Does anyone think Willow was forgiven too quickly in something blue?.

[garfan]

So to kind of explain it better, think of it like this.

You threw a party with alcohol present. You had a close friend start drinking and become an alcoholic because of that party. Some time down the line, on your own and without really considering their feelings, you say “I’m gonna do what’s right and throw away all their drinks.”

That’s not really gonna end well, just like Willow erasing Buffy’s memory. There’s a few more issues specific to Buffy’s scenario, namely the fact that Willow would have to mind wipe everyone to ensure Buffy never found out that A) she was in heaven and B) that she had been mind wiped.

Ultimately it really boils down to consent and to respect. Whether Buffy chooses to keep suffering or not is her own choice, but Willow is essentially removing her autonomy and making a decision for her, as a full-grown adult. It shows that she doesn’t really respect her friend and knew it was wrong, as she also didn’t let anyone else in on the scheme. Hold an intervention with her and maybe raise it as a possibility, but respect Buffy’s choice and independence.

Additionally, Willow’s scheme has no foresight whatsoever. She mind-wipes Buffy that she went to heaven…then what. Now the order of things is Buffy loses her mom, she dies, she crawls out of her own grave, her life is miserable and she feels she has to keep living because nobody can fight their own battles, and to top it all off she has to assume she went to hell despite being humanity’s savior a dozen times over. Heaven is the only good thing going for her at this point, and without that she’d likely just be more depressed than before.

Buffy would have no reason to assume she would go to hell. Except maybe her depression. Like despite a heaven in season 7 Buffy flat out declares there's nothing solid regarding God

Angel's soul should have gone to an afterlife when he was turned, he makes no mention of it. Maybe souls just aren't meant to retain that sort of knowledge

Willow is proposing a quick fix that absolves what she did (ripping Buffy out of heaven) with no consideration towards the consequences or repercussions, and that’s beside the horrendous moral issues with what she’s planning on doing.


Because Willow’s sense of guilt makes her feel entitled to make bad choices in the name of being “the right thing to do”.

If you did something bad and feel remorse for it, naturally you’d try to make up for it. The problem with Willow in S6 isn’t that she feels guilty. It’s that she justifies bad decisions under a pretense of “I feel bad”. Again, it goes back to consent and respect. She’s showing a stunning lack of respect and eliminating Buffy’s role in things because she feels bad about something she did.

That doesn’t show you’re remorseful. It just shows you want to make yourself feel better. If she wanted to really help Buffy, she’d talk to her and try to help her or bring it up with the Scoobs, not make choices for her without her input like she’s a dumb child.
And then she gets things wrong, and other people suffer, and then she learns nothing and does it again next year. But it's other people's fault for not teaching Willow to do better?
Sorry, no, people actually died as a result of VampWillow's actions so 'actual Willow' should take that into account and learn to be better herself.

How often does WIllow make the same mistake twice? Suggesting she does learn things. Also, these spells are how she betters herself to do the spells she has to do. Meaning without these spells, no big gun against Glory

Most of Willow's bad stuff is done when she's a legal adult, after all. Adults take responsibility for their own actions, they don't blame others for not helping them get better.

I can't recall Willow blaming anyone. I do from outside the narrative

Yeah, she absolutely should've shut up...but bear in mind Anya hasn't used any magic (beyond her demon abilities) for a while and so is not as versed in spellcraft as she used to be. Willow should also know better and find a way to defuse the situation.

Hey, another option? Maybe Willow says 'fine, I'll just buy the damn ingredients!' and stops being so entitled as soon as Giles is absent.

Both Anya and Willow are kind of insufferable this episode.

okay, but she's still stopping the spell and talking about things not the spell, which is what triggered the problem

This just seems like more of the 'Willow knows better' empty self-justifying rationale that permeates the season, and its what leads to Buffy getting dragged out of heaven, Tara having her mind played with, Dawn getting her arm broken and people getting skinned.

Willow has no right to play with the minds of Buffy (and Tara!) for what Willow perceives is Buffy's own benefit.
If she really thinks that this would be best for Buffy then she floats the idea past Buffy. She persuades and pleads with Buffy she desperately wants to and is able to take away some of her suffering, she tells Buffy that she feels terrible about what she did and wants, in some small way, to make it better...but she doesn't want to repeat her past mistake and so asks Buffy what she wants!
It's not really that hard.

Except the severe lack of Scoobies talking to each other really says it IS that difficult for them

Magic is supposed to be an artifact of the old ones, it comes with a price, and once you open the door, it becomes a part of you. But The Craft was like, really cool. In truth, if you are willing to tolerate one of your friends practicing black magic, you have to be forgiving of the mistakes.

I do not believe this is true at all.

I'm also convinced that magic "mind control" spells manipulate pre-existing impulses, like Willow just took the normal degree of attraction Buffy and Spike have for each other, and turned it up to eleven. True mind control would likely cause permanent damage.

So Katrina had a pre-existing impulse to mindlessly obey Warren?

 

[thetopher]

I'm also convinced that magic "mind control" spells manipulate pre-existing impulses, like Willow just took the normal degree of attraction Buffy and Spike have for each other, and turned it up to eleven.

So I guess every woman in Sunnydale really wanted to, on some level, be with Xander in S2? Even Joyce, Buffy and Drusilla. lucky guy lol.

Seriously I think magic/the supernatural is shown to seriously override normal mental faculties in unnatural ways; we're shown this multiple times on both shows.

True mind control would likely cause permanent damage.

The closest we get to seeing 'permanent mind control' is the powerful magic used on Connor in the Angel S4 finale. Ironically this magic makes Connor more stable and happy, even after all his memories are unlocked.

In truth, if you are willing to tolerate one of your friends practicing black magic, you have to be forgiving of the mistakes.

Quantify 'black magic'? Like, is that what every magical practitioner does; is there no real difference between the magic Rack uses and the magic Tara uses?
And if not then why did absorbing magic from forbidden books make Willow's hair change colour?

 

[NotASlayer]

So I guess every woman in Sunnydale really wanted to, on some level, be with Xander in S2? Even Joyce, Buffy and Drusilla. lucky guy lol.

Xander/Drusilla. We really should have got more of that. Freaking out Angelus and Spike!

 

[Plasma]

Buffy would have no reason to assume she would go to hell. Except maybe her depression. Like despite a heaven in season 7 Buffy flat out declares there's nothing solid regarding God

So then what’s the point of erasing her memory? If she just assumes she went to heaven or, worse, that there is no god or heaven at all, how is that going to help the situation?

How often does WIllow make the same mistake twice? Suggesting she does learn things. Also, these spells are how she betters herself to do the spells she has to do. Meaning without these spells, no big gun against Glory

A lot. This whole discussion we’re having is because she makes the mistake of doing magic beyond her control, which she has gotten lambasted for before. Several times. In the same season.

I can't recall Willow blaming anyone. I do from outside the narrative

As far as this one and the two points after, I never said what you quoted, so idk where that came from. I think somehow @thetopher ’s stuff got quoted under me? Any case, I won’t speak to those points

 

[NotASlayer]

Willow seems to be making the same category of mistake over and over again, and that is a quick fix for her emotions. Consider:

The delusting spell because of her emotions regarding Xander.
The vengeance spell because of her emotions over Oz.
The will be done spell, again because of her emotions over Oz.
The mind-rape of Tara, because she didn't want the emotions of the argument.
The mind-rape of Tara again for pretty much the same reason, and the mind-rape of Buffy because of Willow's emotions over Buffy.

If emotions are a bad thing to get tied up in magic, then Willow really should not be doing it.

 

[garfan]

Quantify 'black magic'? Like, is that what every magical practitioner does; is there no real difference between the magic Rack uses and the magic Tara uses?
And if not then why did absorbing magic from forbidden books make Willow's hair change colour?

this is one of the biggest issues with magic. It is not nearly defined enough. It's so poorly defined I can totally see not just taking Giles and Tara's concerns into account

So then what’s the point of erasing her memory? If she just assumes she went to heaven or, worse, that there is no god or heaven at all, how is that going to help the situation?

it's the memory of the loss that's at least part of the problem.

A lot. This whole discussion we’re having is because she makes the mistake of doing magic beyond her control, which she has gotten lambasted for before. Several times. In the same season.

you can't just say it's "magic beyond her control" because how else do you learn control? Plus she controls magic that hurts gods and resurrects the dead. How can you just assume the other stuff is beyond her control?

Willow seems to be making the same category of mistake over and over again, and that is a quick fix for her emotions. Consider:

The delusting spell because of her emotions regarding Xander.
The vengeance spell because of her emotions over Oz.

these two don't count because she never got to cast them. I stand behind this because Willow was in a position as someone dealing with the supernatural and could have had no talent at magic, but a desire to learn, then decided to do those spells and just utterly failed

The will be done spell, again because of her emotions over Oz.

this is the one that's accurate

The mind-rape of Tara, because she didn't want the emotions of the argument.
The mind-rape of Tara again for pretty much the same reason, and the mind-rape of Buffy because of Willow's emotions over Buffy.

If emotions are a bad thing to get tied up in magic, then Willow really should not be doing it.

I think those two are a different sort of thing. Like you want your emotions under control is saying you want to be rational, mentally focused sort of thing, not that you don't want your emotions involved in the decision making at all

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Re: Attraction: Yes, that’s exactly what I am saying. The way a love spell works is that it takes whatever attraction you hold for someone, even the tiniest quantum, and blows it up to the level of obsession.

Re: Katrina; I think she was under something like the Imperio Spell from Harry Potter. Imperio puts you in a trance like state where if you do what you are told, you feel good, and if you struggle, pain.

My view for this, is that mental magic should have a degree of subtlety to it, and not be brute force.

Re: Black Magic: My understanding is that White Magic doesn’t really appear by name before Dungeons & Dragons. Willow seems to be able to do whatever she wants to with no consequence, and the source of said powers is never made clear. Given that she’s eventually able to perform both Angel’s ensoulment spell and Buffy’s resurrection, which are both pretty dark, I have to believe that Black Magic is something she is skilled in.

 

[Plasma]

it's the memory of the loss that's at least part of the problem.

I mean, I guess, but Buffy would find out anyways. Or she'd have something new to be depressed over. Again, this comes after OMWF, where she reveals to everyone what happened. Willow would have to completely mind-wipe everybody for the whole heaven thing to be erased, and that's well beyond the morally dubious area we're in with her attempting to brainwash Buffy.

Furthermore, it sets off a chain of what-ifs. Like if Buffy is still depressed, let's say Willow decides, "Well, I'm gonna make her forget she died". Then we're resetting Buffy to Season 5 when she lost her mom. "Well, I'm gonna make her forget her mom died." Etc. At what point does it become "bad" for Willow to brain-wipe in that situation, y'know? Before you say that the brainwashing of Buffy is a one and done, remember she did it to Tara several times, and was continuing to do so after being caught. She has a very "just one more" sort of attitude and very poor self-control in S6.

you can't just say it's "magic beyond her control" because how else do you learn control? Plus she controls magic that hurts gods and resurrects the dead. How can you just assume the other stuff is beyond her control?

I absolutely can. She has the ability to use that magic, but has no control over it whatsoever. Best example, Jurassic Park. InGen has the ability to clone dinosaurs, yeah, but they have absolutely no control over those dinosaurs or the situation. Willow has the power to clone dinosaurs, say, but she doesn't have the capability to actually control them or that power. She isn't God. She's just playing at it. It's like saying I control a river because I take pailfuls of water from it.

Consider that the crux of this post, Willow attempting to brainwash her friends, is completely botched, and frankly that seemed an easy "spell". Throw herb into fire, done. Her attempt to resurrect Buffy was a crapshoot that barely worked. The only time she really showed control over magic along the lines of hurting the great and grand Glorificus was at the end of Season 6 when she went bananas and evil. She completely loses herself. When she used it in 5, it was for a limited time and left her pretty shaken up. Even in S6, the only character who shows a modicum of control over heavier-grade magic whilst retaining themselves is Giles, and that's only because he has the backing of the coven.

As far as how do you learn? In a controlled environment, which is somewhat of the failing of Giles. He leaves when he needed to stay, but in fairness...Willow didn't go to him for guidance or help. Or even Anya, the former Vengeance Demon. Willow very much just looks at books and says, "Well I'm gonna do that to see if I can do it," which isn't safe or responsible.

these two don't count because she never got to cast them. I stand behind this because Willow was in a position as someone dealing with the supernatural and could have had no talent at magic, but a desire to learn, then decided to do those spells and just utterly failed

She still had the intent though, which is important here. The whole plot of Something Blue is that she intended to brainwash certain people, failed, and accidentally brainwashed everyone (almost killing them all, by the way).

And honestly it's very telling about Willow's character that with this immense magical power she has access to, she makes flippant decisions and choices based on what she's feeling. That's extremely irresponsible, and she was showing that sort of behavior 2 seasons before this one at the latest. Like @NotASlayer said, she is someone who opts for quick fixes when it comes to emotions because she doesn't understand them as well as she does things like computers.

 

[garfan]

She still had the intent though, which is important here. The whole plot of Something Blue is that she intended to brainwash certain people, failed, and accidentally brainwashed everyone (almost killing them all, by the way).

I guess if you consider changing her own emotions as brainwashing that counts, but she's the only person she was trying to affect. I've heard the idea she was going to bring Oz back, but leading off with "my heart be healed" means she's going to fix herself and after that, she would e fine with Oz leaving

And honestly it's very telling about Willow's character that with this immense magical power she has access to, she makes flippant decisions and choices based on what she's feeling. That's extremely irresponsible, and she was showing that sort of behavior 2 seasons before this one at the latest. Like @NotASlayer said, she is someone who opts for quick fixes when it comes to emotions because she doesn't understand them as well as she does things like computers.

Both Lover's Walk and Something Blue tale place close to a month after the inciting event. That doesn't really seem all that quck to me

 

[NotASlayer]

Re: Attraction: Yes, that’s exactly what I am saying. The way a love spell works is that it takes whatever attraction you hold for someone, even the tiniest quantum, and blows it up to the level of obsession.

My view for this, is that mental magic should have a degree of subtlety to it, and not be brute force.

Regarding Buffy, she never showed even the smallest quantum of attraction to Spike. Of all the Scoobies, Xander was the only one who showed any attraction to Spike (in "Intervention"). Which would have made "Something Blue" even funnier...

To me, blowing up something that has no visible existence into something all-consuming is brute force, rather than subtlety. That is inflicting an obsession with no grounding on someone.

 

[thetopher]

Re: Attraction: Yes, that’s exactly what I am saying. The way a love spell works is that it takes whatever attraction you hold for someone, even the tiniest quantum, and blows it up to the level of obsession.

But...Drusilla finding Xander attractive before she'd ever even seen him is, I'm sorry, laughable.
And that goes for every other female person under the effects of the love spell in BB&B; even those people who'd never seen Xander were, never the less, still kinda attracted to him for the spell to work. What, did they hear that he was kinda cute?
That doesn't make any kind of sense even within the Buffyverse.

I think its more reasonable to say that what you're proposing is how demonic magical abilities work; they only work on existing emotions, no matter how small or repressed, and exaggerate and twist them in monstrous ways. Like Billy or the paranoia demon from AYNOHYEB or the creepy kid-demon from Gingerbread.

There, I would say, that is solid in-show proof that their abilities corrupt existing foibles and hidden feelings and bring them to the surface to heavily influence the human's overall emotional state.

Re: Black Magic: My understanding is that White Magic doesn’t really appear by name before Dungeons & Dragons.

Nah, it was simply just magic and then Black magic was later a sub-class to infer dark/evil intent, I mean, if we're talking real world mysticism and not role-playing games.

 

[NotASlayer]

these two don't count because she never got to cast them. I stand behind this because Willow was in a position as someone dealing with the supernatural and could have had no talent at magic, but a desire to learn, then decided to do those spells and just utterly failed

I believe that is called "speaks to character." Yes, they never happened but she showed some willingness to do it. If she had never tried again afterwards, having learned better, I would agree they were irrelevant. But she did try again later and actually did it. Which is pretty much the opposite of learning from your mistakes.

I think those two are a different sort of thing. Like you want your emotions under control is saying you want to be rational, mentally focused sort of thing, not that you don't want your emotions involved in the decision making at all

They may be different in the specifics - all of them broadly are - but they are very similar in the broad strokes. They all relate to Willow seeking easy fixes for her emotional issues.

 

[garfan]

I believe that is called "speaks to character." Yes, they never happened but she showed some willingness to do it. If she had never tried again afterwards, having learned better, I would agree they were irrelevant. But she did try again later and actually did it. Which is pretty much the opposite of learning from your mistakes.


They may be different in the specifics - all of them broadly are - but they are very similar in the broad strokes. They all relate to Willow seeking easy fixes for her emotional issues.

But since the spells never happened how would she have learned anything? Speaks to character would be for us, not her.

Although thinking about it, not being able to control her emotions either magically or with her own will got Cordelia impaled and nearly cost her her relationship with Oz, and she never considered casting a revenge spell for emotional pain again, just physical

My biggest problem is I just...I feel like people saying magic is an easy fix for emotional problems would have a problem with things like medical fixes for mental issues. Saying I can't do this on my own is actually not easy. And when they went full magic is drugs, they had her go cold turkey which is also a bad thing

 

[Plasma]

My biggest problem is I just...I feel like people saying magic is an easy fix for emotional problems would have a problem with things like medical fixes for mental issues. Saying I can't do this on my own is actually not easy. And when they went full magic is drugs, they had her go cold turkey which is also a bad thing

These are not comparable at all, in my opinion. Mental health issues are issues and situations that usually require treatment or outside help. Willow using magic because she feels sad because of breakup isn’t that whatsoever.

Willow doesn’t have any severe issues that necessitate what she does. She feels guilty, she’s upset that her boyfriend broke up with her, she’s upset because she likes somebody, etc. There is a massive difference between that sort of thing and “I’m clinically depressed.” There’s an even bigger divide if we’re talking about surgical or medical solutions for things like schizophrenia. Those conditions are completely out of that person’s control. Being sad because your boyfriend dumped you or feeling bad because you made bad choices really isn’t.

Further, she turns to magic to be used against or on other people, without their consent or knowledge. There’s a huge difference between “I’m gonna do magic to make myself feel better” and “I’m gonna do magic on someone to make myself feel better”.

And yeah, it is hard to say “I can’t do it on my own.” But for the solution to just be “I’ll make everyone do what I want”, that is seriously bad and justifying bad decision making. If you know you have a problem, you know that you need help, you tell people you need help, and you continue to do whatever you were doing anyways, I lose sympathy. At some point, bad actions and bad choices need to be held accountable and there needs to be a modicum of responsibility.

The drug metaphor was half baked, but she should’ve gotten treatment. I agree her just being expected to not do magic is kinda dumb. She should’ve been sent to somebody or been taken under someone’s wing, which again, is a failing on Giles’s behalf. Seasons 6 & 7 assassinate a lot of characters.

 

[garfan]

And yeah, it is hard to say “I can’t do it on my own.” But for the solution to just be “I’ll make everyone do what I want”,

I don't think she ever actually does that. Not in my eyes, not in a world where you can literally make people your puppets

that is why I always think her control issues are about controlling herself. She tries to keep things pushed just enough so others aren't telling her how to act

 

[NotASlayer]

My biggest problem is I just...I feel like people saying magic is an easy fix for emotional problems would have a problem with things like medical fixes for mental issues. Saying I can't do this on my own is actually not easy. And when they went full magic is drugs, they had her go cold turkey which is also a bad thing

The entire Magic is Now Drugs storyline was just terrible from start to finish. And magic was repeatedly shown to be a dangerous thing with dangerous consequences if you did not know what you were doing. It certainly was not, as depicted, suitable for fixing any kind of health issue. It was even stated - in "Shadow" I think - that mixing magic with healing was a really bad idea.

I don't think she ever actually does that. Not in my eyes, not in a world where you can literally make people your puppets

that is why I always think her control issues are about controlling herself. She tries to keep things pushed just enough so others aren't telling her how to act

I have no desire to rewatch S6 to confirm this but didn't she start manipulating people in the Bronze like puppets?

 

[hoponlilmama]

The drug metaphor was half baked, but she should’ve gotten treatment. I agree her just being expected to not do magic is kinda dumb. She should’ve been sent to somebody or been taken under someone’s wing, which again, is a failing on Giles’s behalf. Seasons 6 & 7 assassinate a lot of characters.

Considering Giles pointed out his concern with Willow and her use of magic in s4 and s6 after the resurrection spell, she really needed some guidance. Either from Giles directly, or as you said, taken under someone's wing, like getting her in touch with the coven.

Apologies, my comment is more of a gripe about the poor storyline of Giles leaving, and the writers needing a better excuse why he left not only Buffy struggling, but Willow who was teetering on the edge.

 

[garfan]

The entire Magic is Now Drugs storyline was just terrible from start to finish. And magic was repeatedly shown to be a dangerous thing with dangerous consequences if you did not know what you were doing. It certainly was not, as depicted, suitable for fixing any kind of health issue. It was even stated - in "Shadow" I think - that mixing magic with healing was a really bad idea.

that was physical health. And in season 7 Willow was shown healing herself in Same Time, Same Place. Also in Angel season 5, Connor was much mentally healthier after an evil law firm rewrote his mind

I have no desire to rewatch S6 to confirm this but didn't she start manipulating people in the Bronze like puppets?

yes. Smashed and Wrecked were her at her worst behavior and there was no justifying that.

However that's the lead in to the magic is now drugs storyline and while wht Willow did with magic wasn't right, blowing off Giles and Tara's warnings is a different matter, cause I don't feel like the show came close to even touching on that. Like that is pretty much the only time magic behaved like that and the one time in the past that getting high was mentioned it was phrased in such a way it could have just meant thrill or rush. I certainly never thought Giles demon summoning days were about getting high, and they didn't mention anything like that happening to Jenny when Eyghon possessed her

It's also never clear what she's actually doing, with one transcript site has the spells as glamors, and those are traditionally just making things look like other things in which case she actually isn't puppeteering them that much

And of course there's the switch from she's using magic to control things to magic is controlling her.

Youi know before both of her worst moments in Smashed, Amy actually manipulates her into going out and doing this stuff. Yeah, it's an easy manipulation, but how much threat to others is someone likely to be when their first instinct is to keep to themselves and not go out around others.

If Willow was actually being controlling her reaction to Amy's suggestion that introduces Rack should have been more like "I said we're taking the night off." pause "or I am at least. You do what you want, I'm your friend not your boss."

 

[NotASlayer]

The health and magic stuff - it was "Shadow" - did appear to change later on. Willow herself was saying that it was a bad idea, then later it's fine?

The Magic is Now Drugs and Magic Corrupts storylines were a confused mess that had nothing to do with Willow wanting to destroy the world as well. That was all down on Giles popping up after not caring for most of the season and provoking her into doing so. Even Warren and Tara's death was not responsible for that. Well done Giles!

I have heard that Magic is Now Drugs was because of a storyline that was "young person corrupted into drugs by trusted friend" a writer had on the shelf which was massively inappropriate for how it was used, especially given how magic had been the metaphor for Willow and Tara's relationship previously. I guess that when they were "doing spells all night" they were in fact getting high. Season six did not handle that well. Or handle anything else well.

 

[garfan]

The health and magic stuff - it was "Shadow" - did appear to change later on. Willow herself was saying that it was a bad idea, then later it's fine?

this is why I have no problem using my headcanons to fill in things I think are dumb and even contradict stuff

I give them stuff like this and deciding that accelerating the body's natural healing is different than healing stuff the body can't heal