Does Buffy decline as a character?

[Robb Stark]

Been thinking about this for a while now, and it's kind of become an opinion formulated over a few things. In S1, I think Buffy is an excellent character. By S2 and S3, she's one of the best leads I've ever seen. It helps that those are my favorite seasons and the story is so excellent both years, but I really feel like Buffy was an iconic character in those seasons. After S3 though, it feels like she begins to go downhill a bit. She never gets to the point for me where I'd classify her as a "bad" character, but I've been feeling like she never has the depth or strength past the third season, and it only declines as the series progresses. Now granted, from S5 on there's a lot altered with her after the introduction of Dawn, so I'm sure that has something to do with the shift.

By S6 and S7 (which I actually don't think are "bad" seasons either, and do enjoy), the, I don't know how to phrase it, mystique is gone I guess. I feel like, as character, both Angel and Spike really surpass her. It's tough to really finger down a concrete reason why. It almost feels like the writers ran out of interesting things to do with Buffy (especially in S7) and chose a direction to take her in which felt forced and awkward. Contrast that with Angel on his own series.

Again, this isn't a hate-on-Buffy thread. I love Buffy. But as time has wore on I guess I've seen a lot more of her flaws than I used to, and that's something I don't get with Angel and Spike.

 

[Kanazaka]

I kind of see what you mean. During the last two seasons of "Buffy", I felt that she was less heroic. It might have to do with what Spike said about Buffy being changed when she was brought back. She seemed much less empathetic, even when she was fighting evil. In fact, it seemed that fighting evil became more of a chore than a passion. Perhaps when Buffy realized that she would never stop fighting evil, her heart wasn't quite in it anymore, and she began to go through the motions. Angel fights for redemption and the possibility of no longer being a vampire. Buffy fights for ... what? Ultimately, I think, it's just the good fight, with no desire or expectation for a reward (as we saw at the end of Season Eight). I think Angel might just want it more.

 

[Blaze]

I'm going to be in the minority here, but I actually thinks Buffy becomes better as a character as the seasons progress (excluding the comics, and possibly s7 because I thought that was a bit of a mess for character development). The thing is, I love Buffy s1-3, but she's the first character on TV to ever depict the way I feel with my depression. My friends don't see it, just like Buffy, but it really eats you inside. Her self destructive nature in s6 is something I've never really seen done like that in other shows. Sure, the depression storyline was done on many shows, but never have I seen a superhero depicted with those kind of problems, which to me, made me relate to her so much more.

Aside from that, I love Buffy in s5, I love her love for Dawn, everything from her reaction to her mother dying to having to care for her baby sister just made me think a lot higher of Buffy. Actually, she used to be one of my least favorite character, but upon re-watching and after seeing her growth and the stuff she had to go through, she became one of my favorite. Definitely can identify with her the best in later seasons.

I thought in s1-3, she was this fun, quirky, spunky character, a perfect protagonist, but I'm glad they made her grow up the way she did. I've been put into situations where I had to grow up faster than I should have, just like Buffy, so I do believe her character is better rounded in later seasons. Of course her character goes downhill in the sense that she's a lot darker, but I like that about her.

Also, I understand what you mean about Angel and Spike. I do believe those overall were better characters (speaking of Angel on AtS, not on BtVS).

 

[EVIL UU]

I think that Buffy loses her mystique when she stops transgressing, I'd say around season three, four. She gets stuck in the same place. Willow ( and other characters as well ) on the other hand keeps on pushing, keeps clawing, keeps becoming more and more, keeps reinventing herself, even though sometimes she gets burned, she's always on the move. Buffy stands still, only becoming more tired and traumatized, never truly dealing with her numerous issues and traumas.

A character so stale and stagnant has to be become less captivating after a while.

 

[Kean]

I think that Buffy loses her mystique when she stops transgressing, I'd say around season three, four. She gets stuck in the same place. Willow ( and other characters as well ) on the other hand keeps on pushing, keeps clawing, keeps becoming more and more, keeps reinventing herself, even though sometimes she gets burned, she's always on the move. Buffy stands still, only becoming more tired and traumatized, never truly dealing with her numerous issues and traumas.

Why do you think Buffy got stuck?

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=7585]Kean[/MENTION]

Why do you think Buffy got stuck?

Because she's got to like it that way. Buffy's fine. She craves pain and suffering, what's a better place to be than the hell mouth for a slayer with a martyr complex? It's perfect. It's like an addiction. To change and transgress she would have to admit that she has a problem, like Willow did, but that's not going to happen because Buffy thinks that she's pretty much perfect. This is I think the main reason but of course there's more to it. What's Buffy's personal life goal? She doesn't exactly have one:

It's all mootville for me. No matter what my aptitude test says, we already know my deal.

Do the words 'sealed in fate' ring any bells for you, Will? Why go there?

I'm sorry, it's just...unless Hell freezes over and every vamp in Sunnydale puts in for early retirement, I'd say my future is pretty much a non-issue.

As in, I'm never getting out of here. I kept thinking if I stopped the Mayor or...but I was kidding myself. I mean, there is always going to be something. I'm a Sunnydale girl, no other choice.

By the way, Buffy actually had a goal in her life, it's from the movie but I think it's still very relevant:

All I want to do is graduate from high school, go to Europe, marry Christian Slater, and die. Now it may not sound too great to a sconehead like you, but I think it's swell.

For goodness' sake, even her high school celebrity crush is woman assaulting, drug abusing sexual harasser. Just...unbelievable. Anyway, lets look at Willow:

And I just realized that that's what I want to do. Fight evil, help people. I mean, I-I think it's worth doing. (...)And, besides, I have a shot at being a bad ass Wiccan, and what better place to learn?

Willow has precise goals. They push and motivate her.

What I think makes Buffy's situation even worse are two issues: lack of stress management and lack of support system. Again, lets look at Willow. How does Willow deal with stress? Well, sex and drugs. OK, sometimes it gets ugly, when she rapes her girlfriend or has to dry out for a while but hey, it actually works for her and compared to what she goes through, her damage to personality is pretty much nonexistent. In season 7, even with all her control problems Willow is still infinitely healthier than Buffy. What does Buffy do? Generally, sex leads to badness ( even with Riley (!) in "Where The Wild Things Are" ) leads to more stress and she can't even get properly drunk without turning into a cave woman, good heavens. Those Tai Chi sessions with Angel and meditation with Giles and Willow? She should be doing this like every day, twice a day, brushing for the teeth, meditation for the soul. No, the shit just keeps on piling up and it's a huge problem because Buffy lacks support system past season 3. She has Xander with his pep talks and Willow is always there when she physically falls apart but this is all for Buffy the slayer, not Buffy the girl. So, what happened? Buffy lost the ability to trust the gang, it started when she didn't outright tell them that Angel was back in season 3. She keeps withholding information from Willow and Xander or just lying to them in season 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7. They're either in this together or Buffy's alone and she chooses to be alone, because again, martyr complex. That leaves her with no permanent emotional support, no stable shoulder to cry on or that somebody who's always there for her to pour her heart out to. She doesn't need one in season 4 but of all the people it's Dawn in season 5, Tara in season 6 and Holden Webster in season 7 because at this point in Buffy's life she's completely alone. There's nobody.

 

[Taake]

Yes, for me she does. I'm not sure what it is, not really, but she is my absolute favorite character in season 1-3 which is why those seasons are the best in my opinion. Then she loses her 'pop', or something, and I feel that she continously becomes overshadowed by the other characters.

Perhaps it's that awkward growing up phase that I'm disagree with... your early twenties are usually a struggle (much like your teens), I guess I don't like her choices... honestly I might have to think about what it is what bugs me about her later on but it's something. I still love her, I really do, but she isn't my favorite anymore.

 

[Himiko]

I'm going to rant about S7 again here, sorry 😛

I think that when we compare Buffy of S1-3 to Buffy of S7, there is a definite decline there. In Seasons 1-3- in fact, Series 4 does this, too, and even S5- we have a Buffy who questions authority. Who steps up to fight the good fight, but who fights for her own right to have a life, too. She's put into a position where she has the power to fight against evil, and to save the world, and the best thing about her in the early seasons, is that she does it on her own terms. She fights, not as a soldier, but as a young woman who wants a future, friends, family and love. And, whilst it is her Slayer powers that give her the power to fight a lot of these creatures, and whilst the resources of Giles and the Watcher's Council help her to discover the best ways of fighting, her unconventional approach- the help of her friends, the refusal to just buckle down and follow orders- is actually immensely helpful in keeping her alive and giving her something to fight for.

Then we look at S7. Buffy is now in the position of leader. She still fights the good fight, but her friends (who have helped her on multiple occasions) are expected to fall in line, regardless of how bad her decisions might be - and it gets Xander hurt. The Potential Slayers are not expected to question her, because they are soldiers, and have to accept that they might die (even though Buffy in earlier seasons is the girl who questions authority, puts her foot down and fights to save the world AND have a future). It just... it feels like the awesome characteristics that Buffy displayed in the earlier seasons that were shown as strengths (questioning orders, having a support network of friends, etc) are suddenly just cast aside, in favour of an idea where Buffy is the undisputed leader, where questioning orders that don't seem sensible is a bad thing, where friends cannot be trusted unless they follow you unquestioningly, and it's just so frustrating to see from a character like Buffy.

Now, I get that Buffy changes due to her experiences of Season 6. Death no longer seems like a burden to her- in fact, life is probably more of a burden than anything else. Life, and the fight against evil. Maybe that's why she doesn't sympathize with the Potentials and her friends wanting to stay alive? Maybe she looks back and wonders why she didn't just follow orders, dispatch the monster in the most efficient way possible, and if she died in the process, then at least she would be at peace. In that case, then I guess the changes in her character make sense- though I wish S7 had explored that more, if that was meant to be the case. But I have a hard time looking at Buffy in S7 and seeing the same hero as in the earlier series, even though she still fights against evil as before.

So, I think she declined as a character, definitely, but I think it was more of a sudden jump than a gradual decline. In S6, Buffy is much changed by her experiences, and either this carries over to S7 when she is put into a leadership position, as opposed to simply having to take care of her own life, and leads her to make decisions that she wouldn't have made prior to her death, or the writing in S7 was simply poor.