Does Willow Still 'Need' The Scoobies?

[Lyri]

(Not really sure if this should go here, Mods. Feel free to move. 🙂)

Considering the fact that Willow seems to have gotten her powers back permanently, this puts her back to a level of power that is WAY beyond anything Buffy could ever be capable of outside of her Twilight-incarnation.

This has brought up a lot of questions in the fandom, mostly that Willow is too powerful to fit in with Scoobie dynamic anymore - she's too powerful to be 'just' a supporting character to Buffy.

There has been a lot of talk about Willow 'needing' her own comic permanently, and I've even heard some people suggesting that the main characters should be switched - that Buffy should become the supporting character to Willow because Buffy can't keep up with Willow, power-wise.

But no one seems to be thinking of the Scoobies in terms of their friendship. Coupled with the thread that popped up here this week, it seems like people have forgotten that the Scoobies were friends first and world saviors second - and maybe even the Scoobies themselves have forgotten that.

Giving Willow her own series would take her away from her friends, and that's the big thing I noticed with her mini - she seemed very isolated, and I don't know if I'd be interested in a comic where it's just Willow, with no Buffy or Xander to support her.

So, what do you guys think? SHOULD Willow be given her own series? Is she too powerful to find a place among the Scoobies now? Assuming, of course, the Scoobies don't implode by the end of this season. Does Willow still need the Scoobies as her friends, rather than just demon fighting support?

 

[BuffyElevated]

Well I hate Willow by herself. LOL I haven't liked Willow since early Season 5, so if she got her own comic I'd never be interested in reading it.
I feel like the writers have lost the plot a little where the Scoobies' friendships are concerned... There are so many different subplots going on and while its understandable, it was always the characters' relationships with each other that kept me watching...

 

[iShower4free]

Yeah I agree that the plot line has definitely separated the scoobies where their friendship is concerned. Willow was so concerned about getting her own power back and Xander and Dawn were fighting for a normal life that they all just went their own ways. I think if Willow gets too powerful she will end up being an Illyria type character, too powerful to be around consistently but popping up now and then when the story-line calls for the big guns.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I'm in two minds about this.

The first one is, I'm a big Willow fan so I would love to see her in her own permanent series. Her character has developed to a point were she far outranks the rest of the scoobies on power, and it would be silly to the story to have her as a background player.

My second thought process was, Its always best when the gang our together, thats when the stories are best.

But then I also think as powerful as Willow is, we know were she's heading from Time of Your Life, so she needs to be around her friends to keep her grounded.

I guess I'd like to see her be Wolverined (Wolverine is in like a bazillion comic titles and couldn't practically fit them all in), give her, her own series but keep her part of the gang somehow.

 

[Lyri]

Her character has developed to a point were she far outranks the rest of the scoobies on power, and it would be silly to the story to have her as a background player.

But, see, that's the thing - Willow has been the most powerful character in this verse (with the exception of Illyria, possibly) since S5, and yet it's only now that talk of Willow 'needing' her own series is bubbling to the surface. She was SO powerful in S8 that she was able to turn Twilight into a toad, but she was still considered a supporting character.

Maybe I'm just annoyed at the suggestion by some people that Buffy should be pushed out of her own story in order to make Willow the main character. The main character of a show/series is not always the most powerful/smartest/strongest/whatever, and I think I'm slightly put out by the fact that people are using that excuse to prove that Buffy isn't worthy of being the main character anymore, and should step down to make way for Willow - or anyone for that matter.

But then I also think as powerful as Willow is, we know were she's heading from Time of Your Life, so she needs to be around her friends to keep her grounded.

I'm still not convinced that TOYL is 100% set in stone. Not only do I emphatically NOT want to see Willow end up like that, but I actually think it's really bad storytelling, telling us the ending before the story is over. It worked for Star Wars, but for this verse, I don't think it does, and I think I would actually be really, really mad at Willow if she knew what was in store for her in the future and did nothing to change it.

 

[brinkster130]

I always thought that the Scoobies helped keep Willow grounded. She has a tendency to be extremely selfish and power hungry with her magic so having others around who will hold her accountable for her actions is a good thing.

She certainly is a character with enough power to warrant her own series, but I still question her motives and her mission - what exactly are they? And how will she define those once she's away from Buffy and Xander?

 

[Black Eye Guy]

But, see, that's the thing - Willow has been the most powerful character in this verse (with the exception of Illyria, possibly) since S5, and yet it's only now that talk of Willow 'needing' her own series is bubbling to the surface. She was SO powerful in S8 that she was able to turn Twilight into a toad, but she was still considered a supporting character.

Maybe I'm just annoyed at the suggestion by some people that Buffy should be pushed out of her own story in order to make Willow the main character. The main character of a show/series is not always the most powerful/smartest/strongest/whatever, and I think I'm slightly put out by the fact that people are using that excuse to prove that Buffy isn't worthy of being the main character anymore, and should step down to make way for Willow - or anyone for that matter.

I do agree that she shouldn't take over, but I would like to see magic explored through Willow. Keep the slayer side with Buffy, but show us something we haven't seen yet with Willow.

I haven't read Willows spin off yet, but I get from your initial post she's got her powers back?
To me, it'd be weird to see the scoobies going into battle and Buffy taking on a bad guy while Willow is flying over head turning more into toads and basically being more effective in the battle then Buffy.

I think it worked in season 8 because we were just learning how powerful she was, she had been the most powerful for year now, but she now has, what she believes, total control over her powers so isn't afraid to use the, and in season 8 by the time she was going into big battles, a flying Buffy was alongside her, so there was a certain balance to it.

I think that in order to make Willow fit in with the group, they need to ground her ego, she thinks she can do anything - which she is justified to think, as she can. But I think we'd need to see Willow mess up with something and become a bit more afraid of her magic. Or if they have given her, her powers back they should be limited like Illyria.

In my opinion they made Willow their most "comic bookie" character in season 8 with the flying and super super magical power she wasn't afraid of anymore, and thy kinda jumped a bit to far with her in one go maybe.
To limit her now, is going to be a bit like back tracking, but I'd rather they did that then came up with stupid excuses why Willow isn't constantly saving the day.

I'm still not convinced that TOYL is 100% set in stone. Not only do I emphatically NOT want to see Willow end up like that, but I actually think it's really bad storytelling, telling us the ending before the story is over. It worked for Star Wars, but for this verse, I don't think it does, and I think I would actually be really, really mad at Willow if she knew what was in store for her in the future and did nothing to change it.

100% agree on both your points, I hate that they addressed TOYL so soon, it limits the story knowing whats going to happen. It's like coloring by numbers, all the pieces are there your just filling them in.
I think they are gonna have to address TOYL again, I think the fact that the First Slayer was talking to TOYL Buffy, in the dream space, in one of the issues in Season 9 is an indicator it's gonna come back up.

They haven't had a problem porting Buffy to more comic book like stories with season 8 and 9, so I think theres a possibility they'll bring in an alternate dimension story to deal with it, which will have good and bad things if thats how it will play out.

 

[white avenger]

No matter how powerful the wizard, sorcerer, witch, or magician might be, throughout all of literature, they have always needed the warriors in order to accomplish their missions, Merlin always needed the Knights of the Round Table, Gandalf always needed the Fellowship of the Ring, and Willow will always need the Scoobies to be complete. Magical force has to be counterbalanced with physical power. That goes way beyond the Laws of the Buffyverse. It's a Major Law Of Fantasy Literature.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

No matter how powerful the wizard, sorcerer, witch, or magician might be, throughout all of literature, they have always needed the warriors in order to accomplish their missions, Merlin always needed the Knights of the Round Table, Gandalf always needed the Fellowship of the Ring, and Willow will always need the Scoobies to be complete. Magical force has to be counterbalanced with physical power. That goes way beyond the Laws of the Buffyverse. It's a Major Law Of Fantasy Literature.

Harry Potter and those girls on Charmed did alright 😉

 

[Black Eye Guy]

white avenger agrees: Potter was his own warrior, and th witches on Charmed had an angel on their team

Yeah thats kinda what I mean, if Willow was in her own more permanent comic, she's be her own warrior too. Thats why I think we'd have to see a different side to the universe, one based in magic, and the battles would be more based in magic then the physical.

Also Leo was sent away for any of the fighting in Charmed.

I always thought that the Scoobies helped keep Willow grounded. She has a tendency to be extremely selfish and power hungry with her magic so having others around who will hold her accountable for her actions is a good thing.

Yeah thats one of the things that bugged me about the TOYL story, why aren't her friends more worried about the Willow buffy saw in the future. We know she's power hungry, her going off on a mission just to get her powers back show that she still is.

She certainly is a character with enough power to warrant her own series, but I still question her motives and her mission - what exactly are they? And how will she define those once she's away from Buffy and Xander?

Yeah I agree, thats kinda why I was thinking she'd need to mess up or something again, she'd need a purpose to actually warrant her own story.

 

[tec]

Yes Willow does deserver her own story BUT her ties with her friends is still very strong and she can still be a scoobie and still be the most powerful person on the planet

She wont forget why she chose to be by Buffy side and why she still fights the good fight
I think theres away for Willow to do what she needs to do with out looseing her connections with her friends unlike Llyra she has not lost her humanaty
She still Willow at her core

 

[white avenger]

Yeah thats kinda what I mean, if Willow was in her own more permanent comic, she's be her own warrior too. Thats why I think we'd have to see a different side to the universe, one based in magic, and the battles would be more based in magic then the physical.

Also Leo was sent away for any of the fighting in Charmed.

I never really watched "Charmed," si I'll just take your word for that.

Now as for Willow, I have no objection to her becoming her own warrior if she can pull it off without ever going dark on us again, like she has done in the only two times that she did anything of that sort on the series (against Glory and much worse against Warren). Dresden manages to fill both roles, so it's not unbelievable that Willow could do the same thing. I would suggest, however, that there should be some sort of process shown, if only in a few time lapse type panels, with her going through the process of learning actually to fight. Is there any chance that Joss could work out a deal between Marvel and Dark Horse where Willow spends a few months with Natasha Romanov training her in fighting techniques? Willow could be great in one of those black jump suits.

More realistically, she could team up with Kate Lockley, who was shown in IDE's "After The Fall" arc to now be a demon fighter, for a few issues or even as a recurring character, and learn the skills that she might need from her (I always liked Kate, and would love to see her back again, even if only for a short time )

 

[tec]

if we gonna do team up Zatanna and Willow with Zats on again off again boyfriend Constantine

 

[Tofik vampie]

honestly I can't imagine Willow being in "Buffy" comics - she would completely overshadowed Buffy. She is not only much more powerful that Buffy but also demonstrably smarter that Ms. Summers. No, I don't think that you can have Buffy as protagonist and have Willow in this same comic with Buffy - Willow who is currently in every single way better than person who should be main hero. What's the point?

---------- Post added at 12:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:00 AM ----------

Giving Willow her own series would take her away from her friends, and that's the big thing I noticed with her mini - she seemed very isolated, and I don't know if I'd be interested in a comic where it's just Willow, with no Buffy or Xander to support her.

Well, Angel was part of the Scoobies until the end of season 3, but he left and he got his own series and his own gang. This same should happen with Willow.

 

[Lyri]

honestly I can't imagine Willow being in "Buffy" comics - she would completely overshadowed Buffy.

Being the main character of a comic - or show - doesn't depend on how powerful or smart or clever said character is. It has to do with a characters actions and what they do with the power and smarts they do have. And right now, Buffy has done a lot more with the power that she does have than Willow has done with hers.

She is not only much more powerful that Buffy

Buffy hasn't been the most powerful character since at LEAST season 5. And yet, she's still the main character.

Angel wasn't the most powerful character in his show in S5 and he was still the main character.

Power doesn't - and shouldn't - have anything to do with whether or not a character deserves to be the main character or now.

but also demonstrably smarter that Ms. Summers.

Buffy has never, EVER been the smartest person in the show or the comics, so that theory doesn't hold water for me I'm afraid.

No, I don't think that you can have Buffy as protagonist and have Willow in this same comic with Buffy - Willow who is currently in every single way better than person who should be main hero. What's the point?

In your opinion, but I'm afraid I don't agree with you. I don't think Willow is in any way better than Buffy, especially not recently.

Well, Angel was part of the Scoobies until the end of season 3, but he left and he got his own series and his own gang. This same should happen with Willow.

That was the TV show, where we had actors and actresses that could bring new characters to life and give them personalities.

Of the new comic-only characters introduced so far since S8, only Satsu and maybe - at a push - Rowena and Leah have gone over well with the audience. Everyone else has been met with a wall of immense dislike.

And if Willow is given her own series and Aluwyn is one of the main characters, I DEFINITELY won't be reading it. I have never met a character I disliked more.

 

[Tofik vampie]

Hero must be the best!

Being the main character of a comic - or show - doesn't depend on how powerful or smart or clever said character is. It has to do with a characters actions and what they do with the power and smarts they do have. And right now, Buffy has done a lot more with the power that she does have than Willow has done with hers.

Not really, in story that is - at least partly - heroic fantasy, protagonist must be the best person in the group, if not there is no reason to follow this particular person. This is like reading story about Batman when secondary character like Robin is much better than Batman in every single way. Why Buffy should be the leader of Scoobies when Willow is both more powerful and smarter than her? Make no sense. That's why authors should keep Buffy and Willow separately. Also what make you think that Willow won't be proactive?

Buffy hasn't been the most powerful character since at LEAST season 5. And yet, she's still the main character.

And autors always found the way to down play Willow in order to make Buffy look good. Season 5 - Willow become more powerful only when she was bloodlusted after Glory attacked Tara and even then, she lost fight with Glory and Buffy had to save her. Season 6 - a lot of this season was about how bad and addictive magic is, and Willow was not using it much. And when she did, she was once again bloodlusted, she become main bad guy and - surprise, surprise! - she kicked Buffy's ass. Sorry, you can't have those two in one story, when you want Buffy to be a protagonist. Season 7 - Willow was afraid of using Magic because First could possess her. Season 8 - Buffy was leader of world wide Slayer organization and she gained Superman like powers, so this make her at least comparable with Willow in some aspects. No way it could happen again. Also I don't like over the top magic, and I like slightly insecure, shy and funny Willow much more that super-duper witchy Willow.

Angel wasn't the most powerful character in his show in S5 and he was still the main character.

But he saved the day in the end: he defeated Marcus Hamilton, after Marcus wiped the floor with Illyria. Only Angel could do that - drinking blood, remember? - and that's logical because Angel is/was a protagonist. Main hero must be the best, in one way or another. Also Illyria was quickly depowered - "Time bomb".

Power doesn't - and shouldn't - have anything to do with whether or not a character deserves to be the main character or now.

Yes, it have and yes it should :tongue3: Hero must be the best, he or she should be the only one who can save the day in the end, if he/she isn't the best why should I read about him/her, when there is someone far more competent? This make no sense!

Buffy has never, EVER been the smartest person in the show or the comics, so that theory doesn't hold water for me I'm afraid.

But she was the strongest and she was the best fighter. But we know that's not truth anymore.

In your opinion, but I'm afraid I don't agree with you. I don't think Willow is in any way better than Buffy, especially not recently.

In what way Willow is worse than Buffy 😕 Do you know what happen so far in season 9? Buffy got her ass kicked more times than I can count and she constantly need rescue. What make her better than Willow?

And if Willow is given her own series and Aluwyn is one of the main characters, I DEFINITELY won't be reading it. I have never met a character I disliked more.

You don't have. Willow already proven that she can sold books - her title outsold both "Angel&Faith" and "Spike" mini, and was only second to "Buffy".

 

[Lyri]

Not really, in story that is - at least partly - heroic fantasy, protagonist must be the best person in the group, if not there is no reason to follow this particular person. This is like reading story about Batman when secondary character like Robin is much better than Batman in every single way. Why Buffy should be the leader of Scoobies when Willow is both more powerful and smarter than her? Make no sense. That's why authors should keep Buffy and Willow separately. Also what make you think that Willow won't be proactive?

BEST, not the most powerful. And that has always been Buffy. She has always found a way to get done what needs to be done, and I might not like what's been happening recently, but I have faith that they'll be able to bring Buffy's heroism back before the end of the season.

The show/comic is called Buffy, the Vampire Slayer - she's the main character and I have nothing to show me that that should change.

And autors always found the way to down play Willow in order to make Buffy look good. Season 5 - Willow become more powerful only when she was bloodlusted after Glory attacked Tara and even then, she lost fight with Glory and Buffy had to save her. Season 6 - a lot of this season was about how bad and addictive magic is, and Willow was not using it much. And when she did, she was once again bloodlusted, she become main bad guy and - surprise, surprise! - she kicked Buffy's ass. Sorry, you can't have those two in one story, when you want Buffy to be a protagonist. Season 7 - Willow was afraid of using Magic because First could possess her. Season 8 - Buffy was leader of world wide Slayer organization and she gained Superman like powers, so this make her at least comparable with Willow in some aspects. No way it could happen again. Also I don't like over the top magic, and I like slightly insecure, shy and funny Willow much more that super-duper witchy Willow.

You've pretty much just proved my point for me, so thanks for that. Willow might be the most powerful, but there will always be something that proves to us that Buffy is the main character.

And for the record, I don't like Super!Willow - in fact, I hate her. I was SO excited for this no magic arc and all it's done is bring back Willow's selfish desire for power. I'd rather have no Willow than a Willow hyped up on magic.

But he saved the day in the end: he defeated Marcus Hamilton, after Marcus wiped the floor with Illyria. Only Angel could do this - drinking blood, remember? - and that's logical because Angel is was a protagonist. Main hero must be the best, in one way or another. Also Illyria was quickly depowered - "Time bomb".

And because Angel had skills that Illyria had no access to - again, proving my point for me. And Illyria's powers might have been drastically cut, but she was by no means powerless - she still had access to more power than Angel ever did up until that point.

Yes, it have and yes it should :tongue3: Hero must be the best, he or she should be the only one who can save the day in the end, if he/she isn't why should I read about him/her, when there is someone far more competent? This make no sense!

I don't appreciate being mocked for stating my opinion, so please refrain from sticking your metaphorical tongue out at me just because you don't agree with what I've said. It's very disrespectful.

And no, power has nothing to do with being the main character. Take a look at Supernatural - the leads are two human men surrounded by mega powerful demons and angels and gods. Yet, they're still the main characters.

But she was the strongest and she was the best fighter. But we know that's not truth anymore.

How do we know she's not the strongest or best fighter anymore? She's a Slayer, by definition of the word, ALL Slayers have the same power she has, so by this thinking, Buffy hasn't been 'the strongest or the best fighter' since Kendra showed up in S2. Again, no one was demanding that the show be called 'Kendra, the Vampire Slayer' and telling Buffy to take a back seat.

I what why Willow is worse than Buffy 😕 Do you know what happen so far in season 9? Buffy got her ass kicked more times than I can count and she constantly need rescue. What make her better than Willow?

Yes, I do know what's happened so far in S9 - I wouldn't have made this thread if I didn't.

I don't care that Buffy is 'getting her ass kicked' and I know you don't like Buffy because of this. But she's still fighting and doing the best with what she has.

What has Willow done? Whined and complained and yelled at Buffy for breaking the Seed - which Buffy should hold NO blame for - and run off to get her powers back because she can't stand to be powerless.

In my opinion, Willow has been nothing but selfish, worrying about her own problems and her own desperate need for power instead of focusing on the bigger picture.

She needs her powers more than she needs her friends - hence my creating this thread.

You don't have. Willow already proven that she can sold books - her title outsold both "Angel&Faith" and "Spike" mini, and was only second to "Buffy".

Her title sold because her story linked to the main book. If Willow gets her own series, it will be it's own story, like A&F - and A&F's sales fall FAR below the sales for S9.