Don't You Just Hate It...

[anyatara]

Okay, here's another one that gets to me; because of the music I like and the way I dress sometimes everyone calls me an 'emo' and the stereotype/cliche with that one is that I slit my wrists, which I really don't, I did one time, but that was a long time ago, that REALLY gets to me.

 

[Slayergal]

I hate how some people just assume that all people who work with race horses are druggies.

The sheriffs department in my hometown thinks that all the drugs that come in to the town are brought in and sold by people who work out at the horse track. That if there was no horse track all the drugs would go away. What they don't want to admit is probably more than half the residents in the town do some illegal drug or another and even manufacture and sell it to their neighbors. So even if the horse track shut down there would still be a lot drugs and drug users.

 

[Lou]

Randiann:

I'm very intrigued by the mascot theory. Please go on.
I'm a HUGE KC Chiefs fan and I never even thought of that being an issue. I have some Native American (granted, it's far back in my own blood line but there is some by marriage in my family) but that's never been anything I even thought of.
Maybe because I don't view all "razorbacks" or "bulldogs" as the vicious fighters they are portrayed as in mascot form. I don't ever draw the connection between the term "Chiefs" or "Braves" and any Native American of today or even any particular tribe or culture. It just seems obscure to me. In fact, if anything, it says to me that "Chiefs" are smart and brave and triumph. (Hence why no one calls their team the bunnies)
And where the term "Chinks" is derogatory, "Chief" while not pertaining to everyone of Native American heritage is seen (largly) as a sign of being respected.

On the other hand, my opinion doesn't count because I still kind of like the term "Indian" because it goes to show just how STUPID and arrogant the settlers here were!

 

[randiann]

Dlou, first I wanna say sorry for taking so long to reply.

The mascot issue is a HUGE issue in the Native American community. Being pigenholed into these images of a savage warrior who is out for blood is derrogatory. And if fact, "Chiefs" is not a term used for respect (unless you are actually addressing the Chief of a tribe) it's a term of mockery. I pretty much guarentee that if you went up to a Native American man whom you did not know and said something like "hey Chief how's it going" he is going to punch you in the face. While you see it as a sign of respect (although I don't know how you do) it is a term that has been misused for a long time. Look at this example from pop culture: In Shanghai Noon, when Jackie Chan goes to the town and he is still all painted up from his night spent with the Indians before, the bartender tells him (and I paraphrase) "hey Chief you are going to have to get your firewater somewhere else". He wasn't addressing him respectfully but mocking him for the way he was dressed and for the paint on his face.

Furthermore there are much more derrogatory terms such as "redskins" "braves" "warriors" "SAVAGES" (that's the one that I have a real issue with) and they all depict Native Americans as inhumane warriors. If you ask any Native American if they like a characature of their people being used as a mascot, they will tell you that it is EMBARRASSING and HUMILIATING to have people think that that is what Native Americans are really like. You wouldn't want a picture of someone of your race up there being made a mockery of. People wouldn't have a redneck as their mascot, barefoot and in coveralls with a big shotgun, or a picture of Aunt Jemima in the kitchen cooking her massa some supper now would they? Why then would someone want to be portrayed as a savage riding bareback on his horse with feathers in his hair and paint on his face, whooping and hollering and killing people? It's racist, pure and simple. And I am in no way a supporter or being PC. I generally tend to think that the world is too concerned with hurting people's feelings by saying the wrong thing, but you also have to draw the line somewhere. There is a difference between being racist and being human.

Some websites that help clarify why Native Americans have a problem with the mascot issue:
http://www.nativecircle.com/mascots.htm
A very compelling arguement, although perhaps a bit emotional.

http://www.aics.org/mascot/mascot.html
Another great reason why Native American mascots should not be used from American Indian Cultural Support with some really great links.

http://www.aimovement.org/ncrsm/
From AIM (American Indian Movement)

http://www.aistm.org/cartoons.htm
Has some cartoons showing how Native American mascots are not acceptable, one of which:

Also wanted to say that depending on who you are talking to, some find the term "Native American" to be more offensive than the term "Indian". I tend to use both terms interchangably, as do alot of people I know (although I have a problem with term "indigenous" for some reason that one really bothers me). Most people though prefer to be referred to by their tribal association if it is known instead of a generic blanket term like Indian.

 

[Vicariously]

hmmm exellent points by everyone.

Even more interesting is that sterotypes DO exist.

Randiann I have a question and I in no means mean to offend by asking. But why does the term "native american" offend people of your culture? I may be incorrect but I doubt people from Europe object to being called European? again I could be wrong.

I understand that people of your culture dont want to be painted in a negative light too with the whole mascot thing. But I can see what so many other say about a "Warrior" of any type being fierce and respected.

The same way a tiger is fierce or a night or a renegade. I really dont think that people are insuinating that the race is savage. But your post did enlighten me some.

furthermore alot of the terms you mentioned that are used often to describe a person of native american decent got me thinking about a derogative word that has been used to describe a person of African American decent and a question I have.

I mean absolutely no offense by this question but it has always puzzled me. That word I speak of is such a huge insult. so why then has it become acceptable for other people of that decent to use it to describe a "friend".

For example "Whats up my N*gga?"

I have always wondered why a word that is so offensive is used that way by many of the same people it offends. I have seen many a time the exchange of two individuals of African American decent using this "salutation" and those same individuals nearly beat down a caucasion male who used it in the exact same way. I understand getting offended if its used derogatory but as the same salutation? Could someone please enlighten me?

 

[Blondie Bear]

Some people think that if you (as a minority) use a word (that is usually derogatory of said minority) that it takes the punch out of it, or reclaims it, or something. I don't quite get it, myself. To quote Tina Fey from Mean Girls, "You girls have GOT to stop calling each other sluts and whores. It only makes it okay for the guys to call you sluts and whores." That's the way I look at it, anyway. And it seems wrong somehow to go around saying "I can use this word, but if you do, it makes you a dirty racist/chauvinist/some other type of evil person." But that's just my opinion.

And Randiann will have to tell you about the Native American stuff. I have no idea.

 

[Lou]

Well, as big a Kansas City fan as I am, I would never walk up to someone and CALL them Chief, that's insane. Then again, I also wouldn't wander up to someone at church and say, "Hey Father" just because they happen to be Catholic.
I was only saying that "Chiefs" as a mascot isn't exactly demeaning...ESPECIALLY if we can compare it to "Savages". I went to two highschools, the "Admirals" and the "Irish". Neither really depict much of anything. Who says Admirals are overly intimidating? I always pictured an old guy on a boat. Other than the apparent Rocket Launchers, Ireland doesn't exactly strike much fear in my heart. And, even then, I'm too far away to fear the rocket launchers!

Redskins, now that is worse. Braves...I'm not even entirely sure about yet. Savages, VERY BAD...although, like I mentioned in my PM, if there was a way to take away any racial meaning...would fit most High School Students QUITE nicely!

I (by me I mean mostly my family, because I'm such a mutt I really don't have a heritage) don't really find the term "Native American" as offensive as, say, "African American" or "Asian American". At least NATIVE means you're from here. It seems to me, that unless you ACTUALLY migrated from Asia or Africa...you're just an American and to add that extra little title feels like a way to take a little bit of that away. It just bugs me, and I'm not sure why.

I can see why it would be frustrating though!

Edit:

*Please note: I'm fully aware that my opinions on this matter mean squat. Perhaps it's because I'm just a giant mix of races and backgrounds that I don't really think of any as "mine" and thus aren't offended. I don't mean to make light of what offends people. That's offensive in itself. I just thought it was interesting that I've never seen that side of the coin.

 

[randiann]

Randiann I have a question and I in no means mean to offend by asking. But why does the term "native american" offend people of your culture? I may be incorrect but I doubt people from Europe object to being called European? again I could be wrong.

Many people, especially older people from my own personal experience, want to be known by their tribal affiliation. For example, if you met a Navajo man and asked him if he was Native American he may say "No, I'm Dene (their word for Navajo)". It's because it is such a blanket term that it offends some people I think. You are lumping in so many cultures into one term, for example you have the Navajo and Puebloan cultures in the southwest (think kokopellis and kachina dolls), you have all the different fishing based tribes in the northwest (totem poles), Plains tribes like the Sioux in the north and the Comanche in the south (teepees and buffalo hunting, trick riding on horses), Choctaw and Cherokee farmers who traditionally lived in what were basically big log houses and who play stickball, the Iroquois confederacy in the northeast; there is just such a diversity of people. And for some, to be lumped together with the same term that others use to describe your enemies is not the most flattering thing.

With the use of say, a warrior or a chief as a mascot, the problem isn't the name itself; it's the connotations that go along with it. It's the fact that they are portraying ALL Indians as being warriors and as these people that are still going around fighting everyone. People really believe that Indians still roam the plains like they did 200 years ago. They think that all Indians do is go to powwows and dance and smoke pot out of their peace pipe and say "how white man". And while the powwow is a big part of many tribal cultures, it's not everything. It's the fact that ALL tribal cultures are lumped together and mocked for the sake of a sports game when in fact there are over 500 tribes in the US alone and no two of them are the same.

Also, although I TOTALLY agree that 'savage' describes most high school students, when you pair that name with a picture of a bloodthirsty Injun ready to go on a war rampage, it's really demeaning.

And of course your opinion holds weight. Don't degrade yourself because you have a mixed heritage. Hell, I'm ALL mutt. I'm part Choctaw, Comanche, Seminole, Creek, and White Trash (as I like to lovingly refer to my Mother's side of the family, if you met them you'd realize how true that is). I'm more White than Indian to be honest with you (just barely though). But I've been raised as a Choctaw. On my Father's side, my Grandfather was heavily involved in tribal politics, my Grandmother (who is half Comanche) was adopted as a baby and raised by a Choctaw family, and some of our close friends of the family (they have been another set of grandparents to me, and my dad will say that after his father died that this man was practically his father) are all Choctaw. I was raised partially removed from the bulk of the tribe, but I always knew what my heritage was and that I should be proud to have ties with such a great tribe. I even speak a little of the language, although growing up I never knew that they were Choctaw words. I'm learning it now, and although I am nowhere near fluent it amazes me how much I did learn as a child. Anyway, I digress. My point is that you don't have to be Indian per se or identify with one certain tribe to appreciate and respect the cultures. And that is what this whole issue stems from is respect, or the lack thereof. If people would respect Native cultures instead of poking fun of them, there wouldn't be an issue. But the fact is that people make Indians into these cartooney misleading images, and it's just not right. Pure and simple.

One more thing about Native American stereotypes. I found this blog on Google showing how this (stupid) guy seems to think Native Americans are.
This can be found at Steve in a Speedo?! Gross!: November 2006

I ran the Turkey Day 5K in downtown Minneapolis. I decided that I needed to have fun with this run (there's not much that I don't have fun with), so I knew that a costume was in order. Steph was going to dress up as well, but she couldn't find a good costume (or she wussed out, I'm not sure). I didn't need no stinkin costumed partner - I'd do this all by myself if I had to. So I spent 15 bucks at Jo-Ann Fabrics, and turned myself into a Native American:I had a loin-cloth, a headdress with 7 feathers, and a chest piece with lots of feathers

And the picture with it:

Stereotypical anyone? Is that offensive to me? YEAH.

Image of a Native American Mascot from
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/magazine/08/17/indian.wars030402/index.html

And a short exert from the article :

(Billy) Mills (gold medal Olympic runner from 1964) is sitting in first class. A flight attendant -- the words steward and stewardess are frowned upon today -- checks on him every so often. The man is African-American, the preferred designation for his racial background; before that, society called him black or colored or Negro. The man is friendly, doing his job. Each time he addresses Mills, he calls him Chief. Mills doesn't know if the flight attendant realizes that he is Lakota. Maybe he calls everyone Chief. Maybe he means it as a compliment. Mills motions him over.

"I want to tell you something," Mills says. The man leans in. "I'm Native American, and you calling me Chief, it turns my stomach. It'd be very similar to somebody calling you Nigger."

The flight attendant looks at Mills. He says, "Calling you Chief doesn't bother me...Chief."

Fancy Shawl Dancer (It's the dance she's doing)
National Powwow Honors American Indian Cultural Traditions

Compare with traditional Choctaw dress:
http://www.oklachahta.org/Princess%20Contest%20Criteria.htm

See the difference?

By the way, for anyone who is curious, "Halito, chim chukma" translates to "hello, how are you?"

 

[Lou]

Well, basically, what I was saying is that just because I have weird blood lines and I'm not offended, doesn't mean I think my way is the right way.
I honestly don't even know WHAT tribe any of my anscestors belonged to. They are part of my birth mother's side and they don't speak to us. (She died right after I was born and for some reason, we've been treated like the plague.) I know there IS some, on my grandfather's side and about 4 or 5generations back a black man on my grandmother's side. And a bunch of French on that side. Then we have your basic "European" (who knows what that means) irish, and somewhere back there some sort of slavic.
And my step mother ALSO has Cherokee in her family, but I'm not really related to them, but they are the only actual Indian Family I have contact with. (Ah, to know where that 8th Grade heritage paper is!)
I just don't get offended.
I was just telling my friend today when she was FREAKING OUT about her wedding favors and what shoes she might wear and "what people would think" I told her that if she's honestly inviting people to her wedding who are going to GIVE A CRAP about wedding favors or her shoes, she probably shouldn't be inviting them.

I guess I just feel like if there are HONESTLY people out there who see the Chiefs or the Redskins logo and see drunken football fans in the parking lot and think that there are actual Indians out there smoking peace pipes and living in teepees putting on war paint....then they're not too bright and I don't really care about their thoughts.
There are people who wear CHEESE on their heads to Packer's games, I can't even imagine what THAT means!

Actually, I really do see it more as respect. Not the "Savages" and the term Redskins seems a bit weird, but I've heard my family use it just as a descriptive word like "black" or "white" so I can live with it. But, I don't notice the "war paint" part. Maybe I just choose to see the part where they're describing the race as strong, smart, and unstoppable.
IF my daughter were to dress up for school play, I'd most likely dress her like the "bad" pictures. Perhaps not war paint, but feathers and stuff. Of course, other than they tan well, BOTH of the kids look like they're straight from Hitler's view of perfection.

As for Savages, the FIRST high school I went to, that's what they were. EVERYONE found a reason to pick on someone else for some reason. It was EVIL. The second one was MUCH smaller. There was less than 50 people in my graduating class. So, the whole school knew each other and we were all kind of "forced" to see the good and talents in the people around us. They weren't horribly savage. But, the first one was like an episode of National Geographic!

 

[Vicariously]

randiann one could learn alot from you in respects to Indian culture. Its very interesting. I have Cherokee in me. Apparantly a great deal but I have very fair skin because of the rest of my heritage I guess. Though I tan beautifuly 🙂

Anyhow...I guess this thread in my opinion is one that stirs up bad emotions. EVERYONE has something they could easily get offended by. I am offended by shovanists. Though I do find myself to be a hyprocrit there in respect to things I feel I as a girl, wouldn't want to do because I deem it as a "Man's job"

I am offended by people who are overally racist, but yet I am hyprocrytical because I tend to sterotype groups with in the same race based on the way they dress, how they talk, and what music they listen too. I however, sterotype people of my own race into that category too so I feel its justified at times. (I wouldn't call myself a racist I would call myself a groupest then lol. and the group I talk about many people from all races fit into and its called "hoodlum" lol. for those that want to get offended by that comment I want you to know that I am a people person and I have very very close friends from all races that I consider to be GOOD people and I don't care for hoodlums in any race, thats just me.)

What I am saying is that their are traits in peoples personality that often reflect in a large group and thats why there are sterotypes.

I mean think about it honestly. I mean no offense when I say this...but how often do you hear a joke about a "smart cheerleader" and the fact that they don't exist?

Personally I know that they do in fact exist...but if you look at the cheerleading roster from any school I went to, the majority are in fact Ditzy...

you will hear alot of kids say that all popular kids are mean which infact isnt true...but...if you truly look at it the kid that says that is somewhat justified. it is the kids that are most confident in their popularity that often pick on kids who arent "popular" . But there are always the exception. Alot of kids that fit in to the popular "click" are really very very nice.

there are exceptions to every sterotype but we cant ignore the reasons why they exist. Some over time have been proven completely wrong. But most exist for a reason. Examine of course the people within whom you class yourself that behave in the way that give whatever class you put yourself a "bad name". You are aggrevatied by that simply because its people like that, that allow the sterotype to exist.

 

[NightBird]

I'm british and most of the stereotype's that i've heard about us aren't that bad.

The one that gets me is 'All brits have horrid teeth', I don't, although I walk past the TV and see a talk show on ITV (one of our networks), called 'The jeremy kyle show' and I suppose the best thing that describes the 'guests' on the show would be 'White Trash', and most have horrid teeth.


Also my bad for using 'white trash', lol.

 

[Hello Cutie]

Many people, especially older people from my own personal experience, want to be known by their tribal affiliation. For example, if you met a Navajo man and asked him if he was Native American he may say "No, I'm Dene (their word for Navajo)". It's because it is such a blanket term that it offends some people I think. You are lumping in so many cultures into one term

I understand that perfectly, although it's in relation to something different, the essence is the same.

It's like calling everyone from the continent Asia, Asian. I'm not part Asian, and I find being referred to as 'part-Asian' quite offensive. If people say it to me, I refer to myself as Middle-Eastern, not Asian. Although it's still a blanket term, it's concentrated more on specific areas and it makes it more obvious what my background is- and saves me having to say exactly where my heritage is from, as it's the sort of thing that can cause massive problems for me in modern political climate, even though I'm English born. (It also stops people from assuming I'm either Pakistani or Indian, which can annoy me, as I tend to find alot of people I've met lump anyone with slightly darker skin colour into one of those two categories, when we look COMPLETELY different- if anything I look more spanish!).

So I can understand why the blanket term 'Native American' could be seen as offensive, coming from my own experience with similar treatment.

 

[Lou]

It's like calling everyone from the continent Asia, Asian. I'm not part Asian, and I find being referred to as 'part-Asian' quite offensive. If people say it to me, I refer to myself as Middle-Eastern, not Asian. Although it's still a blanket term, it's concentrated more on specific areas and it makes it more obvious what my background is- and saves me having to say exactly where my heritage is from, as it's the sort of thing that can cause massive problems for me in modern political climate, even though I'm English born. (It also stops people from assuming I'm either Pakistani or Indian, which can annoy me, as I tend to find alot of people I've met lump anyone with slightly darker skin colour into one of those two categories, when we look COMPLETELY different- if anything I look more spanish!).

Oh, I am SOOOO guilty of that. I can usually tell Chinese from the others. And if you catch me on a GOOD day, I might be able to pick out Japanese. Mostly, they just all strike me as simply gorgeous. And I'm very prone to use the term "Asiany". My friend Erica laughs her head off at me. She's from the Philippines and other than the fact that she's drop dead beautiful, I can't say much.
She sent me a picture of a bunch of models saying one was her cousin and the "black" one was a girl she went to school with. I wish I could find the picture because there was like 20 gorgeous women...all tan and pretty. I couldn't even pick out which ONE was the black one, much less her cousin! She wrote back and said, "MAN! You really don't see race, do you?" She's never gotten over it and laughs at me all the time for it. I TRIED! I really did. But, it was impossible. I could count out most of the blondes, and the one with red hair, but that was about it.

For years, I'd just ask people, thinking that if I could put a look with a name, maybe I'd eventually catch on. But, something in my head overpowers it.
Would there be a better term than "Asiany"? Granted, I don't say it to anyone's face. More to my husband who laughs at me for it. And I try to ask, when it's appropriate. Usually it comes out like, "Man! You're so pretty, where's your family from?" And most of the time, I will admit, people are MORE than happy to tell you. But, I'm still guilty of it.

 

[randiann]

And I try to ask, when it's appropriate. Usually it comes out like, "Man! You're so pretty, where's your family from?" And most of the time, I will admit, people are MORE than happy to tell you.

That's what I try to do most of the time. My family, especially my grandmother, have tried to teach us not to judge people by what they look like. I'm still guilty of it, everyone is, but between that and my sister, I've learned not to ask people outright "hey, are you...."

My sister, poor girl, is probably the prettiest girl ever. She's got the high cheekbones, THICK black gorgeous hair with tints of red in it, big brown "mocha cappachino" eyes as she calls them, and just the prettiest face ever. And instead of people asking her "hey, what tribe are you" they tend to ask her "Hey are you Mexican" then "well are you Asian then"...no..."Middle Eastern?" (Or some people will just come up to her and start speaking Spanish, which she doesn't speak). This bugs the crap out of her, as no one ever seems to think to ask her if she's Native American.

If I'm curious about someone's background, I will try and ask in the most respectful way possible. If I know they are Indian, then usually I'll ask what tribe they are from first. If I don't have a clue, then I don't guess. Guessing leads to people getting offended.....

 

[Hello Cutie]

they tend to ask her "Hey are you Mexican" then "well are you Asian then"...no..."Middle Eastern?" (Or some people will just come up to her and start speaking Spanish, which she doesn't speak)

Haha I know how she feels!! That's what happens to me alot.. especially if my mother and I go out, as she's the half I get my ethnicity from, so we get it alot more when we're together.

I tend to get people asking for my name as well, in the hope that they can work out where I'm from.
This is probably my favourite thing that people do (if I'm in a good mood) because my name is Russian, and I don't look even slightly Russian! So it confuses people so much, as I have Russian blood, but look the complete opposite.


I don't know why, but another thing that I hate happens to me quite alot. My dad is a stereotypical englishman- he's tall, very white, blonde hair, blue eyes. I'm quite petite, olive skin, green eyes and black hair, and our features are different, as the shape of my eyes, mouth and face are like my mother's (my nose is the same as my dad, but since his is broken, you can't tell!).
So I'll go out shopping with him, or, when my mother can't make it and I'm home, I go to his work do with him (one of those posh evening dress occasions). And I stick out like a sore thumb. People that know him and my mother recognise me instantly as a young version of her, but people that don't always whisper and point, and on occasion, my dad has actually had people come up to him and ask him what escort agency I'm from!! It's just so rude, and I understand that we don't look alike, but it's just not a polite thing to do- to assume I'm an escort girl- if you don't know, then ask!

EDIT: I HATE BotD. It's official. 🙂 [You're lucky I like you Mr, and I know how to take a joke!]

 

[Lou]

And, I think the lesson being taught here is....ADMIT YOUR STUPID!

I don't think I've ever offended anyone by admitting I have NO IDEA what nationality they are. They always seem quite open about it. Of course, I guess I would be too if someone asked me.
It would seem that when you think you KNOW and are too proud to ask that is when you end up not only offending people but looking like a FOOL!

It stumps me that anyone would walk up to someone and just speak Spanish...unless they honestly couldn't speak English, of course. That's just BIZARRE! I know people who would do it, but they're the kind of people who always want to prove how "smart" they are by doing such things. It makes me giggle to think that they might be the people walking up to your sister and speaking Spanish!

:lmao::lmao::lmao:

 

[randiann]

We have a rather large Mexican population here in Oklahoma, so it's not that uncommon, especially if we go to a Mexican restaurant or if she's hanging out with any of her Mexican friends. She also works retail, so people will single her out thinking "oh, she looks like she speaks Spanish" and go and ask her questions.

 

[RogueHunter]

I use Native American, because we have a lot more people from India here anymore so it alleviates confusion. On my mom's side: Her maternal grandmother was from the mountains of West Virginia. She was born in 1887 and was full blood. We aren't really sure of what tribe she was from since they were remnants of the Powhatan nation among others that just moved more deeply into the mountains. The family changed their names from Mole to Moreland to try and fit in better. My mom's father was half Lenape. His mother died in child birth and because of the social stigma, his father referred to him as his younger brother and remarried a white woman.

 

[randiann]

RH, that's REALLY interesting. I love to hear family histories like that. My great grandmother on my mother's side was full blood Choctaw, and she refused to admit it to anyone. It's really sad that people did that but at the same time, it was really hard back then for anyone to be Native. There was such a stigma associated with it, and don't even get me started on the US government and their idea of "helping" by relocating tribes and starving them. I'm so glad that people are starting to get to where they are proud of their ancestry, not ashamed of it.

I usually refer to Native Americans as that, but alot of the times I am in class and we are discussing the subject, we will use the term "Indian" as well, and sometimes "American Indian" (although I'm not a fan of that one either, just sounds wrong to me). I'm a little less kosher if I'm with my family, we usually say Indian, and if there is any need to clarify we'll say India Indian or other Indian. My little sis also uses the terms dot Indian and feather Indian to clarify; she doesn't mean any offense by it. Of course this is also my little sis who jokes with her Mexican friends and calls them beaners, and they call her a wagon burner. And that's why I don't like the whole PC issue, cause many PC people would say that they shouldn't do that because its wrong and derrogatory, but if they are both doing it in jest and neither is offended by it then I don't see a problem with it. It's when one culture takes something from another and makes fun of it without the other's permission that there is a problem.