doesn't like ice cream?

I love how Season Five made her really evolve though, she probably felt she fit in more with every other scientist with her.

Fred was alone in Pylea for five fricken years where they killed her kind and were slaves to the demons. I'd be pretty upset if that happened to me. What happened with her and Gunn after he killed the professor was all up to her. If she had done it herself, she probably would have felt much stronger than she was before.

Her accent didn't bother me at all, and I didn't think of her as all that childish for what she liked. She was strong at times, and in Fredless, she was worried that all that happened after Pylea was all a dream, she thought she was killed after all, that she never made it out, never saw the real world again, and was scared and cried in her parents arms.

Now, I love how she had evolved into Illyria, the way Amy portrayed her...just brilliant. Again, Fred - small Pylean girl, to Illyria - kick ass blue chick. Illyria was amazing for me, and I never thought Fred was really gone, her soul was still probably there somehow, she was trying hard not to let go, and was probably really grateful about the fact Wesley was there was her and was the last thing she saw and loved, just as she was the last thing he saw and loved.

What Illyria did for Wesley in Not Fade Away earned my respect for her despite what she had done to Fred. The way Illyria was 'lying' to Wesley couldn't have been just Illyria, what happened sounded a lot like Fred to me.

Now, yeah, there were sometimes Fred worried me and made me not like her for a split second, but there has never been a moment for me when I hated her completely. I liked Fred, I liked Illyria, I liked Amy.

However, she made me upset when it took her so long to get with Wesley, I was never much for her and Gunn...😛

Fred was beautiful, and didn't mean to split Wesley and Gunn so far apart, and bet she felt too much in the middle.

But once again, Fred was just herself.

 

[Scarlett Blade]

I never thought much of her actually...I just kind of brushed her off as a secondary character. The one time when she really bothered me is after the whole Gunn/professor thing, I hated her for awhile after that. Than I just went back to my indifferent attitude towards her. But in season 5, I could see why other people liked her. She wasn't just an annoying little girl anymore, she was letting her intulectual side show more instead of her childish one.

 

[Selfless705]

I honestly don't get thinking she is the best character on the show especially when you have Cordelia and angel on the sho. But I can I understand why people like her.

Not wanting to grow up is one thing. I can understand that. But acting like an oversexualized child is another. If the writers wanted to have her play a twelve year when shes actually thirty (which is creepy enough) then dont have her also be the sexual object for the men of the show.

Thats my main issue with Fred. But I also just find her incredibly annoying.

I get that she acts very childlike in the first half of season 3 but I think this is excellent writing, because it is showing how she is adapting to being back in the human world after being in this "hell" dimension for a human.

However, I don't think she acts childlike at all after she has restated herself in this world. Calling her and "over-sexualized child" is, in my opinion, completely wrong. She is not sexualized in nearly anyway at all, and she is the "sexual object of the men" because she is gorgeous and smart and cute, which I don't think is childlike of or sexualizing her at all.

Even if I was to agree that she was childlike in the whole of season 3, she still epitomizes how people grow in the show, she turned from this childlike, shy and very unsociable girl into, firstly a person who can be in a committed relationship (with Gunn), then a person who can face pretty much an army of the world for what she knows is right (The Jasmine storyline), and finally an in charge, highly professional boss in season 5. Calling her childlike in these situations is really just completely incorrect.

I understand why some people don't like her as everyone has different tastes, however, I don't agree with any of the statements you made in your second paragraph.

 

[Goby]

What Illyria did for Wesley in Not Fade Away earned my respect for her despite what she had done to Fred. The way Illyria was 'lying' to Wesley couldn't have been just Illyria, what happened sounded a lot like Fred to me.

SEASON 5 ANGEL SPOILER ALERT!!


That moment made me cry like a baby. Joss is good at that. What a scene, and the way Amy and Alexis played it.... wow. What was amazing is that I didn't see it coming... I stayed away from Season 5 spoilers and was rewarded by one of the most amazing scenes in the entire Whedonverse. When Alexis say "lie to me know"

Not Fade Away is my favorite episode of Angel, and one of my favorite episodes of any show. A huge part of that comes from Illyria/Fred/Joss/Amy Acker.

Seriously... how can you NOT love this? And if you really love Fred, you really, really love this scene. And I love Fred.


ILLYRIA: Wesley. This wound is mortal.
WESLEY: Aren't we all? (smiles) It was good... that you came.
ILLYRIA: I killed all mine, and I was...
WESLEY: Concerned?
ILLYRIA: I think so. But I can't help. You'll be dead within moments.
WESLEY: I know.
ILLYRIA: Would you like me to lie to you now? (Note: this is when my tears start)
WESLEY: Yes. Thank you. Yes.
(he closes his yes, and when he opens them, Illyria looks like Fred)
WESLEY: (fondly) Hello there.
FRED: (trying to smile through her tears) Oh, Wesley. My Wesley.
WESLEY: Fred. I've missed you.
(kisses his lips twice gently, sniffles, kisses his forehead)
FRED: It's gonna be OK. It won't hurt much longer, and then you'll be where I am. (crying) We'll be together.
WESLEY: I-I love you.
FRED: I love you. My love. Oh, my love.

Wesley dies.

 

[OhWow]

I liked Fred. Personally, I liked her accent. Perhaps she was childish at first but she grew like any other character and by S5 she was quite independent.

The time when Gunn killed the professor, I thought that was pretty lame in general. They both annoyed me then.

Plus being in Pylea must have sucked...

 

[xfivebyfive]

I get that she acts very childlike in the first half of season 3 but I think this is excellent writing, because it is showing how she is adapting to being back in the human world after being in this "hell" dimension for a human.

However, I don't think she acts childlike at all after she has restated herself in this world. Calling her and "over-sexualized child" is, in my opinion, completely wrong. She is not sexualized in nearly anyway at all, and she is the "sexual object of the men" because she is gorgeous and smart and cute, which I don't think is childlike of or sexualizing her at all.

Even if I was to agree that she was childlike in the whole of season 3, she still epitomizes how people grow in the show, she turned from this childlike, shy and very unsociable girl into, firstly a person who can be in a committed relationship (with Gunn), then a person who can face pretty much an army of the world for what she knows is right (The Jasmine storyline), and finally an in charge, highly professional boss in season 5. Calling her childlike in these situations is really just completely incorrect.

I understand why some people don't like her as everyone has different tastes, however, I don't agree with any of the statements you made in your second paragraph.

She acts like a child through out the entire series. Yes she does grow up a bit particularly in season 5 but it is just how she is because they show a flash back in a whole in the world and she is exactly the same, this grown woman clutching her doll.

They do sexualize her. This point is mostly about season 3 though. But somewhat season 4. They make her the object of Gunn and Wes' affection. While at the same time they are portraying her as this child.

They are clearly trying to portray Fred as Dorothy from the wizard of oz, the lost child in a strange land, that whole arc is named after The Wizard of Oz and alice in wonderland (another lost little girl) only unlike Dorothy and alice, Fred is not twelve. Yet they continue to make Fred just like Dorothy and at the same time all the men idolize her because she is "hot" but yet she's childlike? hmmm seems creepy to me.

The other characters in the show are children when the shows starts. Buffy and the gang are all supposed to be sixteen when we first see them, so of course we will see the main characters age and progress like that. Fred however was a graduate student when she was taken to pylea which means she was around 25 she spent five years there. When we first see Fred she is 30 years old that is far from the young teens we see on btvs or even on angel, Gunn and Cordy are much younger then her. I know the focus on age is lost in the later seasons but to me it still affects how I view Freds character.

Its ok you don't agree with me, I dont agree with a lot of things people say about loving Fred lol 😛 Like how sweet and amazing she is. I just dont see it, I see an annoying bitca that ruined parts of my favorite show.

 

[prophecygrrl]

I liked Fred at first because I found her very sweet, in contrast to how dark AtS can be sometimes, but now...I don't like her as much. I agree that she IS incredibly sexualized and I hate how they put her in between Gunn and Wesley and shot down a really great friendship. The thing is, I blame the writers a lot for this one. Fred is supposed to be a survivor. She's incredibly smart, she lasted five years in Pylea all on her own, and she can kick ass when she needs to, like in Season 4 when she's a big part of uncovering the whole Jasmine thing. But the writers don't let her DO anything, and instead she's just the "wide-eyed innocent" most of the time. And she's inexplicably perfect. It's irritating. She could be a MUCH better character.

 

[Selfless705]

She acts like a child through out the entire series. Yes she does grow up a bit particularly in season 5 but it is just how she is because they show a flash back in a whole in the world and she is exactly the same, this grown woman clutching her doll.

They do sexualize her. This point is mostly about season 3 though. But somewhat season 4. They make her the object of Gunn and Wes' affection. While at the same time they are portraying her as this child.

They are clearly trying to portray Fred as Dorothy from the wizard of oz, the lost child in a strange land, that whole arc is named after The Wizard of Oz and alice in wonderland (another lost little girl) only unlike Dorothy and alice, Fred is not twelve. Yet they continue to make Fred just like Dorothy and at the same time all the men idolize her because she is "hot" but yet she's childlike? hmmm seems creepy to me.

The other characters in the show are children when the shows starts. Buffy and the gang are all supposed to be sixteen when we first see them, so of course we will see the main characters age and progress like that. Fred however was a graduate student when she was taken to pylea which means she was around 25 she spent five years there. When we first see Fred she is 30 years old that is far from the young teens we see on btvs or even on angel, Gunn and Cordy are much younger then her. I know the focus on age is lost in the later seasons but to me it still affects how I view Freds character.

Its ok you don't agree with me, I dont agree with a lot of things people say about loving Fred lol 😛 Like how sweet and amazing she is. I just dont see it, I see an annoying bitca that ruined parts of my favorite show.

I think i mistook what you meant by sexualize, as she is not portrayed sexually in the show, however, she is the love interest of Gunn and Wesley. I do also find the fact she split up the amazing bond between Gunn and Wesley quite annoying.

However, I think the appeal that Fred has to all her fans, me included, is that she really does grow the most out of characters, she is obviously very strong willed and we see this come out more and more as the show goes on.

I do see how the way she acts can be perceived as annoying, but I find the way she acts cute and it shows the innocence of her throughout the whole show. Which from what I have heard is meant to happen as she is the character who portrays everything that the AI is trying to protect.

 

[FetalPig]

I do also find the fact she split up the amazing bond between Gunn and Wesley quite annoying.

I don't think Fred did this. I think they did it to themselves (if anyone can take the 'credit' for it) but nobody really set out to do anything of the sort. It was pretty hindbrain stuff - not particularly conscious. Each of them tries to honour the others, in fact. All three of them felt an attraction and things had to resolve around that.

I don't see Fred as being particularly sexualised either. Somehow her tendency had always been to hide in her room or her books and this was pushed into overdrive in Pylea, yet she is still innocent, yet tough and unconsciously funny, yet remarkably egoless and my heart goes out to her. She wasn't motivated by sex but was happy with in her relationship with Gunn. Faith was sexualised - perhaps the only main character in the 'verse who acted from a sexual rather than a relationship perspective.

I think the problem with Fred having a happy sexual relationship with is in the idea that she might be meant to represent a 'child', but, yes, she is around 30 years old and has had a tendency to be bookish and scatty all her life. The challenge with Fred is to look past the surface and see who the person is. She has been through a crazy reality shift in Pylea, and then another one coming back to LA, and she has survived with her nerves somewhat jangled but her inner steel intact, and a special appreciation for humanity. As tough as the rest of the gang with different skills.

Go Fred!

 

[Goby]

I don't think Fred did this. I think they did it to themselves (if anyone can take the 'credit' for it) but nobody really set out to do anything of the sort. It was pretty hindbrain stuff - not particularly conscious. Each of them tries to honour the others, in fact. All three of them felt an attraction and things had to resolve around that.

I don't see Fred as being particularly sexualised either. Somehow her tendency had always been to hide in her room or her books and this was pushed into overdrive in Pylea, yet she is still innocent, yet tough and unconsciously funny, yet remarkably egoless and my heart goes out to her. She wasn't motivated by sex but was happy with in her relationship with Gunn. Faith was sexualised - perhaps the only main character in the 'verse who acted from a sexual rather than a relationship perspective.

I think the problem with Fred having a happy sexual relationship with is in the idea that she might be meant to represent a 'child', but, yes, she is around 30 years old and has had a tendency to be bookish and scatty all her life. The challenge with Fred is to look past the surface and see who the person is. She has been through a crazy reality shift in Pylea, and then another one coming back to LA, and she has survived with her nerves somewhat jangled but her inner steel intact, and a special appreciation for humanity. As tough as the rest of the gang with different skills.

Go Fred!

I agree with all of this.

I don't think they sexualized Fred. She did not wear low cut shirts, or mini skirts. She did not have one night stands. They did not show her have sex with Gunn, Wesley, or anyone else.

I "love" Fred because she's so darn cute. Because she's cute and geeky. What you those see as childish, I see as geeky. Men love hot geeky women, and they don't get much geekier or hotter than Fred.

I thought Fred and Gunn worked, and I understand the whole Professor issue. But I like Fred and Wesley even better.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

Interesting points of view. That made me think. Because we later on see Fred as Illyria. Not really her, but she has Fred's body, her shell. And I think Illyria is sort of sexual. Right, you never see her have sex with anyone, or seduces or anything, but she appears to be pretty sexy. Maybe that's her outfit or her stares, but I get the feeling they made Illyria as a mirror to Fred. She's NOT Fred. So it's like, she can be sexy. She can be what Fred isn't.

I don't know, that's one theory.

 

[BananaBuffy]

Goby agrees: If you don't know what happens to Fred in AtS Season 5, you really need to watch it ASAP!!

If you mean her death...I know...I cried when I found out but Illyria is cool! I'll admit now that the reason I haven't seen more than Angel season one and two is because of my mother who has a strange view on things like Angel and Buffy. She stopped me after Angel season two because she realized it was a lot darker than Buffy. But I've researched, read scripts, watched scenes and have a good idea of most things. I adore Fred, her death shocked and saddened me but yea, Illryia is pretty interesting and Amy Acker is a fantastic actress.

I will also take credit for bringing this thread back for it's short lived death.

I do relate to Fred, I like ice cream and I act like her sometimes (everybody likes ice cream, I note) and I think that's why I love her so much. I don't understand the Fred hate. Oh, and as for what my bestie [MENTION=10363]zobothehobo[/MENTION] has said on her Fred views...there's lots of things we disagree on but we're still bestest best buddies. 😛

---------- Post added at 04:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:29 PM ----------

Goby agrees: The bestest best buddies are those that can disagree on something as important as Fred and still be bestest best buddies.

You got it, mate! You know what the true meaning of friendship is, good on ya!

 

[prophecygrrl]

Fred wasn't overtly sexual the way, for example, Faith was, but I still think she was sexualized. The writers often infantilized her, and she's supposed to be a grown woman. I didn't like that. Infantilization is a form of objectification/sexualization too.

I'm not saying that being innocent or acting young-ish is a bad thing, it's the way it's portrayed that bothers me. It feels like she's not allowed to be more than that.

 

[Hale Caesar]

How can you hate Fred? Do you hate Oxygen too?

The writers did have a hard time finding her place in the show at first, but during season 4 I felt they really began to find her voice. Season 5 really does represent Fred at her best, iMO

 

[xfivebyfive]

How can you hate Fred? Do you hate Oxygen too?

The writers did have a hard time finding her place in the show at first, but during season 4 I felt they really began to find her voice. Season 5 really does represent Fred at her best, iMO

No im quite fond of Oxygen thank you.

I just hate Fred. I've stated why more then enough times in the thread.

 

[FetalPig]

Fred wasn't overtly sexual the way, for example, Faith was, but I still think she was sexualized. The writers often infantilized her, and she's supposed to be a grown woman. I didn't like that. Infantilization is a form of objectification/sexualization too.

I'm not saying that being innocent or acting young-ish is a bad thing, it's the way it's portrayed that bothers me. It feels like she's not allowed to be more than that.

Then i don't think i understand what you mean by sexualise or infantilise.

What is striking to me about this discussion is that some people watch the character of Fred and see the writers at work and some people see the character and accept the reality portrayed.

to me Fred is a believable and convincing character and when i watch i don't see the writing. It's an effort for me to get past her reality to the reality of a studio, writers lights etc.
There are other episodes/arcs/whatever in the 'verse where i don't have to make any effort all and can happily sit there saying to myself "WTF! why did they do that?" But not with Fred as a character.

 

[Icarium]

Then i don't think i understand what you mean by sexualise or infantilise.

Maybe this will help - http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Moe

And yes, I am aware the definition could hardly be any vaguer. 🙂 See the Whedon examples for a bit more clarity. It's a lot easier to get the idea if you watch anime because there characters like Fred are the norm, rather than an exception. Don't get me wrong, I like Fred but she is practically designed to be a nerd's wet dream. She doesn't need to get naked or wear skimpy clothing to achieve that. See also Rosenberg, Willow, a.k.a. the original version of Fred. 🙂

 

[This Year's Girl]

I wish that Fred could've been more than just that innocent, childlike girl. She had so much potential, but I feel like the writers never explored that enough. I don't hate her though. I liked that she was smart and nerdy. She just could've been so much more.

 

[LadyLavinia]

Hating Fred is like hating ice cream, candy, or sunshine.

Then I dislike all three.