Does "God" exist in the Buffyverse?

[Robb Stark]

I've always kind of wondered this. Clearly, we see crosses and holy water kill or harm vampires in almost every episode, but they never really specify any sort of "god" in the traditional sense at all (Glory notwithstanding). It's also pretty clear that Buffy, Angel and the main cast aren't religious. Are the Powers that Be the "gods" of the Buffyverse?

 

[Once more wNeNe]

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...6028122735.160025.243550937735&type=3&theater

Just a funny I found. I think no to your question though. I think the Powers That Be are kinda god like, nut no one specific god.

 

[FaithsFollower]

I'm thinking no. It's fairly obvious from how the "Caleb" character was developed and it's also obvious throughout the series that Joss clearly has something against Christianity [in general].

At least, that what I think anyway.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

From "Conversations with Dead People":

HOLDEN
Oh my god.

BUFFY
Oh your god what?

HOLDEN
Well, not MY god, 'cause I defy him
and all his works -- does he exist,
by the way? Is there word on that?

BUFFY
Nothing solid.

(Remember, this was coming from a girl who'd spent a summer in Heaven. So, I think the existence of God is meant to be completely ambiguous in the Buffyverse.)

 

[Valjavertjinn]

I always figured that The Powers covered that role.

 

[Aimee]

I would say no to a single god. After Glory, Jasmine and Ilyria I figured there were Gods plural with a scattering of supporters here and there. Also multiple different hell dimensions etc

 

[prophecygrrl]

God probably exists for all the people in the Buffyverse world who believe in something like that.

On a supernatural note, though, I figured Buffy, the Scoobies, and whoever else was aware of demons/dimensions/etc. were happily pagan or agnostic. The fact that crosses and other typically Christian symbols could harm vampires just meant that modern theology or myth came from something mystical.

 

[Taake]

I would say that no the conventional idea of God doesn't necessarily exist in the Buffyverse. And I don't think it was relevant to the show either, if anything it would only have opened up a whole new set of questions that weren't necessarily pertinent to address on a show such as Btvs.

 

[EVIL UU]

Which god?

Gods do exist in Buffyverse. Ancient Egyptian gods, Nordic gods, Ancient Greek and Roman deities, even some Japanese and Tibetan ones. Gods and Goddesses are a source of magic, various characters invoke their names while spellcasting through 7 seasons of the show. Some of the deities even talk back.

As to Judeo-Christian god?

Nothing solid.

Excuse me, what? Crosses repel vampires, Christian crosses, of course one could argue that cross is a universal symbol that doesn't have to be associated with various versions of Christianity. That's fine but what about holy water? Holy water is magical, it is created during a ritual by a priest of a deity, known as um..."god". The usefulness of holy water proves the existence of a power behind that ritual. So, a Christian god does exist in Buffyverse but the characters simply don't care.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

Excuse me, what? Crosses repel vampires, Christian crosses, of course one could argue that cross is a universal symbol that doesn't have to be associated with various versions of Christianity. That's fine but what about holy water? Holy water is magical, it is created during a ritual by a priest of a deity, known as um..."god". The usefulness of holy water proves the existence of a power behind that ritual. So, a Christian god does exist in Buffyverse but the characters simply don't care.

Or, it's something other than God that gives that stuff power over vampires. The cross is a very basic symbol that probably represented a lot of other things way before Christianity... which is when vampires first appeared.

Over 95% of the world's population believes in some form of higher power. About 4 billion... more than half of the people on the planet... believe in the Judeo-Christian-Muslim version of God. All of that shared belief could manifest as real power, whether or not God really exists or who or what he actually is.

Joss himself is an atheist and a humanist, but most of his fans aren't, so I doubt he'll ever deal directly with the issue of God in the Buffyverse. But you never know.

The "Gods" who exist in the Buffyverse are nothing like "God"... they are the way they're depicted in mythology. Ancient superheroes and supervillains who are very powerful, but capable of being stopped and even killed.

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=8509]AndrewCrossett[/MENTION]

All of that shared belief could manifest as real power, whether or not God really exists or who or what he actually is.

No. Not according to canon, you're just making stuff up.

Joss himself is an atheist

So am I and so what? The lore in Buffy outright proves the existence of a monotheistic deity.

I doubt he'll ever deal directly with the issue of God in the Buffyverse.

Of course not. It's a classic "have the cake and eat the cake". "Buffy" takes ideas from sources created with the existence of a monotheistic god in mind but never deals with the consequences of transplanting these ideas. But honestly, this is Buffy and nothing makes sense, ever. The lore is an incoherent postmodernist cluster****.

There were some licensed books that tried to sort that issue out. Any bookworm willing to clear it up?

The "Gods" who exist in the Buffyverse are nothing like "God"

This guy would like a word with you.

 

[dexeded]

So am I and so what? The lore in Buffy outright proves the existence of a monotheistic deity.

Um, no. Whether or not the Christian god exists in the Buffyverse, it is certain that there are in fact many gods. Glory, Illyria, pagan gods (like Hecate), Egyptian gods (like Osiris)... the list goes on.

I would also think that [MENTION=10521]prophecygrrl[/MENTION]'s view (below quote) on the nonexistence of the Christian god is also very possible.

On a supernatural note, though, I figured Buffy, the Scoobies, and whoever else was aware of demons/dimensions/etc. were happily pagan or agnostic. The fact that crosses and other typically Christian symbols could harm vampires just meant that modern theology or myth came from something mystical.

 

[Xin Rong]

I was always curious about this subject... mainly because of the cross/holy water thing, but also because in the episode with hyena people, giles talks about hyena's not being allowed on noah's arc because they were an unlawful cross breed between cat and dog. This kind of substantiates the bible, or at least stories from the bible.

Although I'd say the show more reflects a post modernist 'pick n mix' philosophy... different parts of different religions all put together... the general idea seems to be live a good life, and you'll go to a heaven, regardless of your religion. It's a little bit similar to the way religions/heavens are presented in Xena, although this is an area dealt with much more closesly in the latters show.

 

[white avenger]

With Joss being a very outspoken atheist, I would be really surprised if there was ever any affirmation of the existence of the Judeo-Christian concept of God. In fact, I am really somewhat surprised that holy artifacts such as crosses and holy water work in the Buffyverse, though that could be attributed to simple concession to established vampire lore on his part. There was a scene in, I believe, "Who Are You?" where several vampires take hostages in a church and one says something to the effect that he had feared churches ever since he was turned, but now realizes that there really wasn't anything there.

It has always seemed to me that, if there were a "First Evil" in the Buffyverse, there must, simply for the sake of cosmic balance, be a "First Good" as well, and that that would be about as close as we would ever get to seeing an actual equivalent of God.

 

[dexeded]

@EVIL UU disagrees: I meant "monotheistic deity" as a concept as it's shorter to write than Islamic-Judeo-Christian-whatever-god not as an actual monotheistic, one, true god, because there are indeed many gods in Buffyverse, just read my previous post, geez.

Dude, monotheistic is by definition, as you say, 'one, true god', so using that term is just plain wrong, even if you didn't mean it that way.

 

[AndrewCrossett]

No. Not according to canon, you're just making stuff up.

I said "could" not "does." It's speculation. There is no canon proof or non-proof of the existence of the Judeo-Christian God in the Buffyverse.

Yes, crosses and holy water hurt vampires. But fire hurts me, and that doesn't prove that the Heat Miser is real.

 

[Xin Rong]

It has always seemed to me that, if there were a "First Evil" in the Buffyverse, there must, simply for the sake of cosmic balance, be a "First Good" as well, and that that would be about as close as we would ever get to seeing an actual equivalent of God.

I used to think aswell... because the ptb seem to be the counter part to glory and illyria type beings, but then no real being seems contrary to the first. It reminded me of the creator in the wheel of time books, where there is a dark one who is the embodiment of evil, but then his opposite is never seen, instead the light creates a champion to battle the dark one...

 

[EVIL UU]

Yes, crosses and holy water hurt vampires. But fire hurts me, and that doesn't prove that the Heat Miser is real.

False analogy. Fire doesn't have magical properties, holy water in Buffyverse clearly does.

Again, holy water is created by priests of various religions in a ceremony that involves prayer. A prayer in this case works like a spell, Willow addresses Hekate or whatever to curse people or wash their brains and then rape them, a priest addresses "god" to turn regular H2O into holy water so Buffy can kill vampires with it. The process works in exactly the same way. The gods and goddesses that fuel Willow's fun do exist in Buffyverse, they're not just symbols or myths or legends. I think it's safe to assume that "god" behind sanctify water spell used by priests of various religions is also not a myth or a legend or a symbol for some other power but also actually exists. I guess it's just a really shy and humble "god".

To make things more fun, magic of other goddesses and gods cannot be used, while holy water still works perfectly in a supposedly magic-free and dimensionally cut-off world of season 9. I guess the "god" behind holy water simply doesn't give a single flying **** about dimensions, cosmic eggs and space sex.

Nothing solid, huh?

 

[AndrewCrossett]

We would have to know whether things sacred to other "good" spiritual traditions (besides the Judeo-Christian God) also work against vampires. Since BtVS takes place in an environment where that belief system is dominant, and things like crosses and holy water are readily available, we really can't know.

Vampires existed for thousands of years before there were any Christian crosses or holy water, but people managed to fight them. People in places like India and China (which between them have half of the world's population but not a lot in the way of crosses and holy water) must have some similar tools, or all the world's vampires would congregate in those areas for easy pickings.

 

[Xin Rong]

We would have to know whether things sacred to other "good" spiritual traditions (besides the Judeo-Christian God) also work against vampires. Since BtVS takes place in an environment where that belief system is dominant, and things like crosses and holy water are readily available, we really can't know.

Vampires existed for thousands of years before there were any Christian crosses or holy water, but people managed to fight them. People in places like India and China (which between them have half of the world's population but not a lot in the way of crosses and holy water) must have some similar tools, or all the world's vampires would congregate in those areas for easy pickings.

If other things worked then surely the watchers would have known, or some of the potentials, or even the slayers with their slayer dreams, as slayers come from all over the world