Dollhouse Re-watch (s2): "Epitath 2: The Return"

Taake

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re-watch discussion
episode 13

"Epitath 2: The Return"

"Hey we just left that party! That party was on fire!"
  • Yay, Zone is back. I love him (love that he used to be a landscape architect) and his whole attitude.
    "Who doesn't want to spend some time with these awesomely normal people."
  • Eliza's brother is in the episode as Ambrose. They look so much alike!
  • Love Echo's look. The gray hairs really fit her.
  • Topher... my heart is broken. End of story. I love and adore the way we see Adelle and Topher interact here. Very sweet mother and son moments.
  • Love the Tony and Priya relationship and how that has played out.
  • Also love the techheads. It feels like Tony really is the type of person who would fall into something like that.
  • Love that Alpha is good now and that it's just not explained how it happened. Also, come on "Did he just call me a Luddite" I love it! 🙂

Paul's death is disturbingly awesome. I love the abruptness, I love Echo's stoic reaction (which moves me more then if she had broken down then and there) and her later meltdown. Good job ED! I do not like Paul in her head in the end... it's too weird for me. Also, does Echo 'hang out' with the other personalities like that. I was over the impression that she could slip in and out of them but not that they were talking amongst each other.

Now, lingering questions:
Question: Is it a good idea to let Alpha go off alone when the pulse hits? Even before imprints he was a psychokiller so wouldn't it be better if he too stayed underground and remained good Alpha?

Question: This episode makes me think of Epitath 1 where Whisky is in the old Dollhouse. Last we saw her she was Clyde in Tuscon. Did he get tired of the body and leave? Why would they send her back to 'our' Dollhouse then? If they didn't send her then how did she get there? This is the one loose end that annoys me.


All in all - brilliant end to the series. Sincerely brilliant! Love it and I love the song "Everywhere I go" wrapping things up.
 
Epitaph 2

Ah, the return of Zone and Meg. I've known Zone for about 45 minutes and I feel I know his character twice as well as the ones on most other shows. Love his humour.
And love the apocalypse, the struggle, the grim-ness of it all. I remember this being a very good series finale.

- Neuropolis is the one thing here that rings false. Stupid name. Creepy concept though.

- I love Eliza with a streak of grey. She works that look...but then again what look doesn't she work.

-Aw, poor broken Topher. I really like the way he and Adelle interact now, her potective/motherly nature towards him (and the way she threatens Zone...Adelle still knows how to threaten.)

-Strawberries again. I think these are the Firefly/Dollhouse equivelent of the Buffyverse Jelly Donut. Some writer really likes them. 😉

- 'She's a tech-head Meg.' Pause...'She's a girl, Meg.' I love how this completly throws him. 😀

- In those 10 years Paul seems to have fallen for Echo all over again and yet she's the one who's now pushing him away. Curious.

- I love the way that Paul's death is handled like such a non-event (sort of like Anya's only more so) and that Echo just takes it in even though we're in shock.
It also makes her breakdown later on way more devestating.
One of ED's finest hours- it made me sad for her and Paul. Her crying 'I'm always alone' could've been cheesy but I got choked up because of her line delivery. 🙁

- I really like reformed Alpha. Somehow Joss makes this reformed villain seem fresh and original even though its a fairly well-worn trope at this point.

- I like that Pria and Tony managed to reconnect, although I remember being more affected by their reconciliation the first time around. Still, its nice that they'll have a year or so to rebond as a family, now that Tony's turned his back on the tech and the war.

Topher sacrificing himself was really moving- I always wonder what he noticed on the wall just before he died.

- Although I like the ending, and I'm glad that Echo got to say goodbye to Paul...but now he's stuck in her head forever.
What if they fight and fall out? What if they tired of each other? (the way that some couples do) What if Echo means somebody else and falls in love all over again? (it's entirely possible)
That's pain for Paul.
And would it be indelicate to ask if they can have sex? Some sort of fantasy mind-sex? What if Echo wants to experience physical intimacy with somebody else?

Ah, I don't care...it's that song, its so incredibly moving. (I have 'Everywhere I Go' on my iPod) I love the scene of Echo walking through the Dollhouse- finally content/happy as she passes her friends, the people she's helped. and then goes to one of her pods to rest/dream. At least she's not alone now, the future's something else to worry about. 🙂

One last thought- I'm glad that Echo is still firmly in the driving seat and that Caroline is just one. More. Voice. Haha, suck it. Go Echo. 😛


Overall a great series that could've been a fantastic series with another season or 2 (or 3- I think it was a five year contract for a reason).

Eliza wasn't the best actor on the show, but she undoubtably had the screen presence to carry all of her scenes- she was always so watchable whoever she was that week, and Echo remains one of my favourite characters (complete Echo that is- I know we don't get her for long and that's a shame)
Also don't forget that ED was one of the shows producers- she could've made the show all about Echo and nothing else...*cough* Charmed *cough*

Everybody else was brilliant, a quality ensemble cast with no dead weight to be seen. Topher. Adelle. Boyd. Mellie/November (not Madeline...) Whiskey/Saunders. Victor/Tony. Sierra/Pria. Alpha...even Ballard mostly. 😀
All of them were great/memorable Joss characters- and I'm glad that the show go to tell a complete story with its custom wit/plot twists and turns, even though there was potential there for so much more.

One of the most underrated sci-fi shows ever. 🙂
 
"Epitath 2: The Return"

At times I feel that a series in this settings would've been an even better series.

Rough ending for Paul.
Can't remember how I felt about that before. Now I kinda like it. He just gets killed off and everyone moves on and deals with it later. Nice.

Feels bad for Topher. He's really messed up. But that makes sense.
His and Adele's relationship is lovely to see.

I agree with theTopher about the name "Neuropolis". I actually reacted to that when I saw it and though that it just sounded silly.

The ending leaves ju with a nice fuzzy feeling.
Which is good I guess...


So... must say that the show was/is better than I remember it.
But that's often the case. Especially when hanging on these forum and you keep reading negative stuff.
It's the same every time I re-watch BtVS. Many times I manage to convince myself that certain episode might not be so good after all.
But every time I watch it I'm always loving it just as much as always.

Dollhouse isn't a perfect show. I don't rank it at the absolute top.
But at it's best its really great. The overall idea is very interesting.
The main issue is some standalone episode in the beginning. Especially the pilot doesn't feel very strong imho.

Thanks for organising this re-watch. I wasn't supposed to join in.
Even think I never officially said that I would in the startup thread.
I just hanged on anyway, thanks for not throwing me out. 😉

/SK
 
I'm a little confused, is the kid Caroline or Echo? Because she's acting more like Echo than Caroline.

Overall, I liked Epitaph 1 more than this one. This one was still amazing though. I remember the first time I watched it being really shocked that Prya and Tony weren't together anymore. So the tech guys are essentially junkies. Interesting, not sure I like what they did to Victor's character there, but that's a story I would have loved to see build up.

What happened to Paul having the Echo part of his brain removed. Seems like he cares a lot now, maybe it's something he built overtime. Either way, I kind of like this Echo and Paul together. The smartest thing they did on this show was change who Paul was lol. The ending was a bit weird though with Echo imprinting herself with Paul.

Angel's theme song!

OMG...Paul dying. OMG. Didn't think I could actually feel sad about that. Echo's breakdown is proof that Eliza can act. That scene had me in tears.

Ugh, one thing that frustrates me, once more, is lack of time. I really want to know how they got Alpha to be sane like that. I want to see the journey, from everyone, not just the ending.

Topher was a highlight for me. Utterly heartbreaking is the only way to put it.

Overall, all I can say is that the is the series finale that has left me the most emotional. Joss Whedon, I love you and I hate you for this, but
mostly I love you.

After this rewatch, I still maintain my opinion that this is the most underrated TV show that I've seen. It had its fault, but it was just brilliant. Completely brilliant, and heartbreaking, and though provoking.

Question: This episode makes me think of Epitath 1 where Whisky is in the old Dollhouse. Last we saw her she was Clyde in Tuscon. Did he get tired of the body and leave? Why would they send her back to 'our' Dollhouse then? If they didn't send her then how did she get there? This is the one loose end that annoys me.

This is something that I wondered too. But at the end of The Hollow Men, one of them says "We got Saunders", we just don't see her in the end shot. So I assume that they brought her back to the dollhouse at the end and imprinted her again with Dr.Saunders. As to how she became the person we see in Epitaph 1, I'm not too sure. I'm surprise that she wasn't in this episode at all. That loose end will bother me a lot too.

Paul's death is disturbingly awesome. I love the abruptness, I love Echo's stoic reaction (which moves me more then if she had broken down then and there) and her later meltdown. Good job ED! I do not like Paul in her head in the end... it's too weird for me. Also, does Echo 'hang out' with the other personalities like that. I was over the impression that she could slip in and out of them but not that they were talking amongst each other.

Now I just picture Echo having a conversation with Paul by constantly slipping from Paul to Echo. The whole thing is just weird. I never really saw Echo as being able to "hang out" with the personalities like that either, I think maybe they just did that to give us the Paul Echo closure, but it came off as just plain weird.

Also, I'm wondering the same thing about Alpha. But then Echo says he'll evolve again, I'm not sure what that means.

Topher sacrificing himself was really moving- I always wonder what he noticed on the wall just before he died.

I thought it was just the "Remember" collage at the back with the pictures of all the dolls. Poor, poor Topher.

Eliza wasn't the best actor on the show, but she undoubtably had the screen presence to carry all of her scenes- she was always so watchable whoever she was that week, and Echo remains one of my favourite characters (complete Echo that is- I know we don't get her for long and that's a shame)
Also don't forget that ED was one of the shows producers- she could've made the show all about Echo and nothing else...*cough* Charmed *cough

I agree with this. A lot of people say that Eliza is not a strong enough actress to carry a show, but I disagree. She might not have been the best here (and that would have been hard to do because the cast was just so dam perfect), but Eliza did dam fine in the role. Echo is also one of my favorite character. And I love how she definitely has a personality unique to her, I feel like I could recognize Eliza playing Echo, vs Eliza playing Caroline, and this is a good thing.

I also had no idea that ED was a producer for the show. She definitely did a good job both as an actress and as a producer, she should be proud of the show they put out there.

At times I feel that a series in this settings would've been an even better series.

The way I see it, if they would have not been cancelled, they should have extended s2 to show that 6 months (or was it 3?) time gap where Echo evolves, then have s3 focus on building the head of Rossum into more details, more Boyd and better explanations for it. Have s4 build on the 10 year gap leading to the apocalypse. And have the 5th season taking place during the apocalypse. You're right thought! The apocalypse setting would have made for an excellent show. I think it was important to see the lead up too, I wish the show was longer.
 
I was also wondering about the kid being imprinted cause it seems like she's Echo and I'm like - Echo as an imprint seems incredibly complex. Like when they're using their med skills and the kids says that she learned it the same place Echo did... well Echo learned from one of her many, many imprints.... does that mean that the kid also has all those people jostling around in her head? Because if that's so then Echo's "I'm the only one, I'm the only one" is just an attention getter (😉 thank you Xander for that one)
 
Epitaph 2: The Return
Great episode! Poor poor Topher 🙁 "Bedtime!" Oh Topher, he just breaks my heart in this episode. Adele and Topher is just wonderful. I also like the lil bit of Adele in the garden, its nice seeing that soft side.

I like the extras sitting at the table just get up and leave to make room for the cast. That is clearly only something that happens in shows.
When Echo says "I've let you in a few times" was that implying they had sex? And yea why is Echo not all over Paul. Is it because they took her out of him so it took a few years for him to gain those feelings back? She doesn't want to let him in cause she's scared? Idk.

So what is a butcher? A dumbshow is basically a doll right? Completely wiped. So a butcher is someone imprinted and gone crazy like Alpha?

Tony and Priya's story is so sad, but it fits his character I think from what we saw the last episode where he wanted to use the chair to help and she didn't. I like the concept of the "techheads".

OMG they killed Paul, so quickly and Echo just moves on.
So how long has Alpha been good? How long had past since Zone and Meg were in the Dollhouse? Aw Alpha feels bad Paul died considering he killed Paul the first time.vSo is Alpha like Echo? A real person now. Cause before we saw a difference between them. His imprints were driving him crazy and he couldn't really control them but now he seems more at peace I guess and more like Echo. So is she not the only one capable. I guess he also doesn't have as many imprints as her.

Totally forgot the Tech heads turned on them, and pointing guns at Topher. That's awesome. The asian saying "oh god she's so cool" after Echo kicks their but was funny.

Echo's breakdown made me tear up. Eliza's always been good at doing these rageful outbursts. Anyone seen 'Bye Bye Love'? Where she plays the bratty teenager. I love that movie, so funny.

Oh my god Bennett. I can't even...it's too soon.

Sidenote: In the scene where they arrive in LA and jump off the truck Eliza actually slipped and broke her arm I think. Or seriously injured it. She had to get a cast and go back to filming the next day. Which is why she is just holding the gun in the same position.
 
I like the extras sitting at the table just get up and leave to make room for the cast. That is clearly only something that happens in shows.
When Echo says "I've let you in a few times" was that implying they had sex? And yea why is Echo not all over Paul. Is it because they took her out of him so it took a few years for him to gain those feelings back? She doesn't want to let him in cause she's scared? Idk.

Those are good questions. A lot is left very ambiguous. Seems like you might be right, because they removed Echo from Paul, it most likely took him years to get back to where his feelings were and by that time Echo had built walls. I was surprised when she said that she never told him she loved him.

So what is a butcher? A dumbshow is basically a doll right? Completely wiped. So a butcher is someone imprinted and gone crazy like Alpha?

I assume they are imprints made by Rossum to make people crazy. Why though, I have no idea? I'm not sure if they just lost control of the technology, or if that's what they wanted. Because I don't see the point of having hordes of zombies, so I'm assuming they lost control.

OMG they killed Paul, so quickly and Echo just moves on.
So how long has Alpha been good? How long had past since Zone and Meg were in the Dollhouse? Aw Alpha feels bad Paul died considering he killed Paul the first time.vSo is Alpha like Echo? A real person now. Cause before we saw a difference between them. His imprints were driving him crazy and he couldn't really control them but now he seems more at peace I guess and more like Echo. So is she not the only one capable. I guess he also doesn't have as many imprints as her.

This confused me too. Echo says that Alpha evolved, so I guess he is like Echo. In a way, he has to be because overall he has a very similar path as Echo to becoming self conscious and being able to have multiple imprints, he just wasn't as in control. So I'm guessing he just took longer to evolve. Perhaps Echo found him during that 10 year period and taught him how to do it. I want to know more about this too.
 
Question: Is it a good idea to let Alpha go off alone when the pulse hits? Even before imprints he was a psycho-killer so wouldn't it be better if he too stayed underground and remained good Alpha?
Question: This episode makes me think of Epitath 1 where Whisky is in the old Dollhouse. Last we saw her she was Clyde in Tuscon. Did he get tired of the body and leave? Why would they send her back to 'our' Dollhouse then? If they didn't send her then how did she get there? This is the one loose end that annoys me.
Yea I don't think it's a good idea to let Alpha out. Why would he want to go back anyways. Yea Topher says at the end of the last episode they got Saunders out. So I assume they brought her back to the Dollhouse. Although I don't think they imprinted her as Dr. Saunders, cause she seems very much like a doll in Epitaph 1 and she doesn't have her scars. So maybe the plan was to restore her to her old self but they never go that far.
I love Eliza with a streak of grey. She works that look...but then again what look doesn't she work.
I didn't like it when she had bangs or wore a blonde wig for Halloween. But she rocks the gray streak.
One of ED's finest hours- it made me sad for her and Paul. Her crying 'I'm always alone' could've been cheesy but I got choked up because of her line delivery. 🙁
Echo's breakdown made me tear up. Eliza's always been good at doing these rageful outbursts. Anyone seen 'Bye Bye Love'? Where she plays the bratty teenager. I think she says something similar to being alone in that movie also. I love that movie, so funny.
- Although I like the ending, and I'm glad that Echo got to say goodbye to Paul...but now he's stuck in her head forever.
What if they fight and fall out? What if they tired of each other? (the way that some couples do) What if Echo means somebody else and falls in love all over again? (it's entirely possible)
Yea I don't like it. There is a funny blooper of that scene though, were Eliza says to him "does this mean you're going to make me play with my boobies" And Tahmohs like "Yes!" And they burst out laughing. But that brings up the question of if Eliza does, do something with her body does Paul then feel it and get excited? Does that apply to all the other people in her head? What about Terry the psycho?
I'm a little confused, is the kid Caroline or Echo? Because she's acting more like Echo than Caroline.
I think she is Echo. Cause we see in the flashback that Echo is asking to be backed up on a hard drive and that's the one that the girl gets imprinted with. Although I think that backing up Echo combines all of her personalities into one to get stored. It can get confusing if you think about it too much.
I thought it was just the "Remember" collage at the back with the pictures of all the dolls. Poor, poor Topher.
Yea but then he says "Huh?" likes he saw something specific. I also wonder what that is. A new idea, a face he recognized, a message? What! Tell me Joss. lol
I agree with this. A lot of people say that Eliza is not a strong enough actress to carry a show, but I disagree. She might not have been the best here (and that would have been hard to do because the cast was just so dam perfect), but Eliza did dam fine in the role.
I think Eliza does a good job, she has her moments where she doesn't deliver but it is also contrasted by the excellent performances of the supporting cast, especially Adele and Victor. Enver just knocks it out of the park when he has to do imprints. It's hard to say who could do better in this role. Amy Acker probably a great candidate but I do think that Eliza pulls off the badass ness a little bit better. But Elizas acting has never been a reason to not like the show to me. I think the really weak S1 episodes and the bad time slot are what doomed this show.

After this ending I really wish they would have gotten more seasons. There is so much you could do. I've also heard people say they find the premise of the show just too creepy to even watch. But the people trafficking and mind wiping thing was always what Joss and Eliza planned on. She is very proud of the show and she should be. To me, yes it's creepy and uncomfortable to watch sometimes but that's what I like. It's thought provoking, it makes you think and question and pushes us beyond our comfort level. And that's when we allow ourselves to grow. So for me I think this show is great but I can see why people aren't willing to open themselves up to it. It's a shame cause your right it's under-rated.

Also sad this re-watch is at an end, I had a great time discussing it with you guys. But I have a lil bit more free time now to get caught up on some other shows I've been neglecting. 
Those are good questions. A lot is left very ambiguous. Seems like you might be right, because they removed Echo from Paul, it most likely took him years to get back to where his feelings were and by that time Echo had built walls. I was surprised when she said that she never told him she loved him.

I assume they are imprints made by Rossum to make people crazy. Why though, I have no idea? I'm not sure if they just lost control of the technology, or if that's what they wanted. Because I don't see the point of having hordes of zombies, so I'm assuming they lost control.
Yea, but she let him in a few times 😉 when the world was ending. Which totally makes sense.

Yea the butchers don't make sense why they run around like zombies. What is the purpose of killing people. Wouldn't they just want to wipe everyone. But this is what we see in the attic, Clyde's nightmare of the future. So I think the tech just got out of control somehow and turned people crazy. Idk.
 
Some more questions just popped into my head. Ok so something in Echo's brain can block imprints and that is what gets stored in her spinal fluid. Is it the same thing that allows her to retain all of her personalities? Did I miss an explanation somewhere about that? Also is that something that Rossum wanted? Her ability to retain imprints?

Also Boyd says that Caroline was special because they have the results of her bone marrow match tests. Was this him saying he knew about the stuff in her spinal fluid? Why would he know this? How would they know what to look for in Caroline, some random terrorist. They didn't know that she had the cure in her so how would they be able to gain that information without knowing what to look for in her?

This is just me thinking way to much about how this would really play out, the practical questions real people would be asking. Or maybe I'm the only one that would be asking these things.
 
Some more questions just popped into my head. Ok so something in Echo's brain can block imprints and that is what gets stored in her spinal fluid. Is it the same thing that allows her to retain all of her personalities? Did I miss an explanation somewhere about that? Also is that something that Rossum wanted? Her ability to retain imprints?

Also Boyd says that Caroline was special because they have the results of her bone marrow match tests. Was this him saying he knew about the stuff in her spinal fluid? Why would he know this? How would they know what to look for in Caroline, some random terrorist. They didn't know that she had the cure in her so how would they be able to gain that information without knowing what to look for in her?

This is just me thinking way to much about how this would really play out, the practical questions real people would be asking. Or maybe I'm the only one that would be asking these things.

I think her ability to retain imprints is probably of little interest. That it's the chemical reaction to the insertion and blocking of them that creates what Rossum wants and then whether or not they stick around is probably just a side effect Rossum doesn't care about. (or the fact that they stick around is part of the process... not sure, don't think they were too clear on that)

Well he said that her blood work was phenomenal right? So they must have seen some kind of aberration on a cellular level that they wanted to experiment with. I don't think they knew for sure she had the cure in her, which was why they had to keep pushing her and testing her to evolve, to see. But they probably had a hum or a hope that there was the possibility of a cure in her.
 
I think her ability to retain imprints is probably of little interest. That it's the chemical reaction to the insertion and blocking of them that creates what Rossum wants and then whether or not they stick around is probably just a side effect Rossum doesn't care about. (or the fact that they stick around is part of the process... not sure, don't think they were too clear on that)

Well he said that her blood work was phenomenal right? So they must have seen some kind of aberration on a cellular level that they wanted to experiment with. I don't think they knew for sure she had the cure in her, which was why they had to keep pushing her and testing her to evolve, to see. But they probably had a hum or a hope that there was the possibility of a cure in her.
Thanks, I am perfectly happy with this answer. That makes sense on why they were letting her evolve in s1 and why Boyd assigned himself to Echo.
 
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