Dollhouse Re-watch (s2): "Stop-Loss" & "The Attic"

[Taake]

Re-watch discussion
episodes
"Stop-loss" (9) & "The Attic" (10)
​

Stop-Loss:
The best thing about this episode is the end honestly. I remember that it shocked and horrified me the first time around (and made me so mad at Adelle) . It still had the power to make me uncomfortable. Adelle gives me chills when she wants to. All hail Olivia Williams 🙂

The second best thing about the episode is drunk Adelle.

Basically in an episode about Viktor and Priya, finally, they are not really what shines for me about it.
I don't know why this story doesn't work for me. At the core I think it is because it really only reminds me about the fact that they should have gotten three seasons to really explore these theme thoroughly (oh, how one can imagine how much deeper the show would have gone with 13 more eps to its disposal). As it is I suppose one should be content with getting an episode like this, but in the end I just find it silly and though it makes sense within the rules of the universe - Echo's override of the soliders just makes me roll my eyes.

The Attic:

"I have seen the future Mr. Langdon and it is not for the weak"

This is a favorite episode of mine and I was looking forward to seeing it again. Yes, I have a soft spot for Reed Diamond so I was partly just enjoying the return of Mr. Dominic (in his own words "good times" 😉)

Firstly - the invention of the Attic and it's details is genius storytelling. All of our heroes nightmarish states are horrible and cringeworthy. I also love that Viktor is fighting himself in his. And oh yes, I love having Mr. Dominic back and on Echo's side this time.

Also like the introduction and backstory of Clyde. But then... well we'll get to that later...

In the Dollhouse:
Poor Paul. The scene after he's been imprinted (hats off to Tahmoh, great acting) is great. I feel so bad for him for becoming a Doll, even if it is only as himself. Great scene with him grabbing a gun and storming in on Adelle.

"I don't want to die."
"Then only one of us will be disappointed."

Gold.

Oh and Boyd. Oh Boyd. Troubles at home, being a doll (not a Doll 😉) with Topher.... everything about him breaks my heart because I love him so much and I know where this is going and I don't like it.

Back to the Attic:
Viktor killing Sierra... I don't... can't even... wow...

Love the song by Anna Ternheim "No, I don't remember". Very effectful in the moment.

Great ending with the reveal of Adelle's true purpose. Yay, I can love her again 😉 But also, boooo Caroline... zzzzzzzzz.... the most overrated/boring character in the Dollhouse verse. "It's time to win her war" - blah. It's not her war anymore Echo, it's yours.



And now to the "but then..."
I really feel like I understand the lack of audience for the show now that I'm watching it this way. I've only ever watched it marathon-style before and then it's great. But like this, weekly and chopped up, I'm not connecting to the characters or to the story. A great part of the dialogue of The Attic, which was a favorite of mine, just came across as ridiculous and unconvincing this time. So while I still enjoy the show I doubt it would have managed to catch my interest if I hadn't initially watched it with all episodes available to me.

 

[Taake]

Hey guys, how about watching three episodes next week? I.e. The last two AND Epitath 2, instead of waiting a week for Epitath 2.

 

[Blaze]

Oh I am so behind on this!! I've been really sick this past month 🙁 It's put me really behind work hence why I didn't have time to watch Dollhouse. I will catch up on these two eps and A Love Supreme this weekend. And I can watch the last 3 episodes the weekend after so I'm fine with that 🙂

 

[Fuffy Baith]

'Stop-Loss'
Topher finding out about Adele being Ms. Lonelyhearts. Victor waking up and asking for Sierra was cute, I guess they aren't that concerned since his contract is almost up. But the should really be more concerned about 'grouping' and not retaining their imprints.

Shouldn't Echo be trying harder to act like a Doll instead of having conversations with everyone I guess she's not concerned about Adele finding out.
"This one makes me feel good about myself" this tells me that Topher actually believed that he was helping people.

I like Boyd explaining to Victor/Tony how the process works and the cover-up story he will use. Just another little insight to how the Dollhouse works.
Shirtless Enver! 🙂 I like that he sleeps in the tub because subconsciously it reminds him of the pods. Silk pillows, I want!
Also how does Echo open the pod so easily when last time she cut her hand.

Drunk Adele is great! Her lying to Harding and stumbling to get her shoes on then screaming at Boyd. Don't really care for Echo standing up to Adele. Echo switching in and out of imprints without trying is interesting. I guess the blind imprint paid off. lol

Naughty Pirate Wench? I want to know this engagement.

It's sweet Echo tries to let Victor and Sierra leave. Scary Adele, is scary. Does the flashy lights serve any real purpose in prepping an active for the attic? I think it's just to make it look scarier.

'The Attic'
No opening credits this episode. Does that mean they needed the extra minute?

I feel bad for the actors who had to lay in that weird liquid covered in plastic in those shiny outfits.
I thought the tree and the snow in the Dollhouse was pretty. The rest of the Attic is a pretty scary place.

Poor Ivy, I think Topher called her a storm-trooper. But she was there in the end meeting, so maybe she got upgraded. lol

How did Adele find out about Nolan? Speaking of Nolan, Priya's nightmare was super creepy.

More of scary, threatening Adele. Oliva Williams is so great!

So Clyde is the original Topher and Rossum has been working on this since '93. So why does Echo just assume it was Caroline? Also why would they let Caroline in? What is so special about Caroline? Why is this Caroline's war? Caroline to me just doesn't make any sense. I just don't care about her.

Poor Paul 🙁 I like that Adele already has the gun drawn on him before he even walks in. So Adele had it all planned, but how would she know that Echo can survive it.
I really like Priya speaking up and saying they're a team. Couldn't Echo find another way to get them out of the attic without them needing to flatline.

I don't know why this story doesn't work for me. At the core I think it is because it really only reminds me about the fact that they should have gotten three seasons to really explore these theme thoroughly (oh, how one can imagine how much deeper the show would have gone with 13 more eps to its disposal).

Viktor killing Sierra... I don't... can't even... wow...
Love the song by Anna Ternheim "No, I don't remember". Very effectful in the moment.

Great ending with the reveal of Adelle's true purpose. Yay, I can love her again 😉 But also, boooo Caroline... zzzzzzzzz.... the most overrated/boring character in the Dollhouse verse. "It's time to win her war" - blah. It's not her war anymore Echo, it's yours.

I think you're right, it partly doesn't work because clearly there is much more story to be told about Rossum and those soldiers but it does't get to go anywhere. I think introducing this concept so late in the game just doesn't work. I also can't really relate too much to Tony and his PTSD soldier story (don't get me wrong, it's terrible what those soldiers have to endure) but I can't connect with it as much as Priya's story where I think every girl has that fear of being abused by a man.

Victor killing Sierra was so sad and dark, and what a great song they played.

Yay for loving Adele. See she's not completely a bad person, she wants to take down Rossum too. Yes, we don't care about Caroline. We didn't connect with her in those flashback scenes from S1. We're not too clear on her motives, other than she's a stereotypical animal rights extreme activist. At this point in the show, that's all we know about her and her connection to Rossum. So it's hard to believe in show one that they keep telling us is 'special' when we haven't seen anything like that from Caroline. And as far as we know she doesn't know about the Dollhouse and the mind wiping stuff that Rossum has been doing, so it's like her only motivation is the animal stuff at this point, which doesn't seem like a big enough reason to bring down the company. It just doesn't make any sense at this point in the show, so we just don't care.

And yea we can do 3 episodes next week. But post Epitaph 2 separately so we can discuss that and the show as a whole.

 

[sk]

Stop-Loss
This is a mixed episode. Some really good parts and some not so good.
Adelle is great. It's sad to see her so defeated, fun to see her drunk and scary to see her towards the end when she taking back control.

Love how the show can have a classy character like Adelle and showing her drool. 🙂
That's one of the best of thing with Dollhouse.

Topher finding out about Miss Lonelyhearts is the best and funniest part of the epiosde.
Think Topher has been source of the best moments in all episodes. Great character and Kranz does a great job.

The bad part was the whole soldier thing. That's was just silly.
It might have worked as a longer storyline. With an opportunity to flesh out the story better. Now it just felt stupid.
Like Taake said, the end with Echo's override was just blah...

The Attic
A classic episode, one that I remember from my first, and only, earlier watch.
Usually I'm not a big fan of strange dream episodes but here it works and it is some scary nightmares.

What I did not remember was the plot twist at the end, showing it was Adelle's plan all along.
Thought it was nicely done. Good the see the gang together planning to fight.
And the whole build up with Victor killing Sierra was really emotional.

Not sure either why the need to bring out Caroline for the final fight though...

Overall I feel that the episode is a great start to the finale episodes. If it wasn't for this re-watch thing I would've been all over the next episode already. 🙂

So I can do 3 episodes next week. Looking forward to it.

/SK

 

[Taake]

They need Caroline because she met the other Rossum leader, Clyde's partner, and is the only one supposedly who knows who he is, right?

 

[thetopher]

Stop-Loss:

Lots of good stuff in this episode, but for me, most of it has little to do with the main Victor/Anthony plot, which just seems overly rushed.
We really needed more build-up to what Rossum and it's various departments are doing for me to buy that they suddenly have an army at their disposal.

Drunk Adele is both fun to watch, but also sad. She's heartbroken but in denial. Lonely and cynical. But I really enjoyed all her conversations with Boyd (I also noticed how pointedly he was pushing her) and the face-off between her and Echo was one of my favourite bits.

It was great to see Echo as a fully realised character her, getting a chance to be take-charge investigator and kick-ass super-soldier.
As a side-note there was something about her 'Private Echo' outfit I just found really attractive. Maybe I have a thing for uniforms. 😀

Some of the fight scenes here are really good, both Anthony in his hotel suite and Echo vs. an army- it was all fun to watch.

The Tony/Pria romance was sweet...but again felt a little rushed. I guess they just click on some level. I didn't find it unbeleivable or anything but it would've been nice for them to have a little more build-up.
Then again they did the best with the time they had.

The ending was chilling. Icy Adele is so damn scary and I remember being really worried by that cliffhanger at the end...but it did lead into one of my favourite episodes of S2....

The Attic:

I have a weakness for surreal dream/nightmare episodes so I like this episode quite a bit.
Not only do we get some really dark/weird dream imagery but we get great character moments, some good surreal comedy and some real plot development. And none of it feels rushed or forced- and we get a great twist ending.

It's nice that in Echo's fantasy escape that both Anthony and Pria get to help out, reminds me a little bit of Angel's 'perfect happiness scenario' dream. Until, y'know, all the death and stuff.
I really bought Adele's cold bitch routine all the way through the episode- I guess it was her way of sounding everybody else out, seeing if they were ready to go all in to defy Rossum.
I enjoyed her conversations with both Topher and Boyd and they both seemed really shook up afterwards. I can only presume that one of them was faking...

Yay, Mr. Dominic! A triumphant return, I really miss his no-nonense reaction to pretty much things. Plus, him chasing down Arcane is really badass. 🙂

Anthony's nightmare makes total sense (the unwinable war) and Pria's is just creepy. Zombie-Nolan is even worse than actual Nolan. Yeek.

And...yeah, I feel slightly bad for Paul have his brain rescrambled by Topher, but I wouldn't say that I've missed his presence these past episodes.

Arcane/Clyde's scheme to destroy Rossum's mainframe makes a cold sort of sense, but I prefer Dominic's plan to 'awaken' them instead. Harder but also perhaps more humane?
I'm not sure but it feels like a better way.

The ending, with Adele revealed to be hatching a scheme all along was nice, although I agree that the line about Caroline 'it's time to win her war.' made me roll my eyes a little.
I don't really care about Caroline, these last episodes I've been rooting for Echo, with her now fully awakened, confident and strong enough to take down Rossum. It's her war more than Caroline's because Echo has been fighting the whole time, coming from nothing to self-awaeness, going through hell in the process, whereas Caroline gave up and sacrificed who she was when things got tough.
Screw her, Echo doesn't owe her a damn thing.

That little bump aside this is a great set-up for a strong finish to the Season.
And I'm all for watching the last three next week- just as long as we have two seperate threads to post thoughts/comments. 🙂

 

[Blaze]

Stop-Loss

Interestingly, this is the episode I remember the most of s2, which is somewhat odd because it's not one of my favorite episode of s2. I just think the ep was a bit slow to get started, the ending was phenomenal though. Phenomenal and really scary.

Adelle has officially gone off the deep end. I can't decide whether I should hate her or feel bad for her.

Again, I think this series was a bit hurt by not having more seasons. I agree with everyone that we needed more built up. I still feel like there's so many things to explore and not enough time to do so. I also blame Fox a bit because we could have jumped into the good stuff much earlier had they not forced Joss to go for the route we saw in s1. 100% I think that's why viewings were also low (amongst other reasons) because if someone saw the episodes were seeing now from the get go, I think this series would have been popular.

Also, what happened to Echo's headache? Are we to assume she's getting treatments for them?

@Fuffy Baith, I was wondering how Echo opened the pod so easily too! Also, I might be wrong but I thought by then Adelle knew what Echo was, so Echo had nothing to hide. Why Adelle didn't do anything about it, I'm no too sure. Especially with the Adelle we're seeing now.

 

[Taake]

Adelle has officially gone off the deep end. I can't decide whether I should hate her or feel bad for her.

I love this comment because it reminds me how torn I was first time around (obviously knowing what's to come this time I wasn't as affected) because I really didn't know whether to hate Adelle or not. I credit that to Olivia Williams being a brilliant actress being able to sell sympathethic as well as incredibly scary Adelle so well.

Huh, interesting point about the headaches. I didn't even think about that. I suppose they just didn't have time for it anymore?

 

[Blaze]

The Attic

I can't be the only one that was expecting the cheese man to show up randomly right 😛

Oh this was a good one. Very reminiscent of the Matrix. Me favorite episode of the season so far. Seriously, when I watch this I can't help but wonder how this series was unsuccessful. You watch this, and it's like watching a dam movie, not only that but it's an idea that I haven't seen done like this before.

Some general thoughts. Mr Dominic! So happy that he is back. Clyde: "That was in 1993", Mr Dominic: Head tilt "ahh". That was just the best. Clyde, meet the original Topher! Seriously where does Rossum find all those geniuses? I got the chill when Clyde said "This is the shape of things to come".

sakheifaqe...I did not remember that ending. Holy shit it broke my brain I think. It still confuses me a bit why Adele would go to such length to fool everyone. Why was she acting so crazy if she had things under control? And why send Prya and Tony to the attic too? Did Echo ask for them? Did she do it so that people wouldn't get suspicious?

Can't say I'm excited for Caroline to be back though. I kind of dislike her a lot. Echo, now I love Echo. And Eliza is so good as Echo. Let's not bring back Caroline.

How did Adele find out about Nolan? Speaking of Nolan, Priya's nightmare was super creepy.

Not sure how she found out, but didn't they hinted at her knowing right at the end of the episode where it happened? I already can't remember lol But seeing as she has GPS on her actives, it wouldn't surprise me if she fallows some of the personnel too.

So Clyde is the original Topher and Rossum has been working on this since '93. So why does Echo just assume it was Caroline? Also why would they let Caroline in? What is so special about Caroline? Why is this Caroline's war? Caroline to me just doesn't make any sense. I just don't care about her.

The way I took it. In the different flashbacks, seems like Caroline broke into Rossum (with Bennett?) and got caught, then became a doll. In s1 we only see the animal activist stuff, but I'm sure there's more to it. Sadly, I can't recall if this is solved this season or left opened. Echo probably just put two and two together from the information she gathered when she met Caroline. My question is why wouldn't the dollhouse erase those specific memories from Caroline for good measure, unless they actually don't know that she knows, in which case how Echo figured it out is beyond me. Don't get either why this is Caroline's war. To me Caroline is just a bratt who wanted to stir shit up with no proofs. She just hit the jackpot by being right, but she was not doing it for the right reasons.

I really bought Adele's cold bitch routine all the way through the episode- I guess it was her way of sounding everybody else out, seeing if they were ready to go all in to defy Rossum.

Good point, hadn't really thought about that.

 

[Fuffy Baith]

I can't be the only one that was expecting the cheese man to show up randomly right 😛

Ha! That would have been awesome! lol

Not sure how she found out, but didn't they hinted at her knowing right at the end of the episode where it happened? I already can't remember lol But seeing as she has GPS on her actives, it wouldn't surprise me if she fallows some of the personnel too.

They hinted at it, but it was Boyd telling her. I guess since it's Tophers fault for giving Priya her original identity back that he was involved as well.

The way I took it. In the different flashbacks, seems like Caroline broke into Rossum (with Bennett?) and got caught, then became a doll. In s1 we only see the animal activist stuff, but I'm sure there's more to it. Sadly, I can't recall if this is solved this season or left opened. Echo probably just put two and two together from the information she gathered when she met Caroline. My question is why wouldn't the dollhouse erase those specific memories from Caroline for good measure, unless they actually don't know that she knows, in which case how Echo figured it out is beyond me. Don't get either why this is Caroline's war. To me Caroline is just a bratt who wanted to stir shit up with no proofs. She just hit the jackpot by being right, but she was not doing it for the right reasons.

I remember where it goes and some of this is answered. It's just too late in the show, because I don't care about Caroline and her motives. It does seem like she is just doing it as a challenge to bring down this big company rather than for the morals reasons. Still why does Echo assume its Caroline. Other than, of course it's going to be Caroline.

 

[Blaze]

I remember where it goes and some of this is answered. It's just too late in the show, because I don't care about Caroline and her motives. It does seem like she is just doing it as a challenge to bring down this big company rather than for the morals reasons. Still why does Echo assume its Caroline. Other than, of course it's going to be Caroline.

I agree, it does seems a bit odd. I guess it really was just a lucky guess. Considering the show always throws in our face how Caroline and Echo are special, Echo noticed too and decided that if something was up, she/Caroline must be involved lol.