Does being a B/A shipper mean one does not like Spike, and vice a versa?

[Amyrat151]

I don't know if this goes here or in the battle ship one but I guess it will be moved if it's not.
So I've been in fandom for more than half my life and I've weighed in on more than one shipping debate in my time. I've made what I thought were great points and said some stupid things I'd like to forget; I think a lot of us can relate to that. A trend I've seen over and over is when answering "who do you think is better for character A, character B or character C," is that people who want A with B will put in more than one scathing remark about C. It's the same for people who want A with C, it's almost a requirement that one has to say something bitchy about B.
For example, this past fall, I got into a little debate thing about True Blood. Not the bestest show on TV but it's trashy in all the best ways to me. Anyway, I think Eric and Sookie make a terrible pair and when I talked to a supporter about their relationship, she kept bringing up Bill and all the crap he did to Sookie. Keep in mind, I said nothing about Bill in the first place. I kept saying I didn't think Sookie should be with Bill either but she never fully dropped it. Why do we do this?
So I'm a huge Buffy/Angel shipper. I love them together, there are my OTP but you know who I also love, Spike. I think Spike is an amazing character. I loved when he was badass and evil and I loved him fighting to get his own atonement. Sure I don't think he should be with Buffy but I have reasons that have nothing to do with Angel. For example after the last issue, I am more sympathetic of Spike than I am of Buffy. I think he deserves more than someone who only wants him around when she's miserable. Whatever, the point is I feel a little miffed when it's assumed that just because I ship B/A means I don't like Spike.
So what about other people here, do you think that shipping one couple automatically means hating an opposing character and if it doesn't then why does fandom seem to cater to people who feel that way?

 

[sisterofmercy]

No I don't think so. Maybe the extreme shipper people, but it certainly isn't an exclusive thing. I prefer Spuffy but Bangel has a time and place that was actually quite sweet in a way. I've never understood people who go massively overboard with it. I also don't mind Angel as a character, I just don't really love him either.

 

[Vamp Jenny]

I don't think one equals the other. I'm a Bangel shipper, but I also like Spuffy, which also means I like Spike.

 

[xfivebyfive]

No I dont think liking a ship should influence whether or not you like a character. You can like a character and not like a ship theyre in.

 

[brinkster130]

I don't think liking a certain ship will insure that you dislike another character or even any other pairing with those characters. That being said, it is a very common assumption that people among fandom make about shippers.

I think people jump to that assumption so often because they are characters are often pitted against each other and talked about in such a way that people may feel like they can only support one. Like when we ask people if they are a Bangel or Spuffy; it almost comes of as if you should only identify with one.

Personally, I've never enjoyed (or taken) the drag one character through the mud to make another look good approach but it does happen frequently. I don't why it is virtually impossible to have a discussion about one character with out someone bringing another one into it. We see it all the time here, someone questions something Spike did and rather than discussing Spike people end up talking about Angel and vice versa...it really is just a poor justification technique.

 

[Kairos]

I love Spike in large part because he's a terrible match for Buffy. His one-sided pining for her gives him depth, tragedy, and plenty of humor.

 

[Taaroko]

I'm pretty sure I still wouldn't like Spike and Spuffy if Angel and Buffy/Angel didn't exist. But it pains me to imagine such a scenario, so I'm going to stop now.

 

[Kean]

I'm fairly certain no onevwill believe anything I'm about to say. 😉

I ship Bangel and I don't like Spike, but one has nothing to do with other. I just don't like the guy. I don't get him, and never found anything interesting enough about him to try. No big deal though, right? Well, not really. Once you get into fandom you find that there is this divide and you are nearly always forced to choose which side your on. Not to mention that when discussing B/A or Spike they annoyingly get pulled into each other's topics and threads, and once again you are back to picking a side.

So, no. I don't believe being B/A leads to an inevitable hating of Spike. I never liked him all that much, but then I've never liked his character type in other shows either. If it was just about B/A then I should dislike Cordy and Riley too, maybe throw Nina and Darla. But I love Cordy and Riley, and I enjoy Nina and Darla. My dislike of Spike has everything to do with Spike. Not anything else.

 

[dexeded]

Nope, it doesn't mean the shipper hates a rival love interest. That said, I think that one of the reasons people bring said rival love interest into the discussion is to clarify things. For example, Spuffy shipper arguing about Spike's goodness with someone he/she knows is a Bangel (or just Angel lover). So by asking about Angel vs Angelus, Spuffy shipper can clarify what is deemed 'good' by the Bangel/Angel lover. It's like using analogies to prove a point.

 

[BuffyElevated]

No, I don't think so. I love Bangel, but I also love Spuffy, for different reasons. I think it's entirely possible for someone who loves Bangel to also love Spuffy and/or Spike.

 

[ladydorotea]

For example, Spuffy shipper arguing about Spike's goodness with someone he/she knows is a Bangel (or just Angel lover). So by asking about Angel vs Angelus, Spuffy shipper can clarify what is deemed 'good' by the Bangel/Angel lover. It's like using analogies to prove a point.

I never felt needing analogies to 'prove my point' when discussing Angel - until I ran into unrelenting Angel-bashing by multiple Spikefans. I don't even go into Spike-threads, Spuffy-threads, Spuffy-subforum etc, to 'prove my point'. I see Spike-fans doing all of the above all the time in Angel related threads - I guess maybe because they feel insecure and need continuous Angel-bashing to stay interested in the discussion? I never seen much positivity brought up by Spike-fans to 'prove the point' either - even though the two guys are vampires with souls and have a lot in common. Same applies to Riley discussions by Spike-fans. And the funny part - the 'point' is never proved - maybe exactly because of all the negativity. So, yeah, I place most of my developed dislike of Spike as a character at the feet of his fandom - when I just watched the show, as I mentioned already, I took Spike to be a comic relief and was fine with that - neither liking him too much, nor hating him. And yup, I am an unrelenting Bangel.

 

[EvilWillow]

I love Spike, he is one of my favorite characters because his journey is so fascinating to me.

That being said, I'm not a Bangel shipper, but I don't hate Bangel at all. I prefer Spuffy, and I would never put anyone down, be disrespectful to them, or making them feel bad for not liking my ship. We all have differences in opinions.

I think it's really despicable to to be rude to each other over fictional character relationships. 😛

 

[Summerlilly]

Hmmm....well, I'm pleasantly suprised. I've always thought I was one of the only people that loved multiple ships. Loving one ship certanly doesn't mean I hate another character. I'm a Bangel at heart but definately indulge in and appreciate Spuffy. I could see why this question would be asked, though. I think it might relate more to other ships but not as much in regards to hating Spike if you are a Bangel. I know there are people who dislike Spike but for the most part I don't think hate is often used to describe him.

 

[Moscow Watcher]

I love Angel and I like Bangel in early seasons (although I can't say that I enjoyed Buffy and Angel's interaction in season 8).

I agree with [MENTION=9316]ladydorotea[/MENTION] that there is a lot of negativity in the Spuffy segment of the fandom. I don't share this negativity, but I can understand it. Since season 6 we know that after every "Once More With Feeling" there will be a "Seeing Red". When the characters become your brothers and sisters, it's frustrating.

 

[white avenger]

From the first moment that I saw them together, I have always though of Buffy and Spike belonging together. They just fit my idea of a perfect couple, even when they were supposed to be trying to kill each other. And I've never seen Angel as anything but some egotistical Neanderthal who was constantly trying to mess with Spike's girl. But that doesn't mean that I actually disliked the guy. Everyone has their faults, and it's not his fault that his are the biggest, worst, and most plentiful. One thing that you have to admit about Angel, whether you particularly like the character or not is that he's always trying.

Extremely trying.

But, seriously, no, I don't have any trouble liking Angel, and never have had. He's a hero, and he sincerely wants to do what is best. I do, however, prefer him on his own show, because I could never see him on Buffy other than, at best, the Robin to her Batman. He never really got the chance to show just what he could do until he left Sunnydale.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

I don't have any trouble liking Angel, and never have had. He's a hero, and he sincerely wants to do what is best. I do, however, prefer him on his own show

I ship Spuffy yet this is exactly how I feel about Angel

I ship Bangel and I don't like Spike, but one has nothing to do with other.

There might not be a causation involved here but from my time on these boards I have certainly seen quite a correlation between those who dislike Spuffy and those who can't stand Spike, (and among those I include people who only like Spike during certain seasons; Spike's evolution is what makes him who he is and not liking that part of his character isn't really liking him, or at least not for the purpose of this discussion). I bet if someone actually put up a poll, this correlation would be crystal clear. Nothing wrong with it at all, but I just think it's something worth considering.

I don't why it is virtually impossible to have a discussion about one character with out someone bringing another one into it.

As [MENTION=11500]drizzlydaze[/MENTION] pointed out, I believe that making analogies is essential to forming a convincing argument. It's difficult to convince someone that A=C without first demonstrating that A=B, and B=C. The reason Angel gets brought up so often when discussing Spike, (and vice versa) is because of the obvious parallels between those two: redemption, souls, love, Buffy. But lots of other characters get brought up when making comparisons as well. Again, it's not so that one can be dragged through the mud, it''s so that a point can be made. For example if someone says they are unhappy with the way one ensouled character is treated considering that they have been redeemed, (in season 7 take your pick among Spike, Faith, Willow, and Anya), it is often more than necessary to draw parallels with the storyline of another character, (from the same group), in order to determine whether the actions of those being accused of "mistreatment" are indeed unwarranted, especially for the sake of consistency. In any case, that is what I am doing when I mention other characters. I hope that makes sense. 🙂

 

[Kean]

(and among those I include people who only like Spike during certain seasons; Spike's evolution is what makes him who he is and not liking that part of his character isn't really liking him, or at least not for the purpose of this discussion).

But do you not think by agreeing with WA's statement that Angel was better, or more enjoyable, on his own show, that you are doing the exact same thing as those who say they only enjoy certain aspects of Spike? By your own definition, you do not like Angel.

Personally, I don't subscribe to that theory, even though I admit it fits me well, I know it doesn't fit other fans well at all. Not liking something isn't the same as disliking something. I think it is unfair to tell someone they don't really like a character if they say they do. Of course, we don't have to take their word for it, it's just polite to do so in public 😛 🙂

I think there could be an element of being too polite as well. I found that when you say you dislike a character you invite chaos upon yourself, so people tone down their distaste in an effort to avoid causing offence.

---------- Post added at 12:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:11 AM ----------

I contradicted myself about 5 times in that reply * facepalm* I can never get my thoughts together when I'm on my phone. Basically, my point is that are way of determining whether we like characters isn't very consistent.

 

[Vamp Jenny]

I ship Spuffy yet this is exactly how I feel about Angel



There might not be a causation involved here but from my time on these boards I have certainly seen quite a correlation between those who dislike Spuffy and those who can't stand Spike, (and among those I include people who only like Spike during certain seasons; Spike's evolution is what makes him who he is and not liking that part of his character isn't really liking him, or at least not for the purpose of this discussion). I bet if someone actually put up a poll, this correlation would be crystal clear. Nothing wrong with it at all, but I just think it's something worth considering.

If I follow you thought (or what I understand of it), I don't like Angel either, because I didn't like him as much as usual in S3... At one point, when he was all about leaving, I didn't like him at all. So I shouldn't ship BAngel or say that I like Angel because of that?
I don't think what you said here can really apply because it is the same for Spike (and I stated Angel only because I kinda like him more). I like Spike, I just dislike how he was in S5. But overall, I really like the guy.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

But do you not think by agreeing with WA's statement that Angel was better, or more enjoyable, on his own show, that you are doing the exact same thing as those who say they only enjoy certain aspects of Spike? By your own definition, you do not like Angel.

But when I, (and I think WA) say he's "better" and "more enjoyable" on his own show, what I mean is that he is more fleshed out there; that there is no fundamental change in his character, just that on "Angel" we get to see it. So to answer the question--no, it's not the same. People who say they only like Spike as a villain are saying that they only like one aspect of him and don't like the person he became. When I say I prefer Angel on Ats I mean that the show suits him; the writing fleshes him out but doesn't fundamentally change him. If I thought he was essentially a different personality on one show and I preferred him on that show, then yes, I would be saying that I only like him to a certain extent and ultimately that wouldn't qualify a "like" by my definition. Not the case!

I think it is unfair to tell someone they don't really like a character if they say they do.

But by definition if someone says they only like a character when he acts one way and then they dislike him when he's entirely different, I don't understand how, logically speaking, they can say they like the character, (versus just an "aspect" of the character)? I mean I can say I dislike Angelus and I like Angel without being inconsistent; why can't people say they like season 2 Spike, (Spikus if you will) but dislike Spike? To me that would be a more apt way of defining how they feel. If someone only liked Willow when she was flaying people and trying to end the world but declared that they couldn't stand her when she's her usual Willow self, would you say that ultimately they like Willow? They like one aspect of her character sure, but not the core of what makes her Willow. 🙂

I certainly don't mean to hurt people's feelings and I really hope I didn't. Essentially what I'm arguing here is semantics and not people's personal opinions. I don't have any problems with people disliking my favorite characters; I just don't understand why they say they "like" them when they simultaneously admit that they "can't stand them" past a certain season. You know what I mean?

At one point, when he was all about leaving, I didn't like him at all. So I shouldn't ship BAngel or say that I like Angel because of that?

No, of course not! 🙂 As I said above, when someone says they like a character during a particular story line but can't stand them the rest of the time then I don't understand saying that overall they "like" them. But conversely, to dislike an aspect of someone's character doesn't have to mean that you dislike the character itself. Saying you didn't like it when Angel did X but still like Angel makes perfect sense to me. Saying one likes Spike but dislikes him as soon as he evolved and became essentially a different person to me is inherently contradictory and that's the difference. Saying one likes Spike but dislikes certain characteristics of his could still qualify as liking Spike in my opinion, for example. I hope that makes sense.

In terms of shipping Bangel or Spuffy based on a preference for either vampire--as I said in my earlier post there certainly is a correlation there. It's not very often that I've found on the boards that someone prefers Angel to Spike yet ships Spuffy for example. I don't think there's anything wrong with it but it's a correlation worth noting, that's all.

 

[Taake]

There might not be a causation involved here but from my time on these boards I have certainly seen quite a correlation between those who dislike Spuffy and those who can't stand Spike, (and among those I include people who only like Spike during certain seasons; Spike's evolution is what makes him who he is and not liking that part of his character isn't really liking him, or at least not for the purpose of this discussion). I bet if someone actually put up a poll, this correlation would be crystal clear. Nothing wrong with it at all, but I just think it's something worth considering.

I think this is a valid point, but in a way - when you think about it - it makes sense that the people who dislike Spike would dislike Spuffy. Not because of Spuffy in and of itself but because of Spike, quite a big part of Spuffy 😉

So no, I don't think being a Bangel means that you have to dislike Spike or Spuffy, or that being a Spuffy means you have to dislike Bangel or Angel. I do however believe that if you, for whatever reason, dislike either Spike or Angel that does have a tendency to color your opinion on whether you like Spuffy or Bangel. It has more to do with character preferance than ship preference, IMO.

🙂