Dollhouse Re-watch (2): "Getting Closer" & "The Hollow Men"

[Taake]

rewatch discussion
episode 11 & 12
​

Shit is getting real and fast! Anyone who hesitated about this show gets paid off well in these last three episodes.

Getting Closer:

"Worse... an idealist"​

This particular one I really like the flashbacks that show us a) How Caroline discovers the Dollhouse and b) her relationship with Bennett, which is frankly the only time I have cared for Caroline. I think it's easy to see why Bennett would have liked her.
What it made wonder about though is Caroline's timeline. Where is this in relation to the events with Leo? After I suppose but I thought that when she and Leo broke into that lab that it was after Caroline had left college. And here she is enrolling again... how much money does she have?

"You let them roam, like chickens. We keep ours more like veal." ​

On the topic of Benett I'll say what I said before - Topher and Bennett forever... awkward joy for all to go around 😀 And still on the topic of Bennett - oh the pain and shock of her death. Seriously. This time I sat on nails and waited for it to happen but the first time I was just floored by it. It's just... well Joss clearly learned something from the way he offed Tara.

It's a brilliant Boyd/Rossum reveal at the end... though it mostly makes me wonder - was this always the plan? Or was it a rushed decision? Because watching season 1 I feel like it being Boyd doesn't track for me, even though they make an excellent attempt to make it work. I'm just not convinced this was always the plan.

Fun trivia: I'm pretty sure the Active Bennett is working on in her house is Mike Massa, stunt coordinator of Angel, and the last doll to be imprinted with his own personality in the Dollhouse is Eliza Dushku's then beau Rick Fox.

The Hollow Men:
or the "Thoughtpocalypse" if you will 😉​

love the title, this episode though... so much heartbreak.
It's a great opening and a good explanation of Caroline's background which makes a lot of sense now.

"Chose me for what?" ​

Mostly my heartbreaks for Topher in this episode. He trusts Boyd so implicitly that it just... aw, it just crushes me and breaks my heart a little extra because it's Boyd. Because I've loved and trusted him too.

Second heartbreak is Mellie shooting herself. That scene never fails to tear me up even if it's not my favorite characters. There's just something about the look on Paul's face that's so...

"Go ahead and shoot. I'm sure I'll be more talkative with my brains splattered all over Topher." ​

I love battle ready Adelle. I always love Adelle but this is just gravy.

"I love you guys" has by the way never sounded so creepy. Psycho Boyd... haha, love the "except Paul" thing though. I'm sure that was a little dig at the fans.

Boyd scrubbed at the end is perfection but... also really sad. That trusting smile when Echo tells him what to do... I don't know if it's cause it's Boyd or if it's because the suggestability of anyone in that childlike doll-state but that really gets to me.

My favorite part about this episode is that all their work and they did in fact not save the world. I don't know why I love that so much, I just do... it seems real I guess.

So... hit me with your thoughts 😀

 

[thetopher]

Getting Closer:

Wow, this is a great episode. Seemlessly weaving together past and present, and add to that the return of Bennett, Dr. Sauders, Mellie and (briefly) Dominic this all feels really satisfying.

- Yeah, still don't like Caroline after this episode. I think she comes across as really personable/charismatic and draws people to her as a result, but in reality that is all just surface.
She's pretty much a 'for the greater good and to hell with the consequences' kind of person. All that matters is taking down Rossum. And for me that's on the empty side of things.

- Bennett/Topher is still the cutest thing ever. Especially conflicted Topher both trying to be 'cool' and unaffected but also failing miserably in the attempt. He's so funny to watch.

- Echo's worry about Caroline is really heartfelt and Boyd's (I believe genuine) speech to her about how strong Echo is is incredibly touching.

I read a fascinating article online that parraleled the Boyd/Echo relationship with the Faith/Mayor one- in the sense that they're both father/daughter relationships. The difference is we get to see the Echo/Boyd one sour in her eyes, and she gets to see clearly who and what he is, therefore severing that connection.
(Faith never got the chance to see that with The Mayor, she was in a coma. I still think she has huge, conflicted feelings about him, but that's OT)

-I do love Echo promising to 'hold' Caroline down so Bennett can get whatever payback she wants. Yay!- bonding through mutual dislike! 🙂

- I love that Adelle, even when she's on the side of good, can still be so cold-hearted in her decisions when she needs to be.

- Oh, how I missed Mellie, she's so sweet. 🙂

And the shock ending! I think in hindsight this doesn't make sense in S1 but it does a lot more in S2 (especially if you factor in the twisted reasoning given in the next ep) I think if the show had been allowed to develop for longer this still would've been the twist at the end, but it would've been more believable/less jarring.


The Hollow Men:
(I too prefer 'thoughtpocalypse' 🙂)

The episode moves pretty fast overall and has tons of great scenes. I'm glad it's not the actual end though and that they didn't save the world- it would've seemed too easy.
I also would've been happy with a season or two set during those 'ten years'. 🙁

So, who killed all those Rossum storm-trooper guys? Was it Boyd?

Enver as Topher! I forgot this happened! And, if its possible, he's better than he was before. I keep on waiting for the actual Topher to pop up from behind him, he's that good.

- Mellie is apparently so nice that she doesn't even mind being a doll.
Plus, I think I like Ballard/Mellie more than Ballard/Echo, it feels more...genuine and warm to me. I mean Ballard/Echo is hot and all, but they never really fully clicked for me.

- Ah, so Boyd dosed Echo. I forgot about that- its pretty smart. And then he plays all of them by getting them to walk into Rossum HQ so Topher can complete their evil scheme for them. That's ballsey.

- Adelle's right. Boyd is spectacularly insane, and creepy. Dollhouse is not like Buffy at all- the term 'family' in this context just makes my skin crawl. 🙁
- Although I'm with Boyd on not really liking Paul. I try to but...meh, he's crowded out by every other character twice over.

- Love Topher as he's both sad about causing the apocalyse, but also that little pitying aside to Adelle 'you handed over a piece of paper' kind of cracked me up. He's still Mr. superior genius guy, deep down.

- Amy Acker is really brilliant as a baddie, and she seems to be having plenty of fun. Plus- catfight! 😀 Watching Echo beat the tar out of her was fun.

- Mellie shooting herself gets me every time. It's so incredibly sad. Save her wedge! We can get her back...🙁

- Boyd is a doll. 🙁 And then Echo giving him that grenade and just walking away...such a sad scene.

- Eliza running away from a spectacular explosion is a pretty good way to end out an episode. any episode really.

- 10 years later. They spoke too soon...

 

[Blaze]

I think a lot of my comments are very similar to both of you.

Getting Closer

This episode answered tons of questions. In that sense, it’s a great set up for the finale, because we got the details out of the way. Now brace yourself this is going to be a Caroline rent.

Caroline is an asshole. Less Caroline please. Also, Bennett is so dam cute in the flashbacks, and I feel bad for her. I’d become a psychopath too if my best friend did this to me.

Adelle: “Worst, an idealist” is so perfect. This sums up everything wrong with Caroline. Caroline is honestly just a stupid ****. Showing up and trying to blow a building, ya great idea. Honestly have no sympathy for her, she’s responsible for the death of people. Rossum might be evil, but you’re not much better Caroline.

Topher: “Is she still cute?” “You know I always had a crush on you, even when you were a dude” Lol I ship it. That scene where Topher is trying to kiss her, pure comedic gold. I really like Bennett, wish she would have had a bigger role in the series.

I like Paul much better without his Echo connection, thank you Topher.

Oh shit, how did Mr. Dominic make it out?

So glad Dr. Saunders is back. But so sad at the same knowing the events that will take place.

So I might have screamed really hard when Dr. Saunders shot Bennett in the face. I woke up my roommate, and I looked like an idiot. I didn't remember the scene whatsoever, and it blew my mind (pun intended).

And oh man, I remembered that Boyd was involved with Rossum, I did not remember how it played out. Let me pick up my jaw from the floor.

Now I just hope that next episode solved all the loose ends. Because even re-watching this now, I couldn’t really pick up on clues that Boyd was the head of Rossum. And I was actually looking this time around, so there should have been something.

The Hollow Men

Koodos to Harry Lennix, he does creepy really really well. Boyd being the bad guy still doesn’t make much sense if we look at the entirety of the seasons.

Fun little interview I found with Harry Lennix

I feel like Boyd turning out to be the bad guy kind of came out of nowhere.

I agree. It did come out of nowhere. But I think if you look at what the premise of Dollhouse is, then what you understand is, those are [personality] implants. So Boyd may have really been great for a long time, and then he got implanted. I mean, who knows? I think the Boyd that people love, who was protecting Echo, himself got swept up in the Dollhouse.

So you don't think that was his original personality?

No.

You think that was a personality that was put into him.

I think so. Otherwise, that makes Boyd the smartest, most deceptive character in the Dollhouse lore. But I think that Boyd was legitimate, and then they got him. They body-snatched him.

So when did you find out that was going to happen to your character?

As soon as we found out that the show wasn't going to be picked up [for a third season]. Joss came up to me and told me that that's where he was going with the thinking of it. And I was fascinated with it. I was looking forward to it. It's always fun to play a sort of deliciously evil type of person. That's assuming — at least, I hope I was deliciously evil.

You were entertainingly evil. So you didn't know months in advance, or anything?

No, I found out the last month or so that we were filming.

Souce: http://io9.com/harry-lennix-has-a-theory-about-what-happened-to-boyd-o-888091376

Sounds like it’s something they came up with last minute.

Amy Acker as Clyde was weird, because this wasn’t Clyde at all, guess they really did make some “improvements” over the years. But that suit though, dammmm.

Koodos to Enver as always. I really like how it’s so clear when he is Anthony compared to other personalities. Maybe he should have been cast as Echo lol.

Ouf, when Boyd asks Topher to fix the tech. That is just cruel to the viewers, my anxiety just shot up through the roof.

Finally though, I feel like Paul is part of the gang. Finally he seems to have a place, and I like this Paul, a lot. And he’s kind of hilarious, and really sweet when he’s with Mellie. Speaking of Mellie I also like her come back. But seriously, Adelle and Topher didn’t think to remove the trigger?

Paul “What did I miss”, what great delivery! I love Paul’s constant state of not knowing what they hell is up lol.

Interesting how they did the 10 years later bit, since we already know that it’s coming. Guess they just wanted to re-enforce that they didn’t change the future.

Argh, I’m really mad that we didn’t get a 3rd season, I really wanted to see the lead up to the apocalypse. But overall this was a strong finale. Kind of the happy finale. But it was still a bit underwhelming because it didn't seem to tie up all the loose ends as well as I wanted it, looking forward to Epitaph 2.

On a side note, I think I’m going crazy. I could have sworn that I remembered a scene where Boyd and Adelle face off in a hallway and Boyd tries to kill Adelle. Where the hell did that come from brain?

 

[Taake]

Oh yes, also wondered if Boyd killed all of those guys cause that feels unlikely.
Fair point about him getting swept up with the Dollhouse but I still dont feel convinced about it.

Yes, right, Amy as Clyde was weird especially when we're seen other iterations of him who are bumbling and shy. Amy's Clyde was the opposite of that.

 

[Blaze]

Oh yes, also wondered if Boyd killed all of those guys cause that feels unlikely.
Fair point about him getting swept up with the Dollhouse but I still dont feel convinced about it.

Yes, right, Amy as Clyde was weird especially when we're seen other iterations of him who are bumbling and shy. Amy's Clyde was the opposite of that.

Yes exactly, I'm not convinced by him either. Especially that we're suppose to assume that Boyd is the guy that betrayed Clyde and put him in the attic. It also doesn't make sense with the idea of Boyd choosing Adele, Topher and them to be his "family" because he likes them. What about Clyde. You're trying to tell me that he betrayed his college best friend whom he had known for most likely years, and yet he wanted to creepily keep the group because he liked them. If I described that Boyd to someone, the person would say that it makes no sense and that Boyd would have to be crazy. But problem is, Boyd was never crazy until the finale. Boyd was shown to be this sweet guy who cares for others, and over the course of 2 seasons, he couldn't have faked every single one of his interactions. Some of it had to have been genuine. You can fake the facade you put on to trick people, but his personality, that was still true.

Honestly, Boyd as the head of Rossum was a brilliant twist, and it could have been truly great, but they didn't have enough time to flesh it out. We would have needed a whole season to show his motive. Build a plausible story, show his side of the story. Make us care for him as a bad guy, and then blow him up. The impact would have been so much greather. This show definitely suffers from getting cancelled. And they did good with what they had, but things could have been better with more time.

 

[Taake]

Completely agree with you Blaze, every single word of your post.

I think it's nice that they wrapped things up, not all early cancelled shows get a chance to do that, but it is frustrating because you feel like there is so much more to the story that could have been explored and that would have made the end product even better.

 

[Blaze]

Agreed, overall we can't really complain, for what it is it was well wrapped up. There's a few plot holes, but not as many as a show like that usually has by the end of things. Joss was brilliant creating the Epitaph episodes, it really ensured that we would have a proper enough conclusion no matter when the show was going to be cancelled. Looking back now, Epitaph 1 is perhaps my favorite season finale of any show. And even then, The Hollow Men was a great conclusion. Eliza might not have been the strongest actress, but this cast as a whole was really, really strong. I think that's part of why I think this show is so great.

 

[Taake]

Agreed, overall we can't really complain, for what it is it was well wrapped up. There's a few plot holes, but not as many as a show like that usually has by the end of things. Joss was brilliant creating the Epitaph episodes, it really ensured that we would have a proper enough conclusion no matter when the show was going to be cancelled. Looking back now, Epitaph 1 is perhaps my favorite season finale of any show. And even then, The Hollow Men was a great conclusion. Eliza might not have been the strongest actress, but this cast as a whole was really, really strong. I think that's part of why I think this show is so great.

I agree.
I also thought it was nice to read, in some interview - sorry can't remember which, recently that Eliza said that she was proud of the story they told. And I agree, they should be proud... but I'm still pissed we didn't get a season 3. 🙂

 

[Blaze]

The reason I'm most ticked off that this show was cancelled is that Dollhouse is one of the better Sci-fi show out there and contrary to a lot of show that go beyond their prime, Dollhouse was just getting to the best part. Rarely do I think that a show gets better as the seasons go on. But if s2 is any indication, s3 might have still been even better.

I think Dollhouse just had so many factors playing against it, it got unlucky and everything just lined up for a cancellation. If the show would have been on a different network, if Joss would have been given freedom to write what he wanted from the get go, and if the show wasn't put on the Friday night death spot, I am positive that we would have seen a third season.

 

[Taake]

It did have a lot of factors playing against it... which is really sad because I do think that they had something as original as an original reality-anchored story. I mean this is science that is not that far fetched really.

But... in a few years we'll see some kind of reiteration of it, cast into popularity cause it'll be 'trending' then, and then we can say - hey, look at this show, it was awesome and here first. Don't miss it and maybe it'll get the recognition it deserves. 🙂

 

[Blaze]

It did have a lot of factors playing against it... which is really sad because I do think that they had something as original as an original reality-anchored story. I mean this is science that is not that far fetched really.

But... in a few years we'll see some kind of reiteration of it, cast into popularity cause it'll be 'trending' then, and then we can say - hey, look at this show, it was awesome and here first. Don't miss it and maybe it'll get the recognition it deserves. 🙂

I agree, I think if anything Dollhouse was very avant-garde. I know that the show isn't very old, but I could see it being a show that was before its time, and that would or could have perhaps done better in the future.

It actually reminds me a lot of Orphan Black, both in quality and themes. Both shows are very different and very similar in certain aspects at the same time. Orphan Black is suffering from a similar fate as Dollhouse rating wise, but it's on a cable network and it's a Canadian show (aka, cheaper to produce).

It just hurts my brain a little bit when a Joss Whedon show gets cancelled after 2 seasons and we get about 10 seasons of Jersey Shore.

 

[sk]

Getting Closer

A good episode. Pretty much all episodes with flashbacks that tells the backstory has been interesting and great.
The idea of the Dollhouse, how it come to be and all that is good stuff.

Nice nod to Firefly too. When Caroline sees Bennett's file she says:
- Off the chart smart, bet you could kill me with your brain. 🙂

I'm not convinced about the Boyd twists either. Like most it seems.
Not sure why, but it feel contrived somehow.
Let's make a major twist, that will fun, kind of thing instead of something that's really thought through and planned.

I've no idea if it was like that or not. But that's how it feels anyway.

Dr. Saunders killing Bennet was much bigger shock. That was no expected. lol

Loved Adele's little backing up thing when she (a bit late) realised that Dr. Saunders was back.
That's another one of those small funny things that I think makes Dollhouse a bit better than average.

The Hollow Men

Ah, more Enver as Topher. Always good. 🙂
I like the opening. Boyd almost make sense here and for a moment the the whole Boyd twists feels pretty good.

Not a fan of his creepy craziness later on though. You are my family speak and all that it just doesn't feel right to me.
The change doesn't work imho. But perhaps it is as Topher said, "That dude can act". lol

Overall it's a bit too much cheesy moments for me.
Mellie fighting her imprint and shoots herself is one, the slo-mo running with explosion in the background is another. I'm not a big fan.

Paul's “What did I miss?" was good though.

I might think this episode has some weak points but I still think it's a decent episode.

Also love that they actually didn't save the world. Always fun when the heroes doesn't succeed for a change. 🙂

/SK

 

[Taake]

Ah, more Enver as Topher. Always good. 🙂

, the slo-mo running with explosion in the background is another. I'm not a big fan.

Paul's “What did I miss?" was good though.

/SK

Yes, love that they managed to squeeze that in once more. Enver is so good at it 🙂

No I'm not a fan of Echo running out with the blast coming behind her either.... also because then she's just out and there's like no smoke or nothing come out of the entrance so it seems really weird that she would have made it so far without even a scorch mark or anything on her clothes. I don't know how high up in the building they were obviously but chances are pretty high. I always feel like she should tell Boyd to count to thirty or something after she has left before he pulls the plug out. Would have made more sense if she was going to survive the explosion.

Haha yes, his face is golden there 😀

 

[Fuffy Baith]

Getting Closer
I really like the opening scene with Caroline seducing that guy then turning on him. Very Faith like, which Eliza does so well.
LOL. Omg, those girls talking at the table at the university before Bennett comes up, totally gave me flashbacks to the MTV show 'Laguna Beach' or 'The Hills'. That was hilarious. Poor poor Bennett.
Caroline telling Bennett there are a lot of things she'd like to be. Well I guess she got her wish in Echo.
Topher is so cute fumbling over his words talking to Bennett and being awkward. Also "if anyone asks don't say I got beat up by a one armed girl." lol
What I would give to have Eliza wash my hair. lol. How old is Caroline supposed to be, and who the hell was she texting. And why isn't Bennett more upset? I do like that Caroline admits she was using Bennett at least she's honest. It sounded like Caroline was sincere when she said she was Bennetts friend but then she gets Bennett injured and leaves her there. But in all fairness she was trying to protect her.

Nice flashback with Adele and Mr. Dominic. What the? How did he escape the attic? Did he try and do what Echo did flatlining?
Amy Acker is just great in all her scenes and so creepy with Bennett.

Omg, I will never forgive Joss for killing Bennett! that scene still makes my eyes water. Partly because we get the scene with Topher kissing Bennett then coming in right when she gets shot. So heartbreaking, this is even worse than Fred dying.
So Adele knew that Caroline met with the head of Rossum? Why didn't she mentioned this before?
Poor poor Topher trying to bring Bennett back. Although I'm sure the DC Dollhouse has her brain mapped out. Though this not the same as dead Paul. I love Topher telling Ivy to leave and her saying she really does want to help but he doesn't want her to end up like him. So sad.

I remember I was completely shocked the first time I saw the reveal. Cause Boyd says he never met Caroline. Obviously he was lying.

The Hollow Men
So something in Caroline's blood told Boyd that she was special? I'm pretty sure blood and spinal fluid are completely different right? Is this why he went to the LA Dollhouse, to gain access to Echo's spinal fluid and have it analyzed? Must be otherwise how does he know the key is in her spinal fluid? So why does he take them to Tucson? To get Topher to solve the problem and get Echo's spinal fluid. I guess he had to change and rush his plans since they were not going to give up without a fight.

Well it's nice Tony and Priya decided to come back. I like him telling her the chair can help, it reminds me of Zone in Epitaph 1 when he refuses to use the chair too.
Enver as Topher again, is amazing. Only Topher would be concerned about Ivy stealing his turkey jerky. lol. I like that Priya made the choice to enhance Tony, I think that's what he would have done anyways. He sees the advantages of the tech whereas she just thinks it's all bad.

Amy is so great! But was Dr. Saunders programmed to go to Tucson to see Clyde?

Yay were back to Paul and Mellie. I like his realization now that he's a doll it doesn't matter. Mellie shooting herself is so sad. Poor poor Paul. I just think he and Mellie have better chemistry than him and Echo. And I don't think it's the actors fault, it's the writing.

So I get they need Echos spinal fluid because she's the only one that can block imprints. But why do they want to block imprints if they plan on imprinting people. Is it just to protect the rich people in control from getting imprinting.

 

[Blaze]

So something in Caroline's blood told Boyd that she was special? I'm pretty sure blood and spinal fluid are completely different right? Is this why he went to the LA Dollhouse, to gain access to Echo's spinal fluid and have it analyzed? Must be otherwise how does he know the key is in her spinal fluid? So why does he take them to Tucson? To get Topher to solve the problem and get Echo's spinal fluid. I guess he had to change and rush his plans since they were not going to give up without a fight.

I might be wrong on this, but Boyd seemed to have Caroline's medical record from when she checked for compatibility to give bone marrow to someone with leukemia. So he would have the results for her spinal fluid on hand already. As to what exactly made her so special, I have no idea.

So I get they need Echos spinal fluid because she's the only one that can block imprints. But why do they want to block imprints if they plan on imprinting people. Is it just to protect the rich people in control from getting imprinting.

That's also what I assumed. That it was to conserve the mind's of people working for Rossum, including Boyd's chosen few like Adelle and Topher.

Spoiler for Epitaph 2:

Spoiler

What's curious is that we see they don't use to antitode in the next episode, at least Harding doesn't. They just transfer themselves into dolls, which makes more sense because it gives them a sort of immortality. Only Adelle, Topher, Prya and the rest of the crew probably used the vaccine

 

[Fuffy Baith]

What it made wonder about though is Caroline's timeline. Where is this in relation to the events with Leo? After I suppose but I thought that when she and Leo broke into that lab that it was after Caroline had left college. And here she is enrolling again... how much money does she have?

"Go ahead and shoot. I'm sure I'll be more talkative with my brains splattered all over Topher."
​

Yea I was wondering what the timeline was too. How old is she? How much time has pasted since the incident with Leo? And that's a good question on how she got into that school. I would have assumed she was posing as a student and just showing up on campus, but then she's clearly sharing a room with Bennett. So how much time had past from when she first meets Bennett to becoming her dorm mate. Cause I don't think you can switch roommates in the middle of a semester. And what does she do with the rest of her time if it's not devoted to bringing down Rossum. Again the practical questions. lol
And the look on Topher's face when Adele says that, you know he's thinking about Bennett and wishing no more people get shot in front of him. poor guy. 🙁​

I like Paul much better without his Echo connection, thank you Topher.

So I might have screamed really hard when Dr. Saunders shot Bennett in the face. I woke up my roommate, and I looked like an idiot. I didn't remember the scene whatsoever, and it blew my mind (pun intended).

Yea I like Paul better without his connection with Echo too, but I do like Echo's reaction to it. I don't blame you for screaming. The first time I saw it I let out a little gasp in shock. It's just so tragic and out of nowhere and so sad. I'm going to cry again.

But seriously, Adelle and Topher didn’t think to remove the trigger?

Paul “What did I miss”, what great delivery! I love Paul’s constant state of not knowing what they hell is up lol.

Interesting how they did the 10 years later bit, since we already know that it’s coming. Guess they just wanted to re-enforce that they didn’t change the future.

On a side note, I think I’m going crazy. I could have sworn that I remembered a scene where Boyd and Adelle face off in a hallway and Boyd tries to kill Adelle. Where the hell did that come from brain?

Yea they should have removed the trigger. Great line from Paul, you're right it sums up his character of always not knowing fully what's going on. lol. Yea I don't know where you made up that scene. lol. I like that it doesn't change the future too. It makes sense that Rossum probably had several backups of Topher's plans lying around. Without Boyd it's all up to Clyde version 10. whatever body count he's at, now to pick up the pieces.[/QUOTE]