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Spike Lover
Buffy fanatic ! ! !
Originally posted by JenniLou
Firstly I would argue that it is debatable that you must believe in God to ascend to heaven. Let me give you an example: Constantine the Great used the Christian flag to defeat his enemies in a pivotal battle. He was responsible for converting the Roman Empire to Christianity although he was not a Christian himself. Constantine discovered that the support of the Church was politically valuable. On his deathbed he converted to Christianity. Why had he spent so many years without converting himself? As he saw it, in case God did in fact exist he would be permitted to enjoy an afterlife in heaven. Does this gain him entrance to heaven? I think it's a bit obtuse to think that you must undeniably believe; it is what's in your heart that counts. If God exists he is omnipotent and all-knowing and could see past the callow acts of humans, see their inherent philanthopy despite their inability to accept his existence. But like I said, this is debatable.
Secondly, earlier in the thread we discussed the use of crucifixes and holy water. They aren't used in 'Buffy' as religious imagery and references, but as part of the mythos. A show about vampires without these intrinsic tools essential to the myth would not work; it would cheapen the vampire lore. Religion is ambiguous in the show; it doesn not mean the characters believe or don't believe in a particular creed or faith. It's insignificant to the series anyway.
I would like to agree and also add that you dont know if you have to believe in G-d to get into heaven - you dont even know if there is a heaven!!! All you have based this on, gman, is your beliefs. I respect them, but they are not fact.
Other than that, all i have to say is that i agree, jenni. I definetly see a worthwhile debate, though, on whether the fact that vampires are defeated with crosses and holy water (all symbols of the church, mainly christianity) does or does not show some sense of belief or religion among the scoobies.
😀
Can't Even Shout
Can't Even Cry
I found this article about God and Buffy, I thought it was interesting:
Radical ideas about God as both the universal spiritual-material energy, or as a limited non-sovereign embodiment of such a universal principle, still subject to destiny and limitation, are also found in today's prevailing pop culture. Movies and TV series create universes for us, in which a God called by that name is nowhere to be found, yet the ever-present suggestion is that there are creators in the shape of aliens from other planets who have created life on earth, for either benign or evil purposes. In its more recent incarnations, the internationally successful TV series, The X-Files, may end up suggesting just this. A daily newspaper recently noted how influential The X-Files currently is in shaping individual religion in Canada (Guly 2000); and there are reasons to believe that this may be true in other countries too. For international teenagers (supported by a loyal adult following), there is Buffy the Vampire Slayer with its spin-off series Angel. The show is about a young girl (Buffy) and a reformed "good" vampire (Angel), both endowed with special powers aimed at controlling evil parading in the form of demons, monsters, vampires, and human bad guys. Buffy is intensely disliked by Evangelicals, and has a pronounced pagan flavour (Buffy's best friend, Willow Rosenberg, is a Wiccan). However, there are no clues as to who exactly is in charge of the world. In each generation there is a slayer (Buffy is the current one) appointed to fight evil, and there are Watchers overseeing these young girls (whose life expectation is normally quite short). Buffy's Watcher, Giles, explains in the pilot episode of the show that: "This world is older than any of you know, and contrary to popular mythology, it did not begin as a Paradise. For untold aeons, demons walked the Earth, making it their home, their Hell. In time, they lost their purchase on this reality, and the way was made for mortal animals. For man. What remains of the Old Ones are vestiges", and this is the origin of vampires and other monsters (Golden and Holder 1998, 126). We don't know who created demons, however, and some contemporary demons are actually not evil. Angel learns that his mission to fight both human and supernatural bad guys is overseen by certain "Powers That Be": they are intractable, capricious, and apparently also threatened by the ever-impending triumph of evil and "end of the days". They are not the ultimate power, however, and in turn mention "that which we serve" ("Angel: I Will Remember You" 1999). This may be some supreme God, (but notice the impersonal "that"), and is at any rate not omnipotent when it comes to preventing the ultimate, apocalyptic triumph of chaos over order.
Popular culture, thus, confirms that stories our generation of non-belonging believers (and younger generations) like to tell and hear, are not about secular universes, but involve notions of a Higher Power. These stories, however, more often than not, have no sovereign, omnipotent, transcendent God. "God", or the ultimate Power, may be powerful to an extent, but what is most notably lacking is the distance-separation between God and the world. Either, God (by whatever name), is made of the same stuff, and has the same limitations as humans, or humans are an essential part of the same universal flow of energy we may call God or the Higher Power. From the point of view of institutional religions traditionally dominant in the West, breaching the gulf between creatures and God (or denying that they are "creatures" at all) is clearly objectionable. Although new religious movements (with few exceptions) are notoriously unstable in their coming and going, new religious consciousness, or new religiosity, seems to be a more permanent phenomenon, here to stay. While criticising what they perceive as heresy, older religions should probably bear in mind that the new religiosity is looking for courses rather than discourses, for a holistic notion of God evident in everyday life rather than for theodicy or theology. In a 1999 episode of Buffy ("Buffy the Vampire Slayer: Beer Bad" 1999), college students drink too much beer, discuss theology, and reject the "theology of providence". "There will be no Thomas Aquinas at this table", one of them says. Although this talk by senior students is largely designed to impress Buffy, its content may emblematically indicate the students' distance from traditional theology. Supernatural beings may be out there, but traditional theology is not regarded as useful for dealing with them. Proving to non-belonging believers that traditional notions of God may still be relevant in the 21st century is the challenge that lays ahead for all institutional religions.
Here is the site: http://www.cesnur.org/2001/buffy_march01.htm
Radical ideas about God as both the universal spiritual-material energy, or as a limited non-sovereign embodiment of such a universal principle, still subject to destiny and limitation, are also found in today's prevailing pop culture. Movies and TV series create universes for us, in which a God called by that name is nowhere to be found, yet the ever-present suggestion is that there are creators in the shape of aliens from other planets who have created life on earth, for either benign or evil purposes. In its more recent incarnations, the internationally successful TV series, The X-Files, may end up suggesting just this. A daily newspaper recently noted how influential The X-Files currently is in shaping individual religion in Canada (Guly 2000); and there are reasons to believe that this may be true in other countries too. For international teenagers (supported by a loyal adult following), there is Buffy the Vampire Slayer with its spin-off series Angel. The show is about a young girl (Buffy) and a reformed "good" vampire (Angel), both endowed with special powers aimed at controlling evil parading in the form of demons, monsters, vampires, and human bad guys. Buffy is intensely disliked by Evangelicals, and has a pronounced pagan flavour (Buffy's best friend, Willow Rosenberg, is a Wiccan). However, there are no clues as to who exactly is in charge of the world. In each generation there is a slayer (Buffy is the current one) appointed to fight evil, and there are Watchers overseeing these young girls (whose life expectation is normally quite short). Buffy's Watcher, Giles, explains in the pilot episode of the show that: "This world is older than any of you know, and contrary to popular mythology, it did not begin as a Paradise. For untold aeons, demons walked the Earth, making it their home, their Hell. In time, they lost their purchase on this reality, and the way was made for mortal animals. For man. What remains of the Old Ones are vestiges", and this is the origin of vampires and other monsters (Golden and Holder 1998, 126). We don't know who created demons, however, and some contemporary demons are actually not evil. Angel learns that his mission to fight both human and supernatural bad guys is overseen by certain "Powers That Be": they are intractable, capricious, and apparently also threatened by the ever-impending triumph of evil and "end of the days". They are not the ultimate power, however, and in turn mention "that which we serve" ("Angel: I Will Remember You" 1999). This may be some supreme God, (but notice the impersonal "that"), and is at any rate not omnipotent when it comes to preventing the ultimate, apocalyptic triumph of chaos over order.
Popular culture, thus, confirms that stories our generation of non-belonging believers (and younger generations) like to tell and hear, are not about secular universes, but involve notions of a Higher Power. These stories, however, more often than not, have no sovereign, omnipotent, transcendent God. "God", or the ultimate Power, may be powerful to an extent, but what is most notably lacking is the distance-separation between God and the world. Either, God (by whatever name), is made of the same stuff, and has the same limitations as humans, or humans are an essential part of the same universal flow of energy we may call God or the Higher Power. From the point of view of institutional religions traditionally dominant in the West, breaching the gulf between creatures and God (or denying that they are "creatures" at all) is clearly objectionable. Although new religious movements (with few exceptions) are notoriously unstable in their coming and going, new religious consciousness, or new religiosity, seems to be a more permanent phenomenon, here to stay. While criticising what they perceive as heresy, older religions should probably bear in mind that the new religiosity is looking for courses rather than discourses, for a holistic notion of God evident in everyday life rather than for theodicy or theology. In a 1999 episode of Buffy ("Buffy the Vampire Slayer: Beer Bad" 1999), college students drink too much beer, discuss theology, and reject the "theology of providence". "There will be no Thomas Aquinas at this table", one of them says. Although this talk by senior students is largely designed to impress Buffy, its content may emblematically indicate the students' distance from traditional theology. Supernatural beings may be out there, but traditional theology is not regarded as useful for dealing with them. Proving to non-belonging believers that traditional notions of God may still be relevant in the 21st century is the challenge that lays ahead for all institutional religions.
Here is the site: http://www.cesnur.org/2001/buffy_march01.htm
Queen of Buffdom
Klutz-o-rama
I really enjoyed the article, too. It's nice to read wordy, intelligent articles since I can't write them. 😉
Spike Lover
Buffy fanatic ! ! !
Originally posted by queenofbuffdom86
I really enjoyed the article, too. It's nice to read wordy, intelligent articles since I can't write them. 😉
Amen to that! Lol.
I really enjoyed reading that article - its ideas were interesting and expressed well. A good artice found for this thread, Cant Even Shout! Thanks, well done!
😀
Diminished_9th
Scooby
Does Buffy shape your view of the world?
This is an old thread, but I'm going to ressurect it, and spin it anyway, cuz it's relevent...
Has BVtS influenced your beliefs in God, or Witchcraft, or Vampires?
For me, the answer is no. I strongly believe in Christianity, so when I watch Buffy, I pretty much take it all as fantasy, which, for me, makes the question of Buffy believing in God irrelevant. I think of Buffy purely in a fictional sense, so when it comes to witchcraft and vampires, it's all made up in my mind.
As a Christian, I find it interesting when, as the article says, when evangelicals object to things like Buffy and even Harry Potter. To me, their just stories based on mythic elements, which in and of themselves, are not good or evil....Harry is a good Wizard, Buffy fights evil Vampires (though Willow's journey into "black magic" greys this a little...but still, it's clear that in the Buffyverse, magic can be a force for good.) So I don't have a problem with these elements being used in fiction....
However, I must add (and I guess this is where my questions lie) that in this world, it's a seperate issue. I believe that there are forces of good and evil (yes, God and Satan) and one can...harness, for lack of a better word...both forces. So witchcraft, etc. has always scared me because (and please don't be offended, this is my belief) I believe it comes from dark forces.
I'm not trying to preach or offend anyone...I guess my question is has Buffy influenced what you believe in?
This is an old thread, but I'm going to ressurect it, and spin it anyway, cuz it's relevent...
Has BVtS influenced your beliefs in God, or Witchcraft, or Vampires?
For me, the answer is no. I strongly believe in Christianity, so when I watch Buffy, I pretty much take it all as fantasy, which, for me, makes the question of Buffy believing in God irrelevant. I think of Buffy purely in a fictional sense, so when it comes to witchcraft and vampires, it's all made up in my mind.
As a Christian, I find it interesting when, as the article says, when evangelicals object to things like Buffy and even Harry Potter. To me, their just stories based on mythic elements, which in and of themselves, are not good or evil....Harry is a good Wizard, Buffy fights evil Vampires (though Willow's journey into "black magic" greys this a little...but still, it's clear that in the Buffyverse, magic can be a force for good.) So I don't have a problem with these elements being used in fiction....
However, I must add (and I guess this is where my questions lie) that in this world, it's a seperate issue. I believe that there are forces of good and evil (yes, God and Satan) and one can...harness, for lack of a better word...both forces. So witchcraft, etc. has always scared me because (and please don't be offended, this is my belief) I believe it comes from dark forces.
I'm not trying to preach or offend anyone...I guess my question is has Buffy influenced what you believe in?
Spike Lover
Buffy fanatic ! ! !
Most people here are more than welcome to hear all points of views, you wont have offended people, dont worry!
I find your views most interesting and i like to see all different viewpoints. For me, BUffy has always been mythical and nothing more. My religion is completely separate from a television programme, however good it is.
I dont particularly believe in witchcraft. I dont particularly believe in the supernatural. However, if it exists, i dont believe it all stems from evil forces. I dont particularly believe in it all, but i do believe it all makes particularly good television! Lol.
😀
I find your views most interesting and i like to see all different viewpoints. For me, BUffy has always been mythical and nothing more. My religion is completely separate from a television programme, however good it is.
I dont particularly believe in witchcraft. I dont particularly believe in the supernatural. However, if it exists, i dont believe it all stems from evil forces. I dont particularly believe in it all, but i do believe it all makes particularly good television! Lol.
😀
rdjon
Rock Doctor
Buffy has not influenced my religion...cos I don't have one, being an optimistic aethiest. The only way buffy has influenced me is to study the mythology behind vampires a wee bit more...including watching every vampire film I can and that includes some right stinkers 😀
F
FiveByFiveB
Guest
If you hadn't said it first, I would have replied with almost the exact same post. I'm an atheist too, and the only thing Buffy has done for me is make me wish that my life could be full of the kind of power the characters possess. Buffy may be the number one thing in my life, but it doesn't have the power to change my beliefs.Originally posted by rdjon
Buffy has not influenced my religion...cos I don't have one, being an optimistic aethiest. The only way buffy has influenced me is to study the mythology behind vampires a wee bit more...including watching every vampire film I can and that includes some right stinkers 😀
Yay. I feel special that my thread was looked at after such a long time.
Anita Blake
The Executioner
I don't think my religion has really been influenced by Buffy. I've been wiccan for as long as I can remember and sometimes I get upset because some of the things on Buffy and Angel, and even Charmed, are so totally wrong. They claim that things are wiccan or pagan but in all reality, they're not. I don't think that even one time, they've stated the wiccan rede or any of the tenets that make of the foundation for wiccanism of paganism. I mean, its not the stuff that they show on there is close to what really happens with majick (not magic). Nothing glows or shoots off sparks or anything. And there is alot more to being a witch then just spells and majick. Alot of rituals and rites are involved, also some prayer, but they don't show any of that on the shows. But they still call it witchcraft. It doesn't really bother me most of the time because its like a completely different thing on the shows, but people have alot of misconceptions because of them.
Please feel free to pm me with any questions you have.
(Sis, where have you been hiding this thread? 😀 I like it!)
Please feel free to pm me with any questions you have.
(Sis, where have you been hiding this thread? 😀 I like it!)
A
Allycat
Guest
Wow, never knew this thread exsited otherwise I would have replied sooner, because this is what I like best!
I was born into a liberal christian family, my mom and dad believe, but slowly but surely I lost my faith. I think there is something up there, but this goes beyond the point where we can think off with our brains, so kinda impossible to explain. I believe that Allah, Gog, Jaweh ... whatever you call him/her is all the same, all different names to call the one/ones of the beyond, whatever rituals you have doesn't matter. In all believes there are aspect that I say of, those could be real, but some that I think of are nonsense!
Yes! B/A has influenced my beliefs in the beyond. Because it got me wondering wether they are really good or evil, if they're all about good, why don't they help us out, why do some people have such misserable lifes. And in B/A the hidden philosophy has allways been, that good and evil are very relative. I that has become my believe as well, the beyond is not good nor evil, it's grey ... without good there would be no evil and vice versa. On the other hand, the beyond is incomprehansible and there might be only good ... who knows?
I was born into a liberal christian family, my mom and dad believe, but slowly but surely I lost my faith. I think there is something up there, but this goes beyond the point where we can think off with our brains, so kinda impossible to explain. I believe that Allah, Gog, Jaweh ... whatever you call him/her is all the same, all different names to call the one/ones of the beyond, whatever rituals you have doesn't matter. In all believes there are aspect that I say of, those could be real, but some that I think of are nonsense!
Yes! B/A has influenced my beliefs in the beyond. Because it got me wondering wether they are really good or evil, if they're all about good, why don't they help us out, why do some people have such misserable lifes. And in B/A the hidden philosophy has allways been, that good and evil are very relative. I that has become my believe as well, the beyond is not good nor evil, it's grey ... without good there would be no evil and vice versa. On the other hand, the beyond is incomprehansible and there might be only good ... who knows?
~ FaithFull ~
Having inpure thoughts
buffyandangel4eva
B/A's the point
do they believe in god?
my theory is that there is no god or a true religion there and the heaven and cross things are just noticed someway sacred an´d entered into the christian world by the first ppl who noticed them.
my theory is that there is no god or a true religion there and the heaven and cross things are just noticed someway sacred an´d entered into the christian world by the first ppl who noticed them.
wicca
One of the things buffy has done i think in the uk at least is bring Wicca to light. especially for younger people who had never heard of it before. Ok the show doesnt give it an accurate portrayal but i bet there are a few people who have got into it through hearing about it on buffy. Wicca has been around for a fair while here but over the past few years its gained a lot of popularity amongst the younger generation.(god that makes me sound so old)
As for myself I have my own beliefs and I find they work better than most religions i have came across.
By the way can i just say this is a fairly deep topic and it's nice to see so many different viewpoints on it.
One of the things buffy has done i think in the uk at least is bring Wicca to light. especially for younger people who had never heard of it before. Ok the show doesnt give it an accurate portrayal but i bet there are a few people who have got into it through hearing about it on buffy. Wicca has been around for a fair while here but over the past few years its gained a lot of popularity amongst the younger generation.(god that makes me sound so old)
As for myself I have my own beliefs and I find they work better than most religions i have came across.
By the way can i just say this is a fairly deep topic and it's nice to see so many different viewpoints on it.
buffyandangel4eva
B/A's the point
Re: wicca
i completely agree. actually i believe that wiccas do have power. in our country a famous.... (insert me not being good at english) extra sense died about a year ago, maybe four, not sure, bad memory. may she rest in peace. her name was luule viilma. maybe heard of her? oh, and don't get me wrong, she wasn't/isn't wicca.
i completely agree. actually i believe that wiccas do have power. in our country a famous.... (insert me not being good at english) extra sense died about a year ago, maybe four, not sure, bad memory. may she rest in peace. her name was luule viilma. maybe heard of her? oh, and don't get me wrong, she wasn't/isn't wicca.
Originally posted by Gaunt
One of the things buffy has done i think in the uk at least is bring Wicca to light. especially for younger people who had never heard of it before. Ok the show doesnt give it an accurate portrayal but i bet there are a few people who have got into it through hearing about it on buffy. Wicca has been around for a fair while here but over the past few years its gained a lot of popularity amongst the younger generation.(god that makes me sound so old)
As for myself I have my own beliefs and I find they work better than most religions i have came across.
By the way can i just say this is a fairly deep topic and it's nice to see so many different viewpoints on it.
Wicca Will
Buffy & Angel forever.
I think the reason for not mentioning religion on the show is because there is so much bitterness and hatred in the world because of it and most of the world's wars and problems is about religion and peoples beliefs.
I don't think it's because Buffy and the scoobies don't believe in God, I think it's more to do with Joss not wanting to start any trouble over it and because some people are so prejudiced that they would stop watching the show because one of the characters was a certain religion.
I don't think it's because Buffy and the scoobies don't believe in God, I think it's more to do with Joss not wanting to start any trouble over it and because some people are so prejudiced that they would stop watching the show because one of the characters was a certain religion.
Spike Lover
Buffy fanatic ! ! !
I dont believe that at all. I think if the very few people who would stop watching because a character was a certain religion, they are not worth it. There are very few who would do so. And willows jewish so any anti-semitic people . . . tough.
I just think religion doesnt have a big part to play. I think with all the traditional religions, the idea of vampire, demons and gods dont really fit in! Lol, therefore the major religions, if practised stritcly, would not make any sense in the whle context of the show!
🙂
I just think religion doesnt have a big part to play. I think with all the traditional religions, the idea of vampire, demons and gods dont really fit in! Lol, therefore the major religions, if practised stritcly, would not make any sense in the whle context of the show!
🙂