Does anyone think Willow was forgiven too quickly in something blue?.
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thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
Okay, I asked you to stop, I tried being non-confrontational.
Nope, you did it in this very thread. Boy, you have a short memory.
No, no it it isn't. If you are quoting a person then YOU ARE RESPONDING TO THEM by definition. It really isn't that complicated. If you want to post your thoughts seperately to the wider board then...just post on a thread and reference arguments brought up with counter-arguments like any reasonable adult.
No, for the record, that's not the scummy part; its where you ended a discussion with a cruddy remark in my comments section saying that you do not want to EVER discuss things with me on these boards, basically you were posting in bad faith as a 'gotcha'.
Okay, I say, kinda juvenile but whatever, I understand pathological Spuffy syndrome when I see it, the feeling that when your ship is being 'attacked' then you, in turn, feel attacked and get mad/pissy or whatever. You lost your temper, never bothered with anything approaching a 'I apologize' or 'it got out of hand' or 'I took it too personally' anything.
So I move on and don't bother engaging any further, foolish even to try. then you do this out of nowhere with the same crappy and aggressive tone, not interested in discussion but instead- again- posting AT me in an imaged attempt at points scoring, I ask you to please stop and you pull the same 'cruddy remark in the comment section' with the 'awww shucks' bs.
Yeah, I got that, its hardly shining objective truth.
She has two parents, a roof over her head and she gets given gifts that are in accordance with her interests-personal PC in her room, laptop. There is nothing here for Giles to have concern over.
If anything it is 'benign neglect', nothing more. To quote Willow 'boo hoo' she's got it better than most.
Right, by that same token Buffy used her but she did it far more often. Hell, Buffy put Willow's life in danger by getting her to come on patrol.
4 times in two seasons as a recall. S3 with the smoke spell in 'The Zeppo', the 'disenchantment spell on the box in 'Choices', the truth spell in S4 (which she bails on) and an 'atmospherics' spell for Spike's chip. The 'merging spell' was Xander's idea and they all did it together.
But by S4 Willow is an adult and can say ;uh, no Giles, I don't feel comfortable doing that'. Sorry, I know that would be wildly out of character for our little deer-killing necromancer.
He does, by restricting access to proscribed texts and warning her, but she goes around his set boundaries often and has money enough to go to the Magic Box whenever she makes access to spell stuff.
Maybe the shop keeper could've been more discerning?
At the END of S2, which I already mentioned in my above post. Willow looked into Miss Calendar's wicca stuff of her own accord and offered to do the re-ensouling spell- her first- for Buffy.
Yeah, never let a crummy memory get in the way of a bad argument I say.
But in that episode Giles was actually surprised by Willow's admission that she can do the spell, and she has to explain how she came to know it AND he warns her in very explicit terms that it would 'open doors she might not be able to close'.
It doesn't matter to her because she is doing it for Buffy. He certainly didn't know, let alone encourage Willow's interest. In S3 he is clearly oblivious to her continued magic use and is certainly not encouraging her to go out on patrols or anything like that.
The rest of you supposed argument is simply making excuses and acting like Willow doesn't have her own drive, intellect and agency. She is perfectly capable of asking for help if she so chooses but she never does.
By S3 Choices Willow has come to the conclusion that she wants to 'fight the good fight' independent of what Buffy or Giles might want and from S4 both the older Oz and the more experienced Tara express concern towards Willow's use of magic; she, again, is dismissive and needs no such guidance in her view.
I simply think Giles misjudged Willow's character after she left high school and he didn't see her as often; thinking she was far more responsible and careful than she actually was.
I'll leave it at that. People on these threads want to discuss the show and characters, I won't disrupt things further.
Nope, you did it in this very thread. Boy, you have a short memory.
No, no it it isn't. If you are quoting a person then YOU ARE RESPONDING TO THEM by definition. It really isn't that complicated. If you want to post your thoughts seperately to the wider board then...just post on a thread and reference arguments brought up with counter-arguments like any reasonable adult.
No, for the record, that's not the scummy part; its where you ended a discussion with a cruddy remark in my comments section saying that you do not want to EVER discuss things with me on these boards, basically you were posting in bad faith as a 'gotcha'.
Okay, I say, kinda juvenile but whatever, I understand pathological Spuffy syndrome when I see it, the feeling that when your ship is being 'attacked' then you, in turn, feel attacked and get mad/pissy or whatever. You lost your temper, never bothered with anything approaching a 'I apologize' or 'it got out of hand' or 'I took it too personally' anything.
So I move on and don't bother engaging any further, foolish even to try. then you do this out of nowhere with the same crappy and aggressive tone, not interested in discussion but instead- again- posting AT me in an imaged attempt at points scoring, I ask you to please stop and you pull the same 'cruddy remark in the comment section' with the 'awww shucks' bs.
Yeah, I got that, its hardly shining objective truth.
She has two parents, a roof over her head and she gets given gifts that are in accordance with her interests-personal PC in her room, laptop. There is nothing here for Giles to have concern over.
If anything it is 'benign neglect', nothing more. To quote Willow 'boo hoo' she's got it better than most.
Right, by that same token Buffy used her but she did it far more often. Hell, Buffy put Willow's life in danger by getting her to come on patrol.
4 times in two seasons as a recall. S3 with the smoke spell in 'The Zeppo', the 'disenchantment spell on the box in 'Choices', the truth spell in S4 (which she bails on) and an 'atmospherics' spell for Spike's chip. The 'merging spell' was Xander's idea and they all did it together.
But by S4 Willow is an adult and can say ;uh, no Giles, I don't feel comfortable doing that'. Sorry, I know that would be wildly out of character for our little deer-killing necromancer.
He does, by restricting access to proscribed texts and warning her, but she goes around his set boundaries often and has money enough to go to the Magic Box whenever she makes access to spell stuff.
Maybe the shop keeper could've been more discerning?
At the END of S2, which I already mentioned in my above post. Willow looked into Miss Calendar's wicca stuff of her own accord and offered to do the re-ensouling spell- her first- for Buffy.
Yeah, never let a crummy memory get in the way of a bad argument I say.
But in that episode Giles was actually surprised by Willow's admission that she can do the spell, and she has to explain how she came to know it AND he warns her in very explicit terms that it would 'open doors she might not be able to close'.
It doesn't matter to her because she is doing it for Buffy. He certainly didn't know, let alone encourage Willow's interest. In S3 he is clearly oblivious to her continued magic use and is certainly not encouraging her to go out on patrols or anything like that.
The rest of you supposed argument is simply making excuses and acting like Willow doesn't have her own drive, intellect and agency. She is perfectly capable of asking for help if she so chooses but she never does.
By S3 Choices Willow has come to the conclusion that she wants to 'fight the good fight' independent of what Buffy or Giles might want and from S4 both the older Oz and the more experienced Tara express concern towards Willow's use of magic; she, again, is dismissive and needs no such guidance in her view.
I simply think Giles misjudged Willow's character after she left high school and he didn't see her as often; thinking she was far more responsible and careful than she actually was.
I'll leave it at that. People on these threads want to discuss the show and characters, I won't disrupt things further.
ILLYRIAN
Druish Pervonian Wizard
To @r2dh2
about your comment on my reply #18, Willow was the character I liked, mainly because she had red hair, I do like red hair. And Willow was a witch, I have long been into that way of life.
Willow was my first Avatar Darla being the second both of them are nice characters, mmm am I being sarcastic there?
about your comment on my reply #18, Willow was the character I liked, mainly because she had red hair, I do like red hair. And Willow was a witch, I have long been into that way of life.
Willow was my first Avatar Darla being the second both of them are nice characters, mmm am I being sarcastic there?
r2dh2
I don't know... are you ;)?
Willow does some very questionable things over the series', and granted the Something Blue spell is on a slippery slope, but I think it's the least worst.
She casts the spell originally on herself to make herself feel better, with no intent to hurt anyone, and there are no long term repercussions. That said, she's 19, hurting, and playing with real, potentially dangerous forces - why doesn't Giles, who has nothing much else to do, take a moment to teach her some things? They've heard how his youthful demon summoning got someone killed so he would be a clear voice of reason at this point, before she gets entirely power / control hungry.
Forgiving her quickly was entirely reasonable and kind, not offering her proper guidance afterwards was a massive oversight
She casts the spell originally on herself to make herself feel better, with no intent to hurt anyone, and there are no long term repercussions. That said, she's 19, hurting, and playing with real, potentially dangerous forces - why doesn't Giles, who has nothing much else to do, take a moment to teach her some things? They've heard how his youthful demon summoning got someone killed so he would be a clear voice of reason at this point, before she gets entirely power / control hungry.
Forgiving her quickly was entirely reasonable and kind, not offering her proper guidance afterwards was a massive oversight
Ethan Reigns
Scooby
I think everyone gets forgiven too quickly on this show, but that's too quickly to parallel what would happen in real life, not what has to happen on a show. In real life, some of the things various characters have done would get them expelled from the circle of friends and banished to the outer darkness. But if you want a story to continue with the same characters, you have to create drama of some kind then resolve it in such a way that everybody stays together. So yes, Willow is forgiven too quickly but so is everyone else and it is necessary unless you want to create a revolving door of people coming into and going out of Buffy's life.
From Something Blue to Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered to Helpless, one of the core scoobies does something that would normally be unforgivable but the show wanted to stay with the same cast and characters, so it all has to be forgiven.
From Something Blue to Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered to Helpless, one of the core scoobies does something that would normally be unforgivable but the show wanted to stay with the same cast and characters, so it all has to be forgiven.
Stake fodder
And she did make cookies for everyone, which is more than anyone else!
hoponlilmama
Scooby
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- 2,284
Agreed.
I think because the episode is mostly funny, we're focused on that, and we tend to skip over the underlying issue here - in this case, Willow misusing magic, and using it as an easy way out of her problems.
Nevertheless, Something Blue is just too hilarious and leaves me in fits of laughter every time. Giles is comedy gold.
NotASlayer
If you take away the humour from episodes like that you end up with, well, seasons six and seven.
Vamp WIllow and Olaf were both strongly because of Anya
Willow's intentions towards Buffy at least were totally noble. They'd accepted worse spells with little complaint
they never give a reason for her to be the one doing the truth spell rather than and when they're doing they're looking up the enjoining spell he very quickly hands it off to Willow suggesting she's taking charge of it
far from true as the worst that happens when Jonathan brainwashes the whole damn town the worst he gets is a mild talking to. So, no it's not just cause it's the core Scoobies
thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
In the case of VampWillow Anya lied about the specifics of her amulet but it was Willow that botched the spell by fumbling with the ingredients and bringing forth her vamp self. So kinda 50/50.
I wouldn't be so harsh if Willow had learned her lesson here but she really doesn't. She still continues to 'toy' with magicks that she can't control.
The troll summoning was pretty much mostly Willow since all Anya was doing was talking and being irritating, it was Willow who -mid-casting- broke off to go off on Anya and let the spell get out of control; 90% her fault.
Not that it matters, not lasting consequences for either of them. Xander is badly beaten and almost dies.
I don't think surreptitiously lying that you weren't ever going to do magic again and then trying to secretly mind-wipe Buffy AND Tara was very noble. Willow's intentions was almost entirely self-serving and the way she went about it was underhanded.
Only that it was Willow's idea in the first place, which implies that she'd be familiar with the spell.
Because the 'paralyzing spell' can only be cast/encanted by an 'experienced witch'. And there is no 'handing off to' regarding the enjoining spell, its always depicted as a group effort and they all cast it together.
NotASlayer
The OMWF "reveal" was about as convincing as Spike "wanting" a soul.
Tara, absolutely agree with you. There’s no situation where it’s okay to mind-wipe/essentially roofie your partner. Willow doing it to avoid consequences of arguments was just straight childish and she should’ve been seriously punished for that. Agree.
Buffy, I can see the reasoning.
The problem is the execution is wrong. If Buffy had asked for Willow to make her forget, that’s a situation I’d be okay with. Or even if Willow had said “I can do this to help you”, and Buffy had agreed or signed off. The fact that she took it upon herself to do something Buffy didn’t vocally want or consent to is where the problems lie.
Well-intentioned, but done the wrong way.
Willow’s poor handling of the spell is a problem, but the whole situation was Anya’s fault at the core. Had she not turned him into a troll in the first place, it wouldn’t have happened. I think they’re both equally culpable in that whole debacle.
thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
Honestly, I really don't think the memory spell was done for Buffy's benefit, but more FOR Willow's. Willow is distressed that she pulled Buffy out of heaven and is now suffering (because of Willow, basically). She feels guilt and wants to 'make it all better with magic!' as per, so she goes ahead and does it.
I think that's the reason she didn't tell Buffy, it wasn't really about her. But if she could make Buffy's pain go away then SHE can feel better. Of course Willow also wants Buffy to be happy for the sake of it, but that's not the primary motivation, hence her sketchiness.
Y'know, up until just now I must've blanked on the fact that Olaf exists entirely because of Anyanka, and just so happened to be imprisoned in a jewel(?) in the Magic Box in the first place.
So, duh, obviously Anya is also responsible! 😳 (It's been such a long time since I've seen Triangle) And yeah, I'll agree that whenever Anya is involved she should get her share of the blame. lol
Strongly agree.
The pretense is “I’m helping”, but we see from her reaction in OMWF that there’s a ton of guilt there. Highly possible it’s a “by doing this, I absolve myself of all wrongdoing” type deal, especially since Willow had been up her own ass for awhile
I like the character, but as soon as she started twirling that pencil around in S2, her character just started slowly devolving to the point she got in S6. She gets off so easily with some of that stuff lol
NotASlayer
𝕮𝖍𝖔𝖈𝖔𝖑𝖆𝖙𝖊 𝕻𝖗𝖎𝖓𝖈𝖊𝖘𝖘 🍫 👸🏻
Funnily enough, through the Law of Unintended Consequences, "Triangle" ended up being what was probably the most important episode for beating Glory. If Olaf hadn't been turned into a troll, trapped in a crystal and released by Willow's rather thoughtless use of magic, they wouldn't have had his hammer and Anya wouldn't have been able to suggest using it against Glory. And Olaf's Hammer was probably the thing that made the single biggest difference when it came to beating Glory.
toying? She's trying to learn with no one actually willing to teach her
She's being irritating during a spell. Anya knows about emotional control with magic. Hell, she's supposedly smart enough to not sell certain items together because of the danger
Giles has been casting magic since before Willow was alive. Even when he stopped, as a watcher he should have continued the study. Considering Willow, who has been doing magic for around two years an experienced witch and him not is to declare what matters is what you call yourself
yeah, that perspective doesn't work for me at all. That's like saying "You only give to charity so you'll feel better."
over all I look at it as if Willow was trying to alleviate her guilt over ripping Buffy out of heaven the key thing is: She was feeling guilt over ripping Buffy out of heaven
that means to me, it's about Buffy
I think the reason she didn't tell Buffy is cause Buffy holds onto her suffering to much, even to her detriment Like to be perfectly honest, I think Buffy is one of those people who if they had to take medication for a mental illness, they wouldn't take their meds.
Of course I don't tend to like how the Scoobies tend to react to emotional problems, so I respect Willow's attempts to fix them in a way others don't.
come on, she's also basically asking "are you done yet" over and over. If she doesn't get an answer you know she'd start to go on about being ignored in her own store while Willow was using her ingredients.
that's season 3. And why does her feeling guilt matter more than why she's feeling guilty?
So to kind of explain it better, think of it like this.
You threw a party with alcohol present. You had a close friend start drinking and become an alcoholic because of that party. Some time down the line, on your own and without really considering their feelings, you say “I’m gonna do what’s right and throw away all their drinks.”
That’s not really gonna end well, just like Willow erasing Buffy’s memory. There’s a few more issues specific to Buffy’s scenario, namely the fact that Willow would have to mind wipe everyone to ensure Buffy never found out that A) she was in heaven and B) that she had been mind wiped.
Ultimately it really boils down to consent and to respect. Whether Buffy chooses to keep suffering or not is her own choice, but Willow is essentially removing her autonomy and making a decision for her, as a full-grown adult. It shows that she doesn’t really respect her friend and knew it was wrong, as she also didn’t let anyone else in on the scheme. Hold an intervention with her and maybe raise it as a possibility, but respect Buffy’s choice and independence.
Additionally, Willow’s scheme has no foresight whatsoever. She mind-wipes Buffy that she went to heaven…then what. Now the order of things is Buffy loses her mom, she dies, she crawls out of her own grave, her life is miserable and she feels she has to keep living because nobody can fight their own battles, and to top it all off she has to assume she went to hell despite being humanity’s savior a dozen times over. Heaven is the only good thing going for her at this point, and without that she’d likely just be more depressed than before.
Willow is proposing a quick fix that absolves what she did (ripping Buffy out of heaven) with no consideration towards the consequences or repercussions, and that’s beside the horrendous moral issues with what she’s planning on doing.
My bad! That scene always blends into late Season 2 for me for some reason. 🙂
Because Willow’s sense of guilt makes her feel entitled to make bad choices in the name of being “the right thing to do”.
If you did something bad and feel remorse for it, naturally you’d try to make up for it. The problem with Willow in S6 isn’t that she feels guilty. It’s that she justifies bad decisions under a pretense of “I feel bad”. Again, it goes back to consent and respect. She’s showing a stunning lack of respect and eliminating Buffy’s role in things because she feels bad about something she did.
That doesn’t show you’re remorseful. It just shows you want to make yourself feel better. If she wanted to really help Buffy, she’d talk to her and try to help her or bring it up with the Scoobs, not make choices for her without her input like she’s a dumb child.
NotASlayer
𝕮𝖍𝖔𝖈𝖔𝖑𝖆𝖙𝖊 𝕻𝖗𝖎𝖓𝖈𝖊𝖘𝖘 🍫 👸🏻
This is one of the reasons why season six is so bad for Giles' character, making him into a truly awful person.
I can understand, after Eyghon, why Giles might be reluctant to teach others magic. Season six's end revealed, though, that Giles had known for years people better qualified to teach Willow than him and could not be bothered doing anything about it. Even worse, he could see Willow was having problems early in that season and still did not bother asking them for help.
"I'd like to test that theory" is one of Giles' all-time worst moments, showing he could have helped Willow years ago but did not care enough about her or the Scoobies to do so. S6 really does a number on Giles. Out of universe, I think it was the lousy writing as the coven likely did not exist before the episode they were mentioned in was written.
thetopher
This is a great point that I never thought of before. Wow, S6 really does tank the whole 'Giles-as-decent-mentor' thing. S7 sinks it.
thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
And then she gets things wrong, and other people suffer, and then she learns nothing and does it again next year. But it's other people's fault for not teaching Willow to do better?
Sorry, no, people actually died as a result of VampWillow's actions so 'actual Willow' should take that into account and learn to be better herself.
Most of Willow's bad stuff is done when she's a legal adult, after all. Adults take responsibility for their own actions, they don't blame others for not helping them get better.
Yeah, she absolutely should've shut up...but bear in mind Anya hasn't used any magic (beyond her demon abilities) for a while and so is not as versed in spellcraft as she used to be. Willow should also know better and find a way to defuse the situation.
Hey, another option? Maybe Willow says 'fine, I'll just buy the damn ingredients!' and stops being so entitled as soon as Giles is absent.
Both Anya and Willow are kind of insufferable this episode.
He became a Watcher and then have very strict protocols about use of the dark arts.
I would also suggest that Giles learned from his own 'messing with the dark arts' and vowed that he would never be the cause of another loss of life due to dumb castings. I get that, that's a natural reaction to demon-summoning trauma and loss of friends. I certainly don't blame Giles because I find it totally understandable.
It's completely irrelevant anyway given they didn't even cast the spell you're referring to but instead cast the enjoining spell together.
Basic rule; if the reason you're doing something is for a person then you should probably tell that person so that they can consent to what you are doing.
Edit: The rule is waved in case of surprise Birthdays, obviously.
Edit 2: Rule is also waved when person is actively trying to murder people because of current emotional trauma, such as Dark Willow or Connor, then you don't need their consent, lives are at stake.
This just seems like more of the 'Willow knows better' empty self-justifying rationale that permeates the season, and its what leads to Buffy getting dragged out of heaven, Tara having her mind played with, Dawn getting her arm broken and people getting skinned.
Willow has no right to play with the minds of Buffy (and Tara!) for what Willow perceives is Buffy's own benefit.
If she really thinks that this would be best for Buffy then she floats the idea past Buffy. She persuades and pleads with Buffy she desperately wants to and is able to take away some of her suffering, she tells Buffy that she feels terrible about what she did and wants, in some small way, to make it better...but she doesn't want to repeat her past mistake and so asks Buffy what she wants!
It's not really that hard.
AlphaFoxtrot
Scooby
- Joined
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- 45
Magic is supposed to be an artifact of the old ones, it comes with a price, and once you open the door, it becomes a part of you. But The Craft was like, really cool. In truth, if you are willing to tolerate one of your friends practicing black magic, you have to be forgiving of the mistakes.
I'm also convinced that magic "mind control" spells manipulate pre-existing impulses, like Willow just took the normal degree of attraction Buffy and Spike have for each other, and turned it up to eleven. True mind control would likely cause permanent damage.
I'm also convinced that magic "mind control" spells manipulate pre-existing impulses, like Willow just took the normal degree of attraction Buffy and Spike have for each other, and turned it up to eleven. True mind control would likely cause permanent damage.
NotASlayer
𝕮𝖍𝖔𝖈𝖔𝖑𝖆𝖙𝖊 𝕻𝖗𝖎𝖓𝖈𝖊𝖘𝖘 🍫 👸🏻
Although Buffy showed no attraction to Spike until S7. Even then, that was after being ripped out of heaven, extreme depression and suffering from two seasons of stalking and abuse.
Spike showed no attraction until S5, and that probably at least partly because he was unable to get his usual... satisfaction from her that he got from killing Slayers.