Dollhouse Spec

[Relic]

I was watching it again a few days ago, and I have a question to throw out there. Is Echo the 'oldest' -as in terms of programing- doll, aside from Alpha?

You know how they all sleep in little spoke like wheel things right? And you know that each wheel has five spokes or sleeping chambers? The flash back to echo and the rampage by alpha shows her in her sleeping room, surrounded by three bodies.

Assuming they are all 'sorted' to sleeping quarters alphabetically, and there were three bodies, not four, I assume the other missing doll from the roll call of five is Alpha. This would mean that Beta and Charlie and Delta were taken out during Alphas rampage, and (if seniority is based off alphabet, and the names are not gender assigned) Echo would be the oldest doll alive, other than Alpha.

Something that could be dumping cold water on this is if after a doll has been terminated, they are replaced. Have beta and Charlie and Delta been replaced? Alpha has not, though he has supposedly been terminated by a house merc/hunter team.

Just some wild speculation. maybe someone can shoot it down soon with Beta, Charlie, or Delta, still being around/replaced.

The reason why I'm curious about this, aside from just me being weird, is that the older Echo can be presumed to be, and the closer her entrance into the house is in comparison to when Alpha joined up, the more confident I feel with a guess that Alpha knew Echo....or better said what ever Alphas pre-doll name was, knew Caroline before they ever joined Dollhouse. (They could have joined together, or he referred her.)

 

[Friendly Lurker]

Amy cast for a new pilot - Buffy-Boards

What do you guys think about that? I'm a bit worried. 🙁

 

[definition of insane]

Amy cast for a new pilot - Buffy-Boards

What do you guys think about that? I'm a bit worried. 🙁

You did notice in the credits though, that she's only a guest star on Dollhouse, right? I don't think they'd get rid of Saunders, I'm guessing we probably see her a little bit less than we do now.

I still think neighbour is a doll, and possibly a malfunctioning one as well (let's face it, she's not really getting anywhere with Ballard and I would think that's what her role would be). But in such a low risk position, no-one's really noticed.

Like I said in the discussion thread I think that putting the dolls in "The Attic" just means they're looking at killing her off and bringing in a new Echo. Either you get killed in action or you get sent to the Attic, so either way, the Dolls don't get their own life back after 5 years.

I'm also starting to think that Caroline's personality is what makes Echo so "special", while she might not remember any of it, it's quite possible that her thought process just might be the same, which is why she was in trouble and had to go to the Dollhouse to begin with.... "I just wanted to make a difference, just like she said" but went about it in such a way that you wouldn't maybe go? And then Echo also had an inherent thought process which means that while she gets the job done, she doesn't do it in the way that is expected.

Random musing for now anyway.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I couldn't be arsed to read over everything but here is my suspicion (or at least how I would play it out). First, I should say I am no fan of the series; I find it to be rather trite and contrived (the last episode Stage Fright, was no exception, with an ending straight from an afterschool special) that being said...

I think everyone knows that Alpha is not the "bad guy" that the Dollhouse itself is the 'bad guy.' With that in mind, and taking into account the Victordoll, the Dollhouse poises itself for a Manchurian candidate type of thing. Grab a powerful senator, wipe their mind and control them much as they control the Victordoll. That is where it should be taken. The Dollhouse operating (especially as its the same set almost) as a Wolfram & Hart type thing- the power behind the power.

In the episode Target, it was established that Alpha killed the man in the truck, but why? Could it simply be he was going there to protect Echo? One assumes that Alpha would not need to test Echo any further as he left her alive once already.

So far the series has proven very serialized and not diverged off the typical genre points. If that course of action continues I would anticipate that before the series ends the FBI agent will get 'got' by the Dollhouse and his mind wiped, only to have Alpha 'save' him and serve as a mole in freeing the other Dolls.

There are moments were the series really shines, but 5 or 10 good minutes an episode does not make up for the other 40 which is rather prosaic.

What are the other Dolls missions like? Why don't they ever show them? It's Dollhouse, not the Echo show. Even when they bring in another Doll on a mission (episode I & III) it's just filler.

I have hopes but they are fleeting. It's just like Quantum Leap- without the humor or Alias- without the bite.

 

[Relic]

^^^^I'd assume Alpha knocked off the guy in the truck to tie up loose ends, I'm just very surprised he left the body....unless he's sending a message to the house and trying to provoke them. The henchman guy was bound and shot in both legs, hardly a threat to Echo. I don't think Alpha was there to 'protect' Echo. I think he orchestrated a plot to turn Echo, or begin her process of becoming self aware. I think he set up this whole engagement.

I think he expected the hunter to fail, and...well, if you do arse yourself into reading what others have written once already on this thread, you'll see where I'm going with this, as well as what others think, too.

I agree that the Dollhouse is big bad material, but Alpha is not good by my estimates. I think he wants to shut the house down, but he surely is not good in my eyes, not even on a gray scale of OK. Not yet anyway.

And even with some forgiveness and explanation, that good label would only go as far as a Giles who murders Ben, a guy that is willing to get dirty to do what needs done. Joss seems to be setting up his 'monster' with understandable goals and whatnots, but a questionable approach. looks like his writing on XMen really rubbed off on him.

The way Alpha kills....in a torturous manner...he just seems a far cry from good. there is a chance he was interrogating that guy in the van to find out what he knew...if anything...as far as threats to Echo go.

On the other hand, he could be just plain crazy psycho.

maybe both.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

^^^^I'd asssume Alpha nocked off the guy in the truck to tie up loose ends. He was bound and shot in both legs, hardly a threat to Echo. I don't think Alpha was there to protect Echo. I think he orchistrated the plot to turn Echo, or beginher process of becoming self aware. I think he expected the hunter to fail, and...well arse yourself into reading what others have written allready on this thread.

I am saying his arrival beforehand was to protect Echo, but Lennix (sorry, cant remember the character name) took care of the security on his own; he killed the man in the truck to remove one more hinderance.

I think though, with the way Alpha kills....in a torturous manner...he's a far cry from good.

But do we really know how Alpha kills? I mean, our perceptive is that of Lennix, we are only TOLD what happened. For all we know, the dolls could have gone after him and it was self defense.

Just saying, if Joss is being Joss, then I would not believe anything the Dollhouse said in regard to that matter.

 

[Relic]

We certainly have been led to the assumption of how Alpha kills, but short of the ending of ghosts were the naked guy is getting ready to mail the field agent a photo of Caroline surrounded by cut up bodies...and we don't even know this is Alpha for sure...we've never as viewers have even been able to place him in the same room as his alleged handiwork.

I still think it is him though, I'll be surprised if it isn't. (which is something I welcome with good TV.)

I don't doubt for a second Dollhouse lies to it's employees, though, true dat'.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

We certainly have been led to the assumption of how Alpha kills, but short of the ending of ghosts were the naked guy is getting ready to mail the field agent a photo of Caroline surrounded by cut up bodies...and we don't even know this is Alpha for sure...we've never as viewers have even been able to place him in the same room as his alleged handiwork.

Yes, we have been led to believe that, but how many times has Joss done that in the past? That's the only reason I am watching, hoping against hope there is much more that is not being told. You dont even know for certain that he killed the people at the end of Ghost, let alone, as you say, if it was actually him. It was assumed.

I remember Joss saying something about the first five episodes being treated as five pilots, or words to that effect, so maybe in a few weeks the show will pick up.

 

[Friendly Lurker]

FOX on Demand

I've been wondering about that clip for a while. Echo and Paul are together and he asks "Where did you hear about Dollhouse?". It seems to me like Echo is self-aware because it would be weird to ask that if she was denying all knowledge of it. They also seem to be in Paul's house since he puts the keys down on the counter.

Thoughts?

 

[definition of insane]

Ooooh.

Perhaps it's a fast forward? If it was, it totally blows my theory of Dolls don't actually get to leave after 5 years out of the water.

Or....it maybe that Ballard gets too close to finding outthe truth, so they send Echo back in as Caroline, to feed him a bunch of wrong information about the Dollhouse. Information wise, he couldn't find anything on her. Since he's definitely under surveillence, it wouldn't be hard to plant a Caroline that doesn't actually have any useful information on the Dollhouse.

 

[November]

Yeah after seeing that clip I thought maybe Echo had become self aware alot quicker than we thought she would and was now on the run from them. But the idea of putting Carolines personality back is another good one!

 

[Tsquared]

I've been pondering on what they do or have done to the family members of the Dolls. Surely they've had to have asked questions or report them missing to the authorities. Then that would all lead back to the supposed five-year-run.. after it's completed and they do re-implement the original personality, their main question would be.. where'd Ma and Pops go? From there, they could go all informant and reveal some small information of the DH, but then again I do not want to underestimate Plan B or Plan A for that matter... But if they've killed their family members and friends, would they alter their original personality's memory? Let it be known (cover story, of course) to prevent any backlash..

That's what I'm thinking, but that is if they do let them go.. I can also see the families being a few in a sea of thousands of reported missing cases. OKAY! *tire screech* I'm going to halt before I confuse myself.

What do you guys think?

 

[Skanky Vamp]

But if they've killed their family members

I think to some degree they would have to.. and make the doll essentially disappear so none look for them. Thats why I still say it was assumed that Alpha was the killer at the end of the pilot.. but, could just as easily been the Dollhouse covering their tracks.

I think after the five year run the (typical) Doll's mind goes mush and they are of no more use, they put them in the attic.. anyone read that old book Flowers in the Attic?

 

[Friendly Lurker]

The name of episode 13 is apparently going to be "Omega" so it sounds like Alpha might get his butt kicked!

 

[nerd4hire]

I speculate when we finally meet Alpha he's maybe going to turn out to be not such a bad guy. I suspect he's being used, or has been warped by an external evil. I also suspect he will turn out to have some sort of connection to Echo which will inspire sympathy in us for him.

 

[Randy Giles]

My theory is that Echo is going through the same thing as Alpha...I'm assuming in two or three seasons Echo will be actively working to try to bring down the Dollhouse, perhaps with Alpha. Although to keep the show's mission angle alive she'd probably be working undercover. Very excited to see what happens, hopefully the show lasts that long.

 

[Harley]

I don't think Caroline is/was her real name. If you look at it, Joss's main characters havent ever really had traditional names. Caroline is pretty traditional to me. That's why I assume she wasn't really herself when she "volunteered".

I don't think Alpha ever worked with the hunter from episode 2. If the person we saw that had "Caroline's" photo was actually Alpha, he seems a little too outside the box to just hire someone to go after her. I also think he is more interested in contacting Echo than hurting her. Maybe when he freaked, she did something to indicate that she rememberd who he was, so that's why he didn't hurt her. I also find it interesting that Topher was bloody but uninjured.

I also do not think the Russians know that Victor is an Active.

 

[definition of insane]

I was rewatching the other night with my net on down time (let's just not mention how 😉 ) and I'm thinking if Alpha (as we are led to believe) is the one that wiped Echo in "Grey Hour", then surely he has some capabilities to set up his own imprinting shop....and Richard from "The Target" could be a product of his works, since even in the DHverse, I still find it difficult to believe you can just hire a psycho.

I also don't think that the Dollhouse have killed off family members. Judging by Caroline's inital interview with DeWitt, I would think the Dollhouse pick certain individuals who "volunteer" because they have no better option. Otherwise, why would you? 5 years is a long time. If you felt as though you had people that cared for you on the outside, would you really give yourself up to an extended period of not remembering who they are?

I still stand by my whole 5 year contract doesn't mean 5 years....you either die in action, or you get sent to the attic (which I still think means you die anyway).

 

[Friendly Lurker]

Joss Whedon: Dollhouse Is about to Get "Stronger" and "Pretty Intense" - Today's News: Our Take | TVGuide.com

Calling his latest creation's first episodes mere "baby steps," Joss Whedon is getting the word out that from Episode 6 on, Fox's Dollhouse will be an extra-compelling place to visit.

In a note to reporters (or "Newsly Types," as he puts it) accompanying a DVD of "Man on the Street" (airing March 20) and "Needs" (April 3), Whedon says, "These two episodes represent a much stronger vision of what I consider the show to be."

Next week should be exciting then! I can't wait for the show to kick off properly. 😀

 

[Relic]

I just have this feeling that Alpha is a bad guy, as in not someone who will grow on us. From what i understand dollhouse is about putting the viewer in sort of an uncomfortable situation; I view Doll House as the true 'Big Bad' and Alpha is trying to punish/destroy it but he does evil things while completing that end. That the idea is to make us uncomfortable/uncertain of the approach for an otherwise noble goal....Not too much unlike Giles killing Ben to save Buffy/the world from Glory.

I'm wondering if Alpha did not pay a little visit to Catherine's family/friends after he went on a rampage and escaped. I think he may have went there to get photos and videos of her that her family would have and then for some reason went postal.

He may have even went 'postal' to draw attention to the family which may have filed a missing persons report or inquired what happened to their mother/child/college friend/ significant other, yet was concealed by the powers that be.

I don't think the house gets rid of the dolls families. If the house immediately knocked off the families of the missing people, would that not draw more attention to them then just letting the families be? It would require yet more cover up that deals with the social network of family vs. just an individual.

On the flip side to that, since I'm wildly speculating, maybe the house programs them as a nut jobs for their last mission and releases them on a wet work assignment against their own families once their stint as a doll is over to paint them as psychopaths and unreliable. I don't think this is the case though.

I do think Alpha went after people close to Caroline though. I'm just waiting for the FBI guy to play a role in uncovering it, finding the missing persons report that have been covered up, etc. etc.