Dollhouse Re-watch (s2): "Vows" & "Instinct"

[Taake]

episode discussion
"Vows" (1) & "Instinct" (2)
​

Hey guys, I'm posting this a day early because I'll be busy most of the day tomorrow and didn't wanna keep you waiting. So here goes... (I'm so excited for season 2!!!)

"Vows":
Heck of an opening if you ask me! It almost made me dizzy... so much going on! (in a good way) 🙂
I'm going to divide my thoughts into topics so it's easier to follow;

Okay, the Echo engagement with Martin Klar (love the actor and thought he was brilliant as Klar - "This is becoming surreal..."). I have to agree with Boyd that it's a bit sick, I mean - I know Klar is a criminal but still... it also makes me wonder for how long this engagement has been going? I mean... it must be pretty comprehensive considering that Martin's and Roma's relationship had gone so far as marriage... suggesting they must have spent a lot of time together. That's a valuable asset (Echo) being occupied for extensive amounts of time.

Saunders and Boyd. I like them together so much it kind of breaks my heart. Considering.
That said - what are Boyd's motivations for giving Saunders that 'excuses' speech - is he trying to push her to see if she'll evolve?

Brief moment of lol - Paul and Boyd staring each other down - Seriously those two are some very tall men!

Adelle love; the haircut is great and she is sassy/cold/warm all in one brilliance as usual. Touching Viktor's face is a very interesting moment. Also her conversation with Paul - "I'm not asking you to handle me."

Paul Ballard: You're working an angle?
Adelle DeWitt: With the exception of the very special and the comatose, have you ever met someone who wasn't? ​

Topher; has he always slept there? Sad... so very sad. His moment with Saunders defies comments almost it's so intense. Love that whole scene.

Paul and Echo; you know... I get what Joss meant when he said that Paul is the character they ended up compromising the most. I think this episode is a perfect representation of that.
Him working with Echo, being 'the client', to start... even if he's doing it for a good cause he is using her. Then becoming her handler. Now that is just so wrong. Adelle already commented on his "extreme devotion to Echo", and while it can be said that he wants to save her it can not be denied that he also has romantic/sexual interest in her as well, which makes him being her handler superemely creepy and wrong which Paul no doubt is aware of.

But at this point what is he to do? He kind of has to go along with the company line, he's in the belly of the beast, he needs to work from with in because the option would no doubt be death. He has used up his chances with the DH, they won't trifle with Mellie's or Lubov's anymore should he continue his old ways. I get that he needs to work from within. It is still super creepy and wrong though. *shudders*


"Instinct"
Now we can talk about wrong... I don't really like the episode but I love the fact that I feel that the message is clear - there are certain things you shouldn't mess with. E.g. the maternal instinct.

I love Eliza's acting when they take her baby away. It's heartwrenching and every time I watch the episode I feel tears come to my eyes because her pain is so believable.

Madeline/November: I've said it before and I'll say it again - why WHY can't they dress her like a normal person? Is it because she's 'bigger'? I don't get it. Here they're dressing her like some kind of 50's housewife (that blue suit with the blouse... come on! And the dress when Adelle visits - who'd wear that around the house?) Also, I know she has money now but why does she seem obnoxious and snotty? (With Adelle, not later with Paul) that attitude doesn't come across as her having a problem with the Dollhouse it just seems like she's a really unpleasant person.

Also side note - does the Dollhouse provide clothes for the employees? 😉 There's a distinct change in Paul's closet. Suddenly he's quite the snappy dresser - purple shirts and leather coats - and I can't help but feel that it feels incongruous with the Paul Ballard we got to know in season 1.

Favorite line:
Paul Ballard:I think we're looking at a genius.
Topher Brink: I'm not as comfy with you saying that as I thought I'd be​

Trivia: the guy who plays Echo/Emily's husband also played Eliza Dushku's love interest/professor in the first episode of Tru Calling (and SMG's lover in Ringer)

 

[Blaze]

I'm so ashamed, I actually completely forgot to watch! I'm watching this weekend, promise! So excited to start s2 😀

 

[Taake]

I'm so ashamed, I actually completely forgot to watch! I'm watching this weekend, promise! So excited to start s2 😀

Yes! Not only me who does this 🙂

Can't wait to hear your thoughts. I'm very excited for season 2 because I can't remember it as well as I did season 1. I think I've actually only seen it once before so I'm sure there'll be many things I've forgotten about.

 

[thetopher]

I'm going to watch Dollhouse at the weekend as well, I didn't forget though 🙂p)- Tomorrow I'm starting on S2 of Buffy instead!

My niece is so stoked for this, she's been chatting away about nothing since she got back on Monday. 🙂

 

[Fuffy Baith]

Yea it's been a busy week, but I managed to watch 'Vows'. I just started my online class so that's taking up some time. I don't work this weekend (thankfully) so I'll watch 'Instinct' then. Lots to say on 'Vows' so forgive the long post.

'Vows'
First off, I don't like the new credit sequence. It's just a bunch of clips from Echo's engagements. At least there were cool transitions in the first season, they really should have added in the supporting cast.

• Is that were Topher sleeps and lives? Does he ever leave the Dollhouse? Poor Topher 🙁
• Sierra telling Ivy she doesn't like Orientals was funny, and then she hits on her. lol
• What does the Jonas Brothers have to do with engagements? Is the implication that they are Dolls?

Dr. Saunders messing with Topher, is funny but she's also really creepy. Her saying she want's to keep her scars because she doesn't want to go back to being a doll was sad. Her description of Topher as a sociopath in a sweater vest was funny. Amy Acker is great, like always, in the scene where she pretends to seduce Topher. What a great scene. Him saying she doesn't know him and that she chose to hate him. Poor Whiskey 🙁 It's a great scene that makes Topher more relatable I think, or at least we get to see more or a humanizing side to him.

So when I first watched this I had no idea Jamie Bamber was British cause his american accent on BSG is just great. On the flip side I absolutely thought Alexis was British and that he was doing an american accent here(and on HIMYM). His normal speaking voice, to me, just sounds like a British person doing an accent. I think it's funny. Anyways accents aside, it's great to see these two show up. Bamber did a good job playing a romantic villain. I like when he says 'I'm starting to think she's not taking this seriously' that was funny.

Oh I like Adele bringing up Mellie to Paul and questioning why he chose her to be released. I liked her saying that he couldn't have her around when he's crushing on Echo or something like that. She admits that she's curious and wants to study Echo.

So even though Paul hates the Dollhouse and everything they do, he chooses to be a client to do FBI work. It makes sense to use dolls like this and I think it shows that Paul really does care about justice and being an agent or whatever but it does make him a hypocrite.

Why does Echo get flashbacks of Whiskey as Dr. Saunders checks her...plumbing? That just seemed like odd timing to me.
It's always some sort of hit to the head that causes Echo to remember stuff. Does this only happen to Echo? Seems like it's a flaw, given that actives go on high risks missions where they could get hit in the head at any time.

So the end scene with Echo and Paul was great for setting up the tone of the rest of the season. I'm really excited to watch this season, I remember most of what happens but the last few episodes are a bit fuzzy. I'm curious to see what I will notice this time around and what stands out.

it also makes me wonder for how long this engagement has been going? I mean... it must be pretty comprehensive considering that Martin's and Roma's relationship had gone so far as marriage... suggesting they must have spent a lot of time together. That's a valuable asset (Echo) being occupied for extensive amounts of time.

I was wondering that too. And how is Paul paying for this? I got the sense that it had been like 3 or 4 months but maybe longer. Some people get married quick.

Him working with Echo, being 'the client', to start... even if he's doing it for a good cause he is using her. Then becoming her handler. Now that is just so wrong. Adelle already commented on his "extreme devotion to Echo", and while it can be said that he wants to save her it can not be denied that he also has romantic/sexual interest in her as well, which makes him being her handler superemely creepy and wrong which Paul no doubt is aware of.

Completely agree. None of this is helping his character to me. I guess from his perspective he can keep an eye on her and maybe use this opportunity to get more info about the Dollhouse. I just don't like his attraction to Echo. It's not like he knows her or anything, he's never really met Caroline and Echo is like a child in doll state or another person when imprinted. So is it just a physical attraction? Which is understandable cuz Eliza is gorgeous but it feels like more than that, and that kind of bothers me.

 

[Taake]

Haha, also love the "I'm starting to think she's not taking this seriously"
And I think Echo flashes back to Whiskey during the "plumbing check" a) to show that she's slipping in and out of memories of different personas she's been and B) because she and Whiskey no doing had sex during that engagement.

Also, wow Eliza is even more stunning this season. I mean she's always been gorgeous but here I find it hard to focus sometimes because she's so pretty 🙂

 

[Fuffy Baith]

Haha, also love the "I'm starting to think she's not taking this seriously"
And I think Echo flashes back to Whiskey during the "plumbing check" a) to show that she's slipping in and out of memories of different personas she's been and B) because she and Whiskey no doing had sex during that engagement.

Also, wow Eliza is even more stunning this season. I mean she's always been gorgeous but here I find it hard to focus sometimes because she's so pretty 🙂

You think they had sex during that engagement? Are the dolls suppose to be sleeping together? I just assume they were on the same mission and were up to something, like there was a plan. But that would explain why it happened during the check up as opposed to any other time she runs into Dr. Saunders.

Are you talking about the wedding dress? That was super adorable. It's funny, cuz I do the same thing.Sometimes I'm like wow she looks super hot, not just in this but in everything she does, especially s7 Buffy/s4Angel. And it's a little distracting. It's like really Eliza? How do you look amazing all the time. lol.

 

[Taake]

You think they had sex during that engagement? Are the dolls suppose to be sleeping together? I just assume they were on the same mission and were up to something, like there was a plan. But that would explain why it happened during the check up as opposed to any other time she runs into Dr. Saunders.

Well I would imagine if a client hired them for some kind of lesbian fantasy thing they would.
I mean, if they (the Dollhouse) approved "tempura Joe" the lonely soul who wanted to be dipped and rolled in stuff then I think some girl on girl (or rather doll on doll) action is pretty standard stuff actually. 🙂

 

[sk]

So, another season. 🙂

"Vows"
Favorite parts was the opening and the bits with Topher and Dr. Saunders.
Saunders being extremly creepy though...

The main story with Echo working undercover was good, not spectacular, but it withheld interest.

Can't say thay I understand Ballard.
After all the talk in season 1. How can he do what he does now?

"Instinct"
A very average episode imho.
Don't have much to say about it actually. Spent most of the episode trying to remember where I had seen the husband before. lol
Topher's and Ballard's talk in the beginning was great though. 🙂

Surprised that they leave actives still knowing about the Dollhouse.
Seems like a big security risk. Or is Mellie a special case with the early release and all that?

/SK

 

[Taake]

Can't say thay I understand Ballard.
After all the talk in season 1. How can he do what he does now?

Surprised that they leave actives still knowing about the Dollhouse.
Seems like a big security risk. Or is Mellie a special case with the early release and all that?

/SK

Agree on both counts.
I also wonder about that former Active bit. I mean, I suppose they have some kind of ironclad contract that forbids them to speak of it... but really, nothing is ever ironclad and people will talk. Say Madeline - doesn't she have family? Friends? People who wonder where she has been and where she's now getting all of her money from? Is there a Dollhouse class that you have to take to prepare you for those? 😉 It seems like a pretty big leap of trust to allow former Dolls to walk about in the world as they please.

(The diagnostics they're brought in for seem a bit sinister though...)

 

[Blaze]

Aright, so I watched the first episode. Good opener in my opinion.

I like when at first Boyd says that Echos engagement is really twisted and you think the twist is that a guy hired her to marry him. Turns out the twist is that Paul is the client. I agree, I really don't like the creepy relationship between Paul and Echo.

Whiskey/Dr. Saunders was awesome this episode, Amy Acker is an excellent actress, much underrated in my opinion. That whole exchange between her and Topher had be on my toes. It was heartbreaking.

It was good seeing Alexis Denisof. I'm excited to see how things play out.

Eliza was really good for the second half of the episode. I enjoyed her acting.

And as much as it was really creepy, I wouldn't have minded seeing Eliza and Amy make out lol these are two seriously good looking women.

 

[Fuffy Baith]

'Instinct'
Ok, so I still think the breast feeding thing was a little creepy. I like that they imprint Sierra to be her friend. Eliza baby talking was adorable! She did a great job in this episode. I'm just curious as to how long this guy thought he could do this. It can't be permanent so what was he going to do?

So Perrin's informant was Mr. Dominic? That was a nice dropped line. I'll talk more about Senator Perrin later, but what are his motives for bringing down Rossum? Right now it feels similar to Paul Ballard in S1.

Yea I agree about Madeline. She's a bitca. Am I suppose to believe this is the same woman who was crying over losing her baby in 'Needs'? I guess they really did take away the pain. And yea idk why she dresses like that, it's terrible. Her reaction to the situation at the Dollhouse and what Paul tell's her happened I think will come into play later. Also, it's a nice reminder that Paul really had feelings for Mellie, but it would feel more powerful if he wasn't into Echo.

I'm starting to think that Adele sends Echo out on these weird engagements to test her response to each situation. Because this does not seem like the type of engagement you send your glitching active out on, since it involves a baby. She puts a lot faith in Topher abilities and in Echo to maintain control of the situation.
So the guy does a good job pretending to be a good husband, why wasn't he doing that before?

Totally forgot about Echo punching Topher. Paul brings up a good point in that Topher's so obsessed with pushing the boundaries that he doesn't think things through. It reminds me of the conversation in Jurassic Park, where Malcom says they are so concerned about seeing if they could do things and not thinking about whether they should.
I really didn't like holding the knife next to the baby.
Another ending with Paul and Echo. I liked the first one, wasn't sure about this one. I did like Paul offering to have Topher make it all go away. But Echo's whole 'awake' thing. Idk.

Sorry for the long post. There's a lot of stuff going on this season, which means there's more to talk about and discuss. I like that.

Spent most of the episode trying to remember where I had seen the husband before. lol
Topher's and Ballard's talk in the beginning was great though. 🙂/SK

Did not like that guy's character on Tru Calling, and I didn't like him in the first half of Ringer, but I thought he was good here.
The opening conversation with Topher and Paul was interesting. Topher is so proud of what he has done and yet a dick to Paul saying things like 'leave the tech to the gown ups'. It's nice that Paul is trying to understand what it all means and what the purpose of the Dollhouse is, like he was told in season one to do. I think he's learning that there is a lot more to the Dollhouse than he thought.

doesn't she have family? Friends? People who wonder where she has been and where she's now getting all of her money from?
(The diagnostics they're brought in for seem a bit sinister though...)

I did like the idea of the diagnostic test. I think it makes sense for two reasons. First, since they do mess with your brain, they want to make sure that everything is ok and if I were a former active I would want to make sure they haven't done any permanent damage. Or if these people start to show signs of remembering their imprints, like Echo. The other is like Madeline says, they want to still keep an eye on you. No one ever really leaves the Dollhouse. And yea it doesn't make sense to have these people running around with all that money knowing about the Dollhouse. And what do they tell their friends and family they were doing for 5 years?

Whiskey/Dr. Saunders was awesome this episode, Amy Acker is an excellent actress, much underrated in my opinion. That whole exchange between her and Topher had be on my toes. It was heartbreaking.

Totally agree!

 

[thetopher]

Yay, Season 2! 🙂

Vows:
A solid opening that really doesn't stop to take a breath. There's so much going on here without even so much as a previously on last season!
Anyone notice when Echo said 'with my life' it's with this slightly dispirited tone, with an edge of resignation? Or maybe that just me.

Man, how long must this engagement have been? Months at least. I wouldn't be surprised if this was the only assignment Echo's been on since the end of the last series.

Love Jamie Bamber- in real life he has quite a strong London accent, so his 'upper class Brit' is put on to some extent- but the villains gotta have one! 🙂
Heh, Topher said 'Frenemy' 🙂 His conversation with Ballard was great.

-Topher sleeps in the server room? Is it nice and cosy? This is kinda sad, but not surprising.

-i'm still creeped out by Ballard's border-line obsession with Echo. When its cutting back from her 'wedding night' to Ballard lying restless, doing press-ups and stuff...I got uncomfortable. I guess I was meant to feel sorry for him? I was actually skeeved out. 🙁

-Poor disturbed Dr. Saunders- trying to keep herself sane by tormenting the man who she hates but also created her. I get that. 🙁
-The conversation between Boyd and Saunders was interesting, given what we come to learn. Maybe he was trying to get close to her, drive her away from the Dollhouse, or getting her to 'evolve' like the rest.

'...Miss Eleanor Penn.' Uh-oh. And she almost talked her way out of that one. Also Eliza does righteous anger really well.

The rest of it- Ballard's plan, was really quite a good climax to the episode. Some nice action. A solid start to the season.

Also all of that bearing in mind that Joss had a smaller budget to work with for S2, which, If I'm honest, I don't really notice.

Why does Echo get flashbacks of Whiskey as Dr. Saunders checks her...plumbing? That just seemed like odd timing to me.

Man, I'm such a perv, 'cause as soon as I saw their flashback, with the come hither looks my mind went straight to 'Well, I guess they've been intimate on assignment', and well, because of their...respective positions during the exam. 😳
C'mon It's Eliza and Amy! I'm just a flawed human male...

I'm sure doll on doll fantasy's are very popular, if quite expensive.

What does the Jonas Brothers have to do with engagements? Is the implication that they are Dolls?

The inference I think was that the Jonas Bros would want a Doll for their... discreet activities. Again, I've got a dirty mind. 😀

Instincts:

Sigh, I'm in two minds on the one. I really don't like a lot of it.
It's twisted and uncomfortable- the violation of Motherhood and all that- I find it disturbing and not so enjoyable to watch. Plus the fact that we spend a lot of the episode knowing a lot more than Echo's imprint does.

It does work well as a Kafka-esque nightmare from her POV though- She knows the truth, that she's Jack's mother, but everybody else is against her. From that perspective its also deeply chilling.
Eliza is so good here, she's so believable its actually quite heart rendering. 🙁

Quickly coming to love the Topher/Ballard interactions. 'It's so cute that you're trying.' 😀 I also like that Ballard is actually trying to understand the technology of the Dollhouse- information is power.

What is it with Madeline's fashion sense? Is it 1980's 'Dallas?' No! Just...dress better, okay. 🙄

The rest of it was well-acted but drawn-out too much imo.
Although I did enjoy the contrast between Echo punching out Topher and then her child-like attempts to drive the car. 'Go now.' Aw...

But the two endings were great. Echo and the Father talking, as he realised the horror of what he'd put her through, was great. It's good that he was honest with her, and apologised to her.

The other important conversation was between Echo and Ballard...and here I think Ballard begins to care for Echo, not just Caroline. When she revels to him that she not just remembers but feels those memories...ouch. I really felt for her.
And he says that he could try and help her, make it easier for her...then I began to warm to him- it's about time. 😉

And Echo's declaration that it was better to feel anything, the pain or whatever than to still be asleep, was really well done, I got chills.🙂

So a good start and ending but I'm not a fan of the subject matter. If my memory serves the next couple of episodes are awesome.

 

[Fuffy Baith]

-i'm still creeped out by Ballard's border-line obsession with Echo. When its cutting back from her 'wedding night' to Ballard lying restless, doing press-ups and stuff...I got uncomfortable. I guess I was meant to feel sorry for him? I was actually skeeved out. 🙁

Yes, I could have done without the back and forth shots. Although I did like when Echo(Roma, whoever she was pretending to be) calls him out the next day. "Is this about the sex?" That was funny.

Man, I'm such a perv, 'cause as soon as I saw their flashback, with the come hither looks my mind went straight to 'Well, I guess they've been intimate on assignment', and well, because of their...respective positions during the exam. 😳
C'mon It's Eliza and Amy! I'm just a flawed human male...

I'm sure doll on doll fantasy's are very popular, if quite expensive.

Your not the only one @Taake thought the same thing. I guess I just didn't get that from the brief flashback, but it would explain why it happens during the exam.

The inference I think was that the Jonas Bros would want a Doll for their... discreet activities. Again, I've got a dirty mind. 😀

That seems more likely. Those dirty Jonas bros. Anyone see the recent pics of Nick Jonas posing in his underwear. He sure grew up. lol 😉 I can be dirty too.

What is it with Madeline's fashion sense? Is it 1980's 'Dallas?' No! Just...dress better, okay. 🙄

I think we all agree about this.

But the two endings were great. Echo and the Father talking, as he realized the horror of what he'd put her through, was great. It's good that he was honest with her, and apologized to her.

Yea I forgot about that, but I do like that he talks to her kind of like Ballard does. Like she a person who knows what happens to her, not just like an unaware child in the Dollhouse. It was a nice touch.

 

[Blaze]

So I just finished up Instinct. I actually really enjoyed this episode. I love the whole "experiment gone wrong" feel to it. But of course as a scientist I get a bit of a kick out of that. I love how you don't f*** with maternal instinct, the message was very clear. And it's one I can agree with, also goes to show that the dolls aren't full proof. Or maybe it was just Echo and how she's different. Either way, there's a limit to what they can do.

I was still pretty cool how Topher was able to make bodily function change just from altering brain function, that was neat. Echo's "Mommy's home" was on point, so creepy. Did episode did good at making me feel bad for Echo and the dad.

Paul is finally slightly likable, I dig him as Echo's handler, even if he's still creepy. I'm happy they brought back Mellie.

Also, Alexis' role is exactly the Paul that could have been. I like him.

 

[Fuffy Baith]

Echo's "Mommy's home" was on point, so creepy.

I actually think that line fell a little flat for me. But I agree that the ending made me feel sad for Echo.

 

[MarlieTheSlayer]

I just rewatched Vows with my sister.
What an amazing episode!

I absolutely love the interactions between Dr. Saunders and Topher. This is why I love the series. Sure the engagements are fun and all. But it gets really interesting when they delve into the other actives and try to question our morals and the definitions of being human.

Joss did it again!

 

[Taake]

and try to question our morals and the definitions of being human

Love this, cause it's very true!