Dollhouse Re-watch: "Echoes" and "Needs"

[Taake]

Rewatch discussion;
episodes 7 & 8
"Echoes" (1) and "Needs" (2)​

Discussion 1: Man I love this episode! It is hilarious to see pretty much all of the characters compromised in some way. And yes, I love "high" Mr. Dominic. Lol, "it's so soft, like a kitty!"

It's also fantastic to get a Topher and Adelle high together moment. Couldn't have dreamed up anything as delicious as those scenes. Including unstable Mellie it becomes perfection.

Seriously love Topher by now. I love his rant about drugs and how it works differently in different people at the start of the show. Also love his answer to "Can you help?" - "Well I can't make it worse..." Lol.

It's nice and timely to get Caroline's background. I still don't like her but I feel for her with losing Leo, it's very touching.

Also love her saying 'no' to Boyd's offer of a treatment. I feel like Echo is steadily progressing towards becoming more and more self-aware. I remember early on when the show was new that there were some complaints about her progress being too slow but I really don't think it is.

Random: It's a bit sad the guy from the pilot keeps re-hiring Echo to perform what seems to be the same fantasy...

So here's a thought, I love the end, I love Adelle making her offer to yet another potential Doll... but what if someone says no? Like what if that guy just wouldn't go for the money and them caring for his mother. If he couldn't be swayed... (him or anyone else really) What if the Dollhouse made an offer to someone who just flatly refused... what would the Dollhouse do?
Would they kill the person? Would they wipe them against their will and just never return the body? Would they wipe the memories of the offer?
I'm just wondering because if someone flat out refused then it's not like they can let that person just leave and go their own merry way... I mean what if they talked?
What do you guys thing they do in such a situation?


Discussion 2: Haven't watched "Needs" yet, will be back when I have.

 

[Vigeous]

We're right on schedule with Dollhouse episodes. This is exactly where I'm at as well (though this is my first time through the series).

This wasn't my favourite episode, but I really liked seeing the bits of backstory from Echo before she was echo. It was also nice to see a little more of how/why she became a doll in the first place.
It's really cool to see her glitch and have certain memories triggered here and there. Although most of the dolls seem to have some sort of thing about them, Echo is definitely the most complicated in that sense.

So here's a thought, I love the end, I love Adelle making her offer to yet another potential Doll... but what if someone says no? Like what if that guy just wouldn't go for the money and them caring for his mother. If he couldn't be swayed... (him or anyone else really) What if the Dollhouse made an offer to someone who just flatly refused... what would the Dollhouse do?
Would they kill the person? Would they wipe them against their will and just never return the body? Would they wipe the memories of the offer?
I'm just wondering because if someone flat out refused then it's not like they can let that person just leave and go their own merry way... I mean what if they talked?
What do you guys thing they do in such a situation?

I thought about this too. I think that maybe they just don't release them until they get their yes. We know that Echo was there for a couple of days (I think they specifiy 2) before she signed on so maybe they keep them there as long as they need to.

 

[Blaze]

Discussion 1.

Another epic episode. The beginning of the series was a bit weak, but now it really picked up. I don't have much bad to say here. The episode was hilarious but also had a good story behind it. Maybe I liked it so much because I'm a scientist. Not that we were painted in the brightest light here, but I do struggle with the idea of doing good on a daily basis and doing something for the greater good. It's all about ethics but it's really interesting. Not only that, but scientist really do have powers this great in real life, something like this might not be possible today but it isn't unrealistic really. Anyhow, episodes like these are fun to think about science and where it's going and what's possible, which again, strangely isn't that far from reality even if this is a science fiction show.

Adele and Topher, priceless, those two have serious chemistry. I don't really know why I like Adele so much, she's a morally ambiguous character at best, at worst she's plainly morally bad, but I love her role more and more. Again, probably just because I'm into sciency stuff.

Caroline's backstory isn't too bad, I like it, but I'm not sure I really like Caroline all that much. She kinda sounds like one of those noisy people that don't know the second thing about science but thinks that everything done by companies is evil. Now she was right in this situation and the experimentation were illegal and highly unethical, but I just get the vibe that she'd want to bring down any science company because she thinks all of them abuse animals. Just sounds like she went on a limb to take down a huge corporation but it could have turned out that the company was actually doing good and being ethical. She just lucked out that she was right. Sorry for the science rant.

Discussion 2.

Interesting episode. I don't really get how they would take such a risk with letting the active loose though. Isn't it easier to send them to the attic and forget about it. Just feels like the risk reward here wasn't very balanced. They got lucky that everything went according to plan, but what if Echo would have shot Adele, or Paul would have seen November on the street, what would they have done then. And now Caroline was able to contact Paul, isn't that something they should have been worried about. This whole thing felt a little silly, although it was pretty brilliant at the same time. Also, why have Mike there in the first place. I'm guessing it was so that they had the full room of active waking up at the same time and also to scare them by capturing him later on. But he was pretty dispensable really.

The opening was a bit creepy though, last thing I want to think about is Paul having a weird fetish thing for Caroline. It's creepy. And I hate this whole big man gotta save the princess attitude.

November's story was really sad. I like how they're exploring the reasons for people being in the Dollhouse. They're doing a good job at making the organisation not seem completely evil. And I feel bad for Sierra, the poor girl really can't catch a break. Victor was sweet as always, interesting how he didn't need closure from the past.

 

[Taake]

I thought about this too. I think that maybe they just don't release them until they get their yes. We know that Echo was there for a couple of days (I think they specifiy 2) before she signed on so maybe they keep them there as long as they need to.

True... I suppose most people would just wear down in the end and agree... And we enter another gray area of the Dollhouse! Cause even though that's technically consent, it's consent under coercion.

 

[Taake]

Discussion 1.


Caroline's backstory isn't too bad, I like it, but I'm not sure I really like Caroline all that much. She kinda sounds like one of those noisy people that don't know the second thing about science but thinks that everything done by companies is evil. Now she was right in this situation and the experimentation were illegal and highly unethical, but I just get the vibe that she'd want to bring down any science company because she thinks all of them abuse animals. Just sounds like she went on a limb to take down a huge corporation but it could have turned out that the company was actually doing good and being ethical. She just lucked out that she was right. Sorry for the science rant.

.

Agree about Caroline! It's like I feel like they want you to feel for her because she has a cause that she believes in and fights for, but ultimately, like you said, I just feel like she's one of those noisy people who just wants to be right at all costs. The fact that she was about the Rossum corporation seems more like dumb luck than her actually being informed or a particularly good activist. Honestly I find her rather obnoxious.

 

[Fuffy Baith]

Echoes
I liked the opening scene with Adele. It makes me want to know what the connection between her and Caroline is.
I liked Tophers rant about drugs, and then switches to pointing out they do drug tests when Adele gives him this look. I thought that was funny. I really enjoying Adele and Topher's interactions. Also I like it when they mention other actives, helps make it feel bigger than just Echo, Sierra and Victor.
I really like Mellie's frustration at Paul's obsession over the doll house.
I love Topher and his juice box. lol. I love, love, LOVE Topher and Adele under the effects of the drug. Topher in his underwear was unexpected yet funny.
Mr. Dominic was also great. Apologizing and saying the gun is so heavy was funny.
Didn't really care for the Caroline back story. Extreme animal rights activist seems too cliche and boring. I guess now that her boyfriend is dead it gives her extra motive but I still don't care.
I think this was good episode for comedy but didn't really care too much about the whole Rossum Corporation is evil plot. I thought Eliza's acting was a bit off when she was with that client in the beginning but she did fine later on. I do wonder how that guy got out of the ropes. Maybe Boyd helped him. lol.

Random: It's a bit sad the guy from the pilot keeps re-hiring Echo to perform what seems to be the same fantasy...

Not surprising, we've heard about repeat clients before. Joel Minear played out the same fantasy every year. It does seem weird that he changes the girl but keeps the same fantasy. I guess he just has a thing for Echo. Gotta say that outfit was pretty cute.

So here's a thought, I love the end, I love Adelle making her offer to yet another potential Doll... but what if someone says no? Like what if that guy just wouldn't go for the money and them caring for his mother. If he couldn't be swayed... (him or anyone else really) What if the Dollhouse made an offer to someone who just flatly refused... what would the Dollhouse do?
Would they kill the person? Would they wipe them against their will and just never return the body? Would they wipe the memories of the offer?
I'm just wondering because if someone flat out refused then it's not like they can let that person just leave and go their own merry way... I mean what if they talked?
What do you guys thing they do in such a situation?

This episode makes me wonder about the application process they go through when hiring actives. With Caroline and this Sam guy, I guess if they were to say no, then they would go to jail before they committed a crime. I know how Sierra came to be a doll but this makes me wonder how they get or find the other dolls, like Victor and Mellie(do we know Mellie's code name is at this point?). I wonder how they came to the Dollhouse. It seems like some truly volunteer and other are coerced.

 

[Fuffy Baith]

'Needs'
The dream that Ballard has was creepy but it's about time he recognizes what the audiences sees. That he's obsessed about Caroline and is attracted to her and that's what drove away Mellie.
I really like that Dr. Saunders points out that she cares about what they're are doing to the actives to Topher. I liked when he said something really complicated and Adele was just like 'done. whatever that means.'
I love that Victor waits up for Sierra and that he can vaguely remember her when he 'wakes up'.
I like all the theories they have when they wake up from the pods.
I'm curious as to how many dolls they have. They're 26 words in the phonetic alphabet, which are the names assigned to the dolls, but it looks like there are more than 26 dolls. So what would the other dolls names be?
I like the shower scene. Mellie is just like whatever and Victor's trying to concentrate on anything but naked ladies.
This is a great episode to give us a little bit more back story on November and Sierra.
The twist ending with Dr.Saunders suggesting they all find closure was great.
So Caroline tipped off Paul Ballard, oh no here we go again with him. I really wish Paul was more interesting. Having Tahmoh shirtless can only do so much, at some point he needs to be more likable outside of him and Mellie.

 

[Vigeous]

Just watched Needs.

I really enjoyed watching some of the backstory from Victor, Sierra, and November. I also liked the reason behind allowing the dolls to be released.

True... I suppose most people would just wear down in the end and agree... And we enter another gray area of the Dollhouse! Cause even though that's technically consent, it's consent under coercion.

Watching this episode reinforced this idea in my mind. The Dollhouse selects poeple who they feel can't deal with the consequences of their actions in their current lives any longer. It's then just a matter of time for them to consent to becoming dolls. I think a lot of people would like to forget certain things from their lives. Admittedly the plot of the show takes this notion to an extreme, but I could see people with certain circumstances agreeing to becoming one of the dolls; it's an escape. Even if they can't wrap their minds around that idea at first, with enough prodding and convincing I don't doubt the Dollhouse acquires all of their actives with complete consent.

It's a very philosophical topic, I think. Really gets you thinking.

 

[sk]

Two really good episodes.

The show really improves when it is about the dolls and the dollhouse. The main arc is so more interesting than a random assignment episode.
It also seems to have become a bit funnier lately which I love.

Echoes
Some hilarious moments again here.
I'm guessing Olivia Williams had great fun doing some of those scenes. Doing stuff she probably very seldom gets do as an actress. 🙂

Topher keeps being the highlight. Having the best lines and just being funny in general.

Loved to finally get some backstory to Caroline.
Agree with Blaze though, she doesn't come off that good. Sure, the Rossum Corporation is a really bad place so she had a good reason in this case.
But the vibe I also got that having a cause to fight for, right or wrong, was the most important thing to her.

Random: It's a bit sad the guy from the pilot keeps re-hiring Echo to perform what seems to be the same fantasy...

True, but like Fuffy Baith said. It's not surprising.
Don't we all have good memories that we would love to be able to re-live?
Even though in reality they never gets as good as that special one time.

My guess is that it never really get as good as the first time for these clients either.
And it truly is sad that they feel the need to try again and again.

I'm just wondering because if someone flat out refused then it's not like they can let that person just leave and go their own merry way... I mean what if they talked?
What do you guys thing they do in such a situation?

My guess is that they would wipe the memory of the offer.
That they would make such agreement first or something.
Getting people to disappear seems to risky.

Needs

Yeah, Ballards dream in the beginning was disturbing. lol

The plan to let them live out their fantasies/needs seemed very risky.
Was it really no better way? Made a good and interesting episode though, so it's all good I guess.

Gotta love when they add an extra, random, person in the mix.
You just know that he will soon be dead, or at least as in this case, get caught. lol

Thought they did a really good job revealing Mellie's reason to join the dollhouse.
Nice cutting there between Adelle's explanation and Mielle entering the cemetery and you started to understand. Sad but good moment.

/SK

 

[thetopher]

Ep 7: Echoes:

I like this one a lot, we get a few more hints about Caroline and her backstory with Rossum (how she became obsessed with taking them down). She's kind of annoying as hell, one of those self-righteous people you occasionally cross paths with, but I did feel bad for her when Leo died. Plus her sense of hopelessness at the start of the ep when she's talking to DeWitt. 🙁

Random thoughts:
- 'I might throw up. That's a compliment.' 🙂 Topher continues to be my favourite character at the moment.
- This is sealed with Topher's great funny drug ramble. I love it.
- The guy from the pilot is hiring out Echo again, but instead of 'wild girl' he gets 'good girl'? Would that be accurate? Anyway I do really like her outfit, the whole frilly skirt/stockings thing is cute. 🙂
- I do like Topher and DeWitt's interactions when they're out of it. I'll bet Olivia had a blast doing some of the oddball dialogue- being less stiff, sarcastic and well, British.
- Domonic apologising to Echo for trying to kill her was actually quite nice, and funny. Apparently he has a conscience!
- Alice riding the bike. 😀
When that lady says to Boyd 'There are mansions in your eyes. You can see the doors.' and then his cool reaction to it, was that a hint about Boyd's true nature?
- The thing about Caroline and people like her, generally speaking if you value animals more than people (and if you oppose any kind of 'evil' scientific research that's exactly what you're doing) you suck as a person. 😡
-And are also a massive hypocrite if you take any medication or drugs of any kind, since they wouldn't have even been possible without 'evil' animal testing. *rant over*

That's about it really. I tend to be wary of 'everybody goes all wacky for a while' episodes, but the combination of strong (and funny) performances plus the first interesting hints about the Caroline/Rossum backstory really carry this episode along. 🙂
Really very strong.


Ep. 8: Needs


And another great, and also very clever episode. Smartly scripted and gives us more info about a couple of the key characters. November and Sierra specifically.
- Ballard's dream about Caroline starts off as kind of sexy but then turns creepy real fast. It does reveal his obsession in pretty start colours.
- The whole rational from a psychological standpoint is fascinating- 'closing the loop' and allowing closure, even for subconscious needs makes total sense.
- The waking up scene is really great comedy- I actually quite like Mike here, and Sierra's comment about a 'deranged millionaire serial killer' made me laugh out loud. 🙂

And weirdly, I love Carline this episode, her self-righteousness works for her character here, especially in her conversations with Topher and DeWitt (they're the best scenes in my opinion)- she points out, starkly, the evils of the Dollhouse perfectly. When Topher babbles on about just being 'the science guy' we get how weak his self-justifications actually are.
Anyway the dialogue crackles, Eliza's performance is great and Olivia Williams is really good too. Red hot anger vs. cool, reasoned detachment- love it! 🙂

So sad about November. 🙁

It's really sweet that Victor remembers Sierra, no matter what- this is the first ep where their romance starts to blossom. Aww. 🙂
I. Really. Hate. Nolan.

Caroline leading all the dolls out was actually a really powerful image (as was the idea of her 'closure' being saving everybody, not just herself.) and then the twist happens.
The imagery here, plus the closing conversation between Boyd and Saunders, the revelation of the twist ending all of it tied in with the music, was very moving- all in all quite sad.

A really great episode, it shows how Dollhouse's strength lies in the interplay between the great characters that have been established. 🙂

 

[Taake]

Discussion 2: Needs

Wow I had forgotten how good this episode is!

Agree with you @thetopher: that they show very nicely how weak Topher's self-justification is once he is confronted by Echo. Great scenes between the two of them!

I still don't like Caroline, though I like her wishfullfilment of wanting to save not just herself but everybody however it does make me feel like the Dollhouse made a huge mistake having ever selected her for being a Doll. I mean it's pretty clear that she's a crazy no-regards for her own saftey or consequences kind of an activist... what on earth would make them think that a contract and money for life would make her any less driven to take down the Dollhouse once her contract was up...? Unless the plan was to never let her contract run out I suppose.

How long has she been there by the way? Theories? I would guess 2-3 years, do we ever find out? Can't remember if we do.

Nolan. Oh. dear. Lord. how I hate him... but I give credit to the actor here. He's just so good at being creepy and believably creepy. Nolan really makes me shiver in horror.

I hate how they dress Mellie/November when she's 'herself'. It feels like these weird old-timey kind of housewife dresses that no one her age would wear. What's wrong with jeans? Her story and the reveal of her background is so very sad and gripping though. I can really understand her choice to become a Doll because that pain must be unbareable.

At the end... again we have Boyd as the voice of reason.

I'm both attracted and appalled by the pods. They look cozy and claustrophobic as heck at the same time 😉

I think it would have been nice though if the plot would have allowed for one of the four Dolls to get away and somehow hook up with Paul's hunt against the Dollhouse. It would make his obsession a little less creepy, a little more valid, and it wouldn't just be him running around like some lone ranger creating his own rules all the time.


Also, one of my favorite moment in the whole show is the;
"We're having banana pancakes"
and Viktor's "We're all gonna die." 😀 😀

 

[Fuffy Baith]

I hate how they dress Mellie/November when she's 'herself'. It feels like these weird old-timey kind of housewife dresses that no one her age would wear. What's wrong with jeans?

I'm both attracted and appalled by the pods. They look cozy and claustrophobic as heck at the same time 😉

I was thinking the exact same things. The other dolls dressed in street clothes and she chose this awkward dress. I think it had something to do with her being a mother and mourning her daughter.

The pods look totally comfy but I would freak the second the glass shuts.

 

[MarlieTheSlayer]

I love everything about Echoes except the Caroline scenes. I REALLY don't like her and I think her backstory is so freaking boring.
One of my biggest disappointments of the series.

Adele and Topher were flawless. A lot of whedon fans claim Dollhouse doesn't have any humor. Have they even seen this episode? Comedy gold 😀

 

[Taake]

I wonder if they planned for Caroline to be so... unpopular shall we say? I mean, obviously we need to root for her a little but not too much because we're supposed to root for Echo, but I can't help but feel like they failed with Caroline and ended up making her genuinely unlikeable rather than just a bit annoying.

 

[Fuffy Baith]

Adele and Topher were flawless. A lot of whedon fans claim Dollhouse doesn't have any humor. Have they even seen this episode? Comedy gold 😀

Love, love, love Adele and Topher, not in just this episode but they were hilarious!

I wonder if they planned for Caroline to be so... unpopular shall we say? I mean, obviously we need to root for her a little but not too much because we're supposed to root for Echo, but I can't help but feel like they failed with Caroline and ended up making her genuinely unlikeable rather than just a bit annoying.

That's a good question. Cause were suppose to root for Echo but I don't think we were suppose to be against Caroline. Were at least suppose to agree with her cause, but there's something about the way they present it just doesn't work and a part of that is because we don't like Caroline.