Dollhouse Re-watch: "Ghost" and "The Target"

[Taake]

Rewatch discussion;
episode 1 & 2
"Ghost" (1) and "The Target" (2)​

Discussion 1:
Okay, the pilot is just a stinker in my opinion. It's a bad pilot. It's choppy and strange and just overall not well executed. My main grievance is that it makes no sense to have a "doll" negotiator... he could have just hired an actual expert on the "black market" since he seems well connected. Also, if Mr Crestejo is already a client why (if not for exposition) does Adelle have to explain them to him?

The worst part that I felt alienates me as a viewer is how confusing they are about the imprints. They're amalgams of real people? Where did they get these scans? Did peopl volunteer them? How does Topher create cohesive personalities from bits and bobs of real folk? And because the Dolls are amalgams of real people it feels as if their skill sets should be limited (not a feeling one gets later)

To pile onto this is Echo's imprint remembering her abuser and freaking out. That was just too surreal for me. She has the memories of a girl that she's not and who she isn't even now? It's just a part of that girl? And they happen to have a personality sample of a girl who was abused by this particular guy? And why would they want a personality of someone who's been abused in that way? Booo... crappy storytelling.

The good parts are Paul Ballard (his fight scene is superb), Ballard and his boss does a better sum up of the Dollhouse than Adelle's explanation to Mr Crestejo, Topher and his already tense relationship to Dr. Saunders, Lubov (love him), seeing Sierra "made" and the ending with Alpha, that was good stuff.

Another bad: I don't like Caroline. I find her utterly unlikeable.


Discussion 2:
Now this is how it's done. Nice voice over explaining the Dolls succinctly and a thrilling episode showing how at risk the Dolls (also scary good scene with the handler/Doll bonding... how at the mercy a Doll is to her/his handler) are while intercutting with (a lot more interesting) flashbacks to the Alpha incident.

I really like Topher, Dewitt and Mr Dominic (he is just a bitch in the right way 🙂) and how they handle themselves.

I think Eliza is better in this episode than the first. Possibly because she's more used to this arena, she has done a lot of thriller/horror flicks.

Thought: Did Boyd only get Echo by pure accident?


Thoughts so far on the season:
Here's my thought, in the morally ambiguous area of the Dollhouse and "wiping" people. The Actives clearly remember their 'active' self. I.e Echo doesn't need to be imprinted to be Echo. Her blank state is Echo and everytime she's wiped she remembers that she is in fact Echo.

Technically, doesn't that mean that the wiped Dolls are just their real selves but without memories? Echo for example still has clear traits of Caroline's personality, so isn't she technically still Caroline, just without the memories that made Caroline who she was?

 

[Blaze]

Discussion 1.

I actually liked this as a pilot. It was over the top and confusing but it was super entertaining. Eliza's acting skills were much better than I had remembered.

The storyline was a bit silly but I had fun watching this episode. I thought hiring a doll did sort of made sense because couldn't you technically make a better expert out of a doll than any other expert out there. Like, you can combine many experts together to give pretty much the ultimate negotiator. As to why they didn't back ground check the girls though, that doesn't make sense. You would think that they would check the database prior to imprinting her with the memories of a girl who committed suicide.

I'm also curious as to where they get these scans. I'm also curious whether they imprinted her with an amalgam or simply with the complete personality and memories of that one girl. Because it doesn't seem like they actually tried to combine many girls into one, it just seems like they used one person. Especially when they explain the glasses and the asthma, why not make an amalgam of someone who have the skills of the first woman, and great lungs and eyes of someone else. Or maybe it's not that easy?

Also, I love Enver! I would cast that guy in everything. Actually, I had forgotten how good of a cast this show has, lots of really strong actors that I love.

Oh, and Eliza and that little white dress, that was good too haha.

I'll come back and discuss episode 2 a bit later.

 

[Taake]

Also, I love Enver! I would cast that guy in everything. Actually, I had forgotten how good of a cast this show has, lots of really strong actors that I love.

Agreed. Enver in everything! 😀 He's brilliant.
Agreed on the cast too. I feel most of them often outshine Echo even this early on.

 

[thetopher]

Discussion 1: 'Ghosts'

I liked the pilot a lot more than I remember doing, but I think that's because I know what's going on, and pretty much the direction things are going.
My first time watching I was really confused, but also intruiged by the entire concept, the situations.
But as pilots go I think it failed to give enough meat for the viewer to latch on to or enough of a hook to make you must see the next episode right away.

Some things I liked:

- Eliza dancing in pretty much a nightie. That sure was something. 😀

-I liked Topher. He's very likable. A very likable bastard right out of the gate. 🙂

- Eliza's much better than I remember, playing four roles in 50 minutes is tough. And I really thought she nailed Miss Penn, with the clipped words/tone and body language. She had to do 'unflappable but traumatised but still barely holding it together' and she does so really well. 🙂

- Boyd, Mr Dominic and Miss Dewitt all make first strong impressions as characters. But Topher was by far my favourite.

-I actually forgot Amy Acker was in this completely. *slaps his forhead like an idiot*. Dr. Sauders is an interesting character.


A couple of not so good things though.

- Not a fan of Caroline at all- the character, not the performance. I'm not a fan of 'better than thou' activist types.

- I do like Ballard as a character, but he's also a huge cliche', the 'reckless fed/cop who goes against his superiors' is so done to death. It's not till later that we find out what's really driving him, and its pretty weak as I remember.

- The drama of the hostage exchange, although well-done, was also massively contrived. I don't understand why Penn was given those memories if they weren't hers to begin with- it wasn't made clear to me why Topher did that, unless I missed something with his whole 'running to/from something' speech.


Overall, enjoyable but from the guy who wrote the Buffy/Angel/Firefly openers this should have rocked.
But it is a lot better than the original pilot though.

I'll do target tomorrow, I rember it being one of my S1 favourites. 🙂

 

[Taake]

- Eliza dancing in pretty much a nightie. That sure was something. 😀

Lol, I think a nightie is a generous description. That's like a top 😉
(I vaguely remember watching the commentary with Joss and Eliza and she comments on the dress being so short... or rather the camera being so low for that scene 😉)

- Eliza's much better than I remember, playing four roles in 50 minutes is tough. And I really thought she nailed Miss Penn, with the clipped words/tone and body language. She had to do 'unflappable but traumatised but still barely holding it together' and she does so really well. 🙂

Interesting that we viewed it so differently. I pretty much found her utterly unbelievable here and really found her acting on assumed clichés for her performance of Miss Penn.

🙂

 

[thetopher]

Interesting that we viewed it so differently. I pretty much found her utterly unbelievable here and really found her acting on assumed clichés for her performance of Miss Penn.
🙂

I actually understand where you're coming from a little bit.

When she first appears Penn is pretty...meh as a character, I've seen that 'unflappable profiler' bit done about a thousand times on 'Criminal Minds'. 🙄
But I did like the way she falls apart and then manages to put herself back together to face the 'ghost' from her past and rescue the little girl.

I thought it was quite heroic in a non-kick ass action kinda way. 🙂

 

[Taake]

Lol, I thought it was trite and cringeworthy. No offense to Eliza, I'm a fan of hers, but at that point I think she was stretched a bit thin, playing as you mentioned several parts in one single episodes (getting better at it later as she grew more used to it) although... she's not entirely to blame. I don't like the dialogue she has to deliver so now that I think about it I might actually have more problem with what she's saying rather than her performance...

 

[Fuffy Baith]

Ghost-I've only seen this episode twice before this and each time I remember tuning out and not finding it all that interesting, but this time I actual enjoyed some parts. I also forgot Dr. Saunders was in this episode. Up until the hostage exchange at the end, it kept my interest. Also Paul Ballard fighting with his shirt off 🙂. Although I don't know what we're supposed to take from that. Is it that he's just a fighter and is not going to give up on the case? Not the best episode but better than my memory of it was.

Also, if Mr Crestejo is already a client why (if not for exposition) does Adelle have to explain them to him?

I think Adele's speech is just for exposition to catch the audience up on what's going on. Same thing when Topher asks Boyd to just ask Echo. Topher knows that Boyd knows she can't remember so no need to point it out except to tell the audience that she just had her memory wiped. There's a lot of dialogue that feels like exposition just or the audience rather than actually conversations.

Eliza's acting skills were much better than I had remembered.
I thought hiring a doll did sort of made sense because couldn't you technically make a better expert out of a doll than any other expert out there.

I agree about Eliza's acting. Maybe it was just because I didn't pay a lot of attention the first two times or I thought it was boring, or maybe just because I've read a lot of comments about how bad Eliza's acting skills are, but my memory was she didn't do a good job as Miss Penn. Now I think she did a decent job especially with the whole glasses/asthma aspect of the character. I also think Eliza looks cute in glasses.
I thought they explained why they needed a doll pretty well. It does make sense that you could potentially make a best of the best negotiator and also he didn't want to involve authorities and the dolls memory can be wiped so it's like this all never happened.

I liked the pilot a lot more than I remember doing, but I think that's because I know what's going on, and pretty much the direction things are going. My first time watching I was really confused, but also intruiged by the entire concept, the situations.

I agree, like I said the first few times I was just not as engaged with it, but it could be like you said, now we know what's going on so it's easier to enjoy.




Target-This was the episode that made me keep watching the show. Richard the women hunter is extremely creepy and crazy. The scene after they have sex and he tells her to run, was uncomfortable and a bit disturbing to watch. The flashback scenes are a nice way of showing us the Dollhouse past, how Boyd came to work there and how Doctor Saunders got her scars. Also setting up Alpha as big threat. It is kind of sad seeing Echo get attached to these guys on engagements, when we know that it's not real and she won't remember any of it. Echo flipping the 'do you trust me line' back on Boyd and him responding 'with my life' was a nice scene showing that maybe their more their relationship than just active/handler.

Thought: Did Boyd only get Echo by pure accident?
Echo doesn't need to be imprinted to be Echo. Her blank state is Echo and everytime she's wiped she remembers that she is in fact Echo.

I think that yea, after Alpha killed Echo's previous handler, Boyd was assigned, and knowing the ending of the show, it totally makes sense. That's a good question. I think it's explained later by Topher that, he takes away their original personality in place of a more subdued personality 'active state' so that it can accommodate adding personalities. They have all basic motor functions but no drive. But it's a good question of how do they retain those memories of being in active state after each wipe.

But it is a lot better than the original pilot though.

I actually like the unaired pilot. A lot of scenes from it are used throughout the first season anyways. But there's a nice scene with Echo and Paul Ballard in his apartment that to me explains a lil bit more about his character and his motives, which I never picked up on until watching the unaired pilot.

Also, I love Enver! I would cast that guy in everything. Actually, I had forgotten how good of a cast this show has, lots of really strong actors that I love.
Oh, and Eliza and that little white dress, that was good too haha.

It really does have a great cast and there are episodes where they do outshine Echo. But I'll talk more about that when we get to those scenes.

There's an episode of the Jimmy Kimbel show where Eliza shows up in that 'dress' and she's got the leather pants on that she was wearing when she was riding the bike(I don't know why she would take them off later but o well). And clearly it's a blouse not a dress. She also shoots a bow on that episode. But yes Eliza looks hot dancing around in that dress shirt.

As for the season so far, I think the concept is interesting, and at this point without knowing what the future holds, I think there is a lot of things they can do with it.

 

[sk]

I don't think the first episode is particular good as a pilot.
The pilot should feel a little bit special. I like to see a good pilot and not until you have watched the second episode you will have a feel for how a regular episode will look like.

Here it feels like the pilot is that second episode and it makes me feel like I am missing something.

In "The Target" I mostly enjoyed the flashbacks.
The season arc with Alpha is kinda intriguing. The main story of the episode was okay but rather predictable.

Regarding the characters it's true that the supporting cast is more interesting than Echo herself.
I particular enjoy Topher too. He's a character you really like but still wonder what makes him be the way he is.

So far it feels pretty much as I remember it. Good, and worth watching, but not brilliant.

/SK

 

[thetopher]

Okay, so I caved and watched this one tonight!

"The Target" Now this, this is so much better. 🙂

I'll admit that I love this episode so much more because I love the outdoors, rafting, climbing, camping, even some archery. I'd pretty much love to do everything in the episode.
I have cut down on all my woman-hunting though, it's just too much trouble. 😉

Plus, although the 'wilderness hunt' thing has been done before (I particularly remember an episode of the Incredible Hulk tv series. 🙂) it was really well done here, well-paced, tense- with a bit of a slasher movie vibe.
Like 'Wrong Turn, only much better!

I like the way it goes from post-sex cutseyness in the tent to really dead serious situation on a dime- very effective and creepy. 🙂

Hunter guy was a pretty good bad guy, and had this smug smirk that I was just waiting for Jenny (the imprint) to knock off his face. When she turns the tables on him, its so sweet to see.
Plus I like the way she kept on having flashbacks/hallucinations about her other selves. 🙂

But most of all I enjoyed the opening scene (very tense), and all the flashbacks that saw how Boyd came to work at the Dollhouse, plus all the little hints about how dangerous Alpha was.
The reversal between Boyd and Echo in the woods was nicely done, emphasising how his view of her, their relationship, had evolved- contrasting nicely with Domonic's attitude at the end of the episode. (What a jerk!)

Also I liked the sweet scene between Ballard and Mellie the neighbour- she is so cute! I rather like these two as a couple. 🙂

Eliza actually made less of an impression here than in the previous ep, probably because I've seen her in 'Slasher-movie' mode fairly recently, so I didn't think it was much of a stretch for her.
Although having said that she has indicated that this was one of the more memorable 'imprints' for her that she really enjoyed playing- she's pretty outdoorsy herself 🙂

Good episode. More about Boyd, more about Ballard, and hints about big, bad Alpha.

 

[Taake]

I think Adele's speech is just for exposition to catch the audience up on what's going on. There's a lot of dialogue that feels like exposition just or the audience rather than actually conversations.

I think so too but that's what I hate about it. It's so ham-handed. Exposition should never feel cumbersome or forced in that way.

🙂

But I suppose that's what happens when you make an original pilot that gets thrown out the window and you have to make a new one pretty quickly.

I like the way it goes from post-sex cutseyness in the tent to really dead serious situation on a dime- very effective and creepy. 🙂

Also I liked the sweet scene between Ballard and Mellie the neighbour- she is so cute! I rather like these two as a couple. 🙂

Agreed. That guy was great in that because it's so creepy when he turns on her so suddenly and coldly. You just feel the air shift.

Me too, forgot to mention that. I like the introduction of Mellie, she just really feels like a regular sweet girl.

 

[sk]

I like the way it goes from post-sex cutseyness in the tent to really dead serious situation on a dime- very effective and creepy. 🙂

I mostly noticed how Jenny/Echo went from being, erm, not clothed to being very fully clothed in a heartbeat.
She just seemed a bit too properly dressed, with two layer top, for someone who just had been given a 5 minutes head start from being hunted to death.

It just felt so off that I reacted to it. 🙂

/SK

 

[thetopher]

I mostly noticed how Jenny/Echo went from being, erm, not clothed to being very fully clothed in a heartbeat.
She just seemed a bit too properly dressed, with two layer top, for someone who just had been given a 5 minutes head start from being hunted to death.

It just felt so off that I reacted to it. 🙂

/SK

Yeah, I noticed that too, three layers of clothing. I did want some skimpy exploitation here. y'know! 😀

However, it didn't really bother me, 'elastic time' is kind of a TV thing I've seen literally dozens of times- it happens on pretty much every show so much that I ignore it.
it happened on Buffy tons of times. 🙂

 

[Taake]

Haha, I didn't even notice or think about that at all 🙂

 

[Fuffy Baith]

Yea she did get pretty given a 8 minute head start and having to put her clothes on. But if someone told me they were going to be hunting me, I'd be dressed and running in a heartbeat too.

No skimpy clothes but she did eventually take the top layer off. I thought it was a cute outfit though.

 

[Blaze]

Here's my late arrival to the party for Target. So this is by far the episode that I remembered most from my first watch, don't even know why because it's not that great or anything (I mean it is good, but now spectacular). Overall, good Horror genre type episode, super cool to see how Echo is different than the other dolls, or remarkably similar to Alpha.

Loved the back story, and loved the opening. Alpha is still one of my favourite storyline upon rewatch, I find the mystery behind it super intriguing.

And I really like Boyd and Adele.

 

[Fuffy Baith]

Here's my late arrival to the party for Target. So this is by far the episode that I remembered most from my first watch, don't even know why because it's not that great or anything (I mean it is good, but now spectacular). Overall, good Horror genre type episode, super cool to see how Echo is different than the other dolls, or remarkably similar to Alpha.

Loved the back story, and loved the opening. Alpha is still one of my favourite storyline upon rewatch, I find the mystery behind it super intriguing.

And I really like Boyd and Adele.

Glad to have you back 🙂 After 'Ghost', 'Target' is what kept me wanting to watch more of the show and introducing the setup of Alpha was what kept me intrigued.

 

[Taake]

The Target really stood out in my memory too from my first watch, I think there's something about the horror-drama that's just memorable, maybe not the most awesome or original plotline ever, but memorable 🙂

Agree, the Alpha plotline got me interested from the start and it still does (even though I know where it's going 😉)

 

[thetopher]

Yeah, its the beginning of 'Target' that really grabs your attention, plus all the flashbacks and background scenes.

The main plot is well done generic stuff that I enjoyed but the other stuff had me really intrigued. 🙂

 

[Taake]

I didn't mention it before but I think that the guy who plays Echo's paramour/hunter is fantastic in "The Target" and he is part of what makes the episode so memorable to me. Being a believable homicidal maniac who would concievably take people out in the forrest to hunt them is not the easiest thing to play without it becoming a bit too unbelievable. I think he does a great job. When he turns on her it's truly chilling and his kind of gleeful hunt of her is perfectly balanced. Good job on him.