Does Buffy really like to be hurt?

[Robb Stark]

People throw this out constantly, almost exclusively in Angel/Spike discussions, and I can't really figure out why. I've frequently read the argument that Buffy secretly like or enjoys pain. Put bluntly, is there any factual evidence to support this, or is it just a loose theory based on two of Buffy's relationships ending badly (even though you could make the argument very well that her time with Spike did not end poorly in S7, although that gets murky)?

In another thread, [MENTION=12614]thetopher[/MENTION] made several points I really agree with. Buffy's period in S6 was a highly traumatic portion of her life, and she lashed out in a number of destructive ways. That isn't representative of her as a person though. It's a highly selected, singular time. Evaluating other parts of her history, even just her romantic history, and the "Buffy digs pain" case kind of falls apart. Buffy deeply loved Angel, but had no idea that he could lose his soul. That's hardly her fault. Her relationship with Riley was hugely positive for the bulk of their time together. She was able to enjoy sex with Satsu for what it was, indicating there isn't anything overly destructive about that.

So where does this perception come from? Is it because a soulless Spike says it a few times? That's the only real origin I can trace for it. If so, that's silly. Spike clearly has his own motivations and interests in S6 which run in direct opposition to Buffy's. He's not exactly a reliable judge of character in that instance.

 

[thetopher]

This comes from the conversation Buffy has with Soulled Spike, when he's tied up in 'Never Leave Me' In S7.
Because soulled Spike says it, a lot of people think it must be true, because of how insightful Spike is. 🙄

But, really Spike isn't insightful when it comes to Buffy, he might admire her, he might love her, but he doesn't know her. Not half a well as he thinks.

For Spike's benefit, he might've been trying to convince Buffy to stake him (he'd just found out he killed a lot of people during his 'black outs'), and he was dismissing the connection the two of them had. The reason why Buffy couldn't stake him, even after everything he's done, both as unsoulled, chipped and soulled Spike.

 

[Kean]

She has been hurt a lot but I don't see much evidence to her liking it.

Some would argue that she should have "learned her lesson" and avoid situations that could hurt her, but short of not existing anymore I have no idea how a person, especially Buffy, lives a life and avoids being hurt.

 

[white avenger]

She may not like being hurt, but by now she's very familiar with the feeling. Course, the only sure way to avoid being hurt in this context is to stop caring for anyone, just on the chance that she will be hurt again because her feelings, and I seriously doubt that anyone wants to see that.

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=11975]Robb Stark[/MENTION]

So where does this perception come from?

It comes from Buffy saying it:

isn't that where the fire comes from? Can a nice, safe relationship be that intense? I know it's nuts, but...part of me believes that real love and passion have to go hand in hand with pain and fighting ( "Pangs" )

It's like... I wanted to be punished. I wanted to hurt like I thought I deserved. ( "Conversations with Dead People" )

And this is not just about Spike or Buffy's depression. Check out Buffy's completely irrational attempt at getting jailed in "Dead Things" for example.

 

[asilentliaison]

I don't believe she likes being hurt. In regard to her wanting to be punished, I just chalk that up to accountability. If she or others feel that she deserves to be punished, she's not afraid of taking her lumps; she'll accept and embrace them, as it's really the only way to move forward.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I dont think so.

I mean the only ones that hurts her are Angel and Riley.

Angel becoming to Angelus was incredibly painful for her and realising whatever she realised when Riley was about to leave looked like it upset her.

There didn't seem to be much hurt with Spike, she was using him in season 6, she debased herself, becasue thats what she felt she deserved and the attempted rape was an entirely different kind of hurt, I dont see any romantic elements on Buffys side in season 7. The only time there was anything involving an actual relationship with Spike was in season 6, and it wasn't a real relationship, so I dont think she's ever cared enough for Spike to be in a position to hurt her.

 

[thetopher]

[MENTION=11975]Robb Stark[/MENTION]


It comes from Buffy saying it:

isn't that where the fire comes from? Can a nice, safe relationship be that intense? I know it's nuts, but...part of me believes that real love and passion have to go hand in hand with pain and fighting ( "Pangs" )

It's like... I wanted to be punished. I wanted to hurt like I thought I deserved. ( "Conversations with Dead People" )

And this is not just about Spike or Buffy's depression. Check out Buffy's completely irrational attempt at getting jailed in "Dead Things" for example.

In 'Pangs' isn't she talking about emotional pain, drama, angst, not physical pain/hurt (which is what Spike refers to). She then goes on to say she's 'over' the whole bad-boy thing by the end of the episode. She falls for Riley, and the reason their relationship fails has nothing to do with 'emotional pain' and everythin to with miscommunication.

Notice how she says 'wanted' to be punished/hurt...it was a phase, she got over it, her depression, the whole S6 wallowing thing, she got over Spike. It's a false arguement to treat any S6 behaviour as typical Buffy behaviour, she loses control because she is depressed/hates herself for sleeping with Spike.

The whole arguement is Spike projection, its that simple.

 

[Blaze]

She goes through a lot of pain, and when that happens you get used to it, and sometimes ends up in similar situation (aka you don't seem to learn from it). It's the same principle as people going back to abusive relationship even knowing that it's bad to them.

But I don't think she likes pain, I don't think anyone likes pain. She's put herself in bad situation but that wasn't driven by her wanting the pain. It was driven by other motives, some of which brought pain as a backlash.

We can't analyse Buffy solemnly based on her depression and some of her insecurities in s6, as I'm sure she doesn't like being like that (she expressed on multiple account being guilty of some of her isolation, but wanting to change that). She might not be able to always help being painless, but I'm sure given the choice she'd chose to be as pain free as possible.

Also, concerning the boyfriends. Her relationship with Angel before Angelus was a pain free one, and mainly positive. Both Riley and Satsu were also pain free and positive aside from some regular relationship issues we all go through. Her relationship with souled Spike in s7 is also pretty positive. I think the argument that she likes pain in relationship is pretty false. Yes things ended badly with most of them, and s6 was a mess, but over a 7+ year course, it wasn't all bad.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Define "hurt" for me. Do you mean physically (like, sexually) or emotionally?

 

[ladydorotea]

Something that is NOT this?

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Anguisette

As in - 'finds no erotic, physical, emotional or any other kind of latentl-y pleasurable satisfaction in: having one's nerve system screaming: your nails are being pulled out, you are being flayed alive, your burning , your flesh is horribly damaged, your self-esteem is being ruined, your is being metabolism thrown out of whack, you are either are going to die shortly or will have your life shortened significantly ? I know it is sort of too pragmatic , but it is also very tangible?

 

[Robb Stark]

Something that is NOT this?

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Anguisette

As in - 'finds no erotic, physical, emotional or any other kind of latentl-y pleasurable satisfaction in: having one's nerve system screaming: your nails are being pulled out, you are being flayed alive, your burning , your flesh is horribly damaged, your self-esteem is being ruined, your is being metabolism thrown out of whack, you are either are going to die shortly or will have your life shortened significantly ? I know it is sort of too pragmatic , but it is also very tangible?

I'm sorry but...I don't really know what you're talking about here. Can you clarify at all?

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=12614]thetopher[/MENTION]
Where does even Spike mention physical pain? Here's what he says in "Normal Again":

I hope you don't think this antidote's gonna rid you of that nasty martyrdom. See I figured it out, luv. You can't help yourself. You're not drawn to the dark like I thought. You're addicted to the misery. That's why you won't tell your pals about us. Might actually have to be happy if you did. They'd either understand and help you, God forbid, or drive you out where you could finally be at peace, in the dark, with me. Either way, you'd be better off for it, but you're too twisted for that. Let yourself live, already. And stop with the bloody hero trip for a second, we'd all be the better for it.

Compare this to the conversation from "Pangs" "Something Blue":

BUFFY: I don't know. I really like being around him, you know? And I think he cares about me but I just feel like something's missing.
WILLOW: He's not making you miserable?
BUFFY: Exactly. Riley seems so solid. Like he wouldn't cause me heartache.
WILLOW: Get out. Get out while there's still time.
BUFFY: I know...I have to get away from that bad boy thing. There's no good there. Seeing Angel in LA even for five minutes...hello to the pain.
WILLOW: The pain is not a friend.
BUFFY: But I can't help thinking - isn't that where the fire comes from? Can a nice, safe relationship be that intense? I know it's nuts, but part of me believes that real love and passion have to go hand in hand with pain and fighting.

Spike's on the money. He pretty much repeats what Buffy said herself two seasons ago.

 

[thetopher]

Spike's relationship with Buffy in S6, is borderline sadomasachistic- two very damaged individuals where pain/fighting is mixed in with everything else. (Buffy refers to this in 'CWDP' btw)
So of course Spike is refering to this (as well as other things), because he's refering to his personal experiences about being in a relationship with her.

So no, Spike isn't 'on the money', after 'Something Blue' Buffy has a (relatively) normal relationship with Riley, that has nothing to do with darkness/misery/pain. She doesn't seek out abnormal relationships. Angel was the exception.
Buffy went out with Parker. Then Riley. She usually goes for normal guys, not 'bad boys' who are going to cause her misery. She even flirted with a relationship with Ben in S5, thinking he was normal.
Spike in S6, is trying to form a connection with Buffy, both physically and emotionally. Being a demon, the only way he can do that is try and bring her down to his level. Saying she's a 'creature of darkness' and other nonsense.
Two out-of-context conversations does not make for a solid case. 😉

Buffy had two dark relationships, both with vampires, just because they're the most popular 'ships doesn't mean that their the only ones she has (Parker, Riley, Ben, Satsu, even Xander have all been, in one way or another, a romantic interest to Buffy and vice versa).
People seem to mistaking the need for a romantic storyline to have angst/drama with the characters need to have those things.