Doppelgangland

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Jun 28, 2009
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In Doppelgangland, was it not a HUGE give away when the other Willow was gay? That made me mad because i couldnt appreciate Oz and Willows realtionship. Though I do like gay Willow

I also noticed that other gay willow was NOTHING like gay normal Willow
I mean i know she was a vampire, but Harmony vampire is like Harmony human.... Angel is like Angel... Why is Willow not like Willow?
 
Have you seen all the way through to the end of Season 6 yet? I felt like it was foreshadowing the bad side that Willow had.

And, I have to say I disagree (without going to off topic here), I don't think it cheapened Willow's relationship with Oz at all. Why shouldn't she be able to fall in love with both a male and a female?
 
Although I agree that Human and Vamped Harmony didn't seem very different personality wise, I do have to disagree about Angel. The only reason that Angel is as "human" as he is, is because he has been cursed with a human soul. If you look at the Angel we know versus the vampire-personality of Angelus-- there's just as big a difference as there is between the two Willows.

I could be wrong, but I've always assumed that different people would invoke different reactions (personality wise) to being vamped. And it was my thought that self-esteem may have a lot to do with it, too. For example: Harmony seemed very sure of herself as a human, being the "Queen Bee" in high school gave her confidence that other people her age wouldn't have: so when she was vamped the demon obviously kept a lot of her personality traits. And why not; she was proud to be the popular, pretty girl that she was as a human-- now she had the chance to do the same forever! 😉

Then we have shy, insecure Willow. We see in this episode especially how she hates that she lets others walk all over her, and I've always thought that Buffy's confidence is something that she admired (and wished for herself). So when she's turned, the demon that is created carries on that loathing for how the human Willow acted-- and as a result does anything it can to distance itself from that life and state of mind. So instead of a vampire that carries on its former personality in stride (like Harmony), we are given one that is almost the total opposite of its human counterpart (like Evil/Twisted/Gay Vampire Willow).

I don't know if any of that makes sense, I'm anxious to hear what everyone else's take on it is. That's how I always looked at the difference, anyway 🙂


And personally Vamp Willow's orientation never changed how I felt about Oz/Willow (honestly I never thought that it was something the writers would expand on), but I wouldn't mind hearing how it changed it for you. Were you just not able to take the relationship seriously after you suspected she was gay, or was it something else?

It's neat sometimes to hear the other side of the coin, I'm just curious as to how exactly the episode changed your perspective on Willow/Oz-- obviously it's something my brain hadn't considered 🙂
 
caitaintdead
caitaintdead
That was an awesome reading! You're one smart lady!
It's been theorized that vampires, because they either don't have, or don't respond to, anything vaguely similar to a human conscience, would have no actual sexual orientation, but instead something of an "if it feels good, do it" attitude. Gender or age would have no bearing whatsoever in choosing either a lover or a victim. Labels like heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, even pedophile or incest, have no application whatsoever in dealing with vampires. By that interpretation, what human Willow identified as being a "slightly gay" tendency in Vampire Willow was simply the vampire's natural tendency to take pleasure wherever it happened to be. That would also explain "that one time" that Spike made vague reference to in Angel Season 5.
 
The 'gay' comment wasn't really foreshadowing at all; it was just supposed to be a funny joke, and by coincidence, Willow turned actually gay. Of course now we've seen all the seasons it's foreshadowing, but I don't think we should look at it as "Okay...Willow just realized some homosexual potential...there goes her heterosexual relationship!", because I'm sure that's not what the writers had in mind.

About the human-vampire personality business, I agree with AS. To illustrate the point a bit further let's take a look at Spike and Darla.
Spike was a typical example of a mama's boy, no question. I think there are some traits of him that have been consistent as human and vampire, though: his emotionality. I mean, how evil Spike cried over Drusilla is probably something not every vampire would do, so it's clearly something that doesn't come with the vampire-package. However, the outing of that emotionality in human and vampire Spike is compeltely different. Human Spike dealt with it in his sissy poet ways, while vamp Spike got drunk and threatened to do violence. So there's the difference. The actual personality traits are still there, the demon inside just releases inner desires and viciousness that everyone to some level possesses.
Somebody like Harmony would of course not be very affected by this, she was always just that shallow, dumb girl who was already living at her fullest potential. On the other side we have Angel, Spike and Willow, each of them being repressed some way as humans, either by themselves or outer circumstances.

And then we have Darla. To be honest, we haven't really seen a lot of her back from her human days, but from what we have seen I think we can say she was not really that repressed. She was a cynical prostitue who didn't believe in God...not exactly the poster child for good behaviour back in those days. Consequently, I think she kept a lot of her human traits as a vampire. If I had to describe vampire Darla, the first words that come to mind are 'evil and seductive'. Of course, Darla was probably not super evil as a human, but her outcast status in society allowed her a lot more freedom to really be herself, which might have made her seem 'evil', well, or at least not like one of God's children, to others. So she, like Harmony, didn't turn into what seemed like a completely different persona upon being sired.
(Of course this whole Darla part is extremely hypothetical, as we've seen her originally human in exactly one scene...but I thought this makes sense anyway).

Another thing I just realized, the whole character thing might also be related to the power of the demon that made you. Spike, Angel and Darla all came from a very strong blood line, while Harmony got sired from just some random no name vamp. Doppelgangland Willow might have even been vamped by the Master himself, or someone else of the order of Aurelius, giving her very powerful, but also very evil blood.
 
Angelic Slayer
Angelic Slayer
Interesting theory at the end there
The 'gay' comment wasn't really foreshadowing at all; it was just supposed to be a funny joke, and by coincidence, Willow turned actually gay. Of course now we've seen all the seasons it's foreshadowing, but I don't think we should look at it as "Okay...Willow just realized some homosexual potential...there goes her heterosexual relationship!", because I'm sure that's not what the writers had in mind.
Gotta disagree there. I think it's been a deliberate case of foreshadowing, it's been said time and again that Joss wanted one of the Scoobies - either Xander or Willow - "go gay" over the course of the show, but hadn't decided about who it would be before Seth decided to leave... so there's been hints for either dropped in years 2 and 3 (Larry the football player springs to mind re: gay Xander).

If anything, Vamp!Willow would be a point for the line of argument that Willow is bisexual though, not exclusively gay... I mean, it seemed obvious to me that Vamp!Wil and Vamp!Xan had a twisted sex thing going on together, too, right?
 
Were they like their vampire others, not the way I saw it.
Angel was not like Angelus, pretty much the opposite.
Willow and Vampy Willow were not like each other, at that time.
One thing that was the same. Willow and vampy Willow agreed that the world is a boring place.

And as for Harmony and Vamp Harmony, she was the exception to the rule as she appeared to become a nicer person as a vampire.
 
Willow: I'm a blood-sucking fiend. Look at my outfit!

So, evil Willow.
I love the beginning of the episode which portrays Willow at her slightly awkward, doormat, reliable self as she wishes to rebel from the image that she has created for herself.
Then when Evil and Good Willow interact it is hilarious and I love how Evil Willow is hitting on her self. Then when Cordelia comes to 'return' a book and bores Evil Willow. Really great episode , great high light of season 3 ..😉!
 
Gotta disagree there. I think it's been a deliberate case of foreshadowing, it's been said time and again that Joss wanted one of the Scoobies - either Xander or Willow - "go gay" over the course of the show, but hadn't decided about who it would be before Seth decided to leave... so there's been hints for either dropped in years 2 and 3 (Larry the football player springs to mind re: gay Xander).
Of course. Why would it be just a funny joke that Willow was gay? It's not like she's homophobic, so why would she joke like that? I definitely think that was forshadowing... Which I love.
 
Agreed about the gay joke actually being foreshadowing.

And, I don't see why it would ruin your view of Willow/Oz.

First: there's this little thing called 'bisexuality' which everyone seems to forget about and which Vamp Willow probably is given her relationship with Xander in the other dimension. Actually, I prefer the concept mentioned above of vampire's not even really having a sexuality, though. But, either way, that would mean the vampire version of Willow might still find Oz attractive.

Second: it was Vampire Willow, not Willow.

Third: even when it is our Willow later on who is identifying as gay, not bisexual, that doesn't mean she never loved Oz (or even that she never puppy-loved Xander). She may have fallen for them as people (like the way she fell for "Tara", not "women", and only later started mentioning attraction to other women) or which gender she finds more attractive may have simply changed with time.
 
Third: even when it is our Willow later on who is identifying as gay, not bisexual, that doesn't mean she never loved Oz (or even that she never puppy-loved Xander). She may have fallen for them as people (like the way she fell for "Tara", not "women", and only later started mentioning attraction to other women) or which gender she finds more attractive may have simply changed with time.
Hehe yeah that's the point I've been trying to make here for years. Many people at BB don't believe that what gender you are attracted to can change, they believe you are born either straight, gay or bi. (Which to me is ridiculous.)
 
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