Drowning in footwear
- Thread starter Skanky Vamp
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ChaseRules
When it comes to dating I the Slayer.
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I think so too . I get the felling that the passion in Spike dream had left Buffy & he felt like she was just taking care of him out of obligation & not because she like him anymore & for Spike that would be horrible.
cryptwarmer
I'm in charge of morale!
I haven't checked who wrote each episode, but my experience as a writer over the course of decades (I'm not claiming to be good, just that I've written a ton..however feel free to proceed with eye rolling)...anyway, I find myself repeating things, like even totally stupid little thoughts, comments etc in completely unrelated fic. Like some weird little idea is tucked in my brain and pops up from time to time.
Some of the stuff is so random I have no idea hy it even took residence in my brain to begin with. So...could be a case of that or could be that while watching the show some little detail or thought caught a writer's attention and then they worked it in, either intentionally for drama or as a joke reference.
Here's a theory... it's an old fear of William's... maybe he feared that when his mum died he would have to support himself by selling footwear. Consequently it was Spike, urged by this fear of footwear, who created "Married with children" in an attempt to work through his footwear selling fears by channeling them through Al Bundy, that's how he supported himself and Dru throughout the late 80's and 90's. I'm pretty sure this is correct.
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GoSpuffy
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ChaseRules
When it comes to dating I the Slayer.
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LOL . That so funny it could be true . And that could be why they keep it on . The TV exts didn't want to mess with Dru & Spike .😛
Dam, the person that figured this out is really attentive to detail, I'm impressed!
But I think this line is like the cheese man, people love to find a deeper meaning and behind it all Joss is laughing maniacally cause he just threw that in there to be funny.
If it is true however, that would be one of the best foreshadowing/call back in any TV show. Were speaking very beginning to end there! (but I doubt that would be the case since Joss didn't even have plans for Spike at that point).
But I think this line is like the cheese man, people love to find a deeper meaning and behind it all Joss is laughing maniacally cause he just threw that in there to be funny.
If it is true however, that would be one of the best foreshadowing/call back in any TV show. Were speaking very beginning to end there! (but I doubt that would be the case since Joss didn't even have plans for Spike at that point).
Skanky Vamp
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That's bull! The cheese man DOES mean something. Whedon only says it does not to mess with people's minds. I have no doubt in my mind that Cheese Man has a deeper meaning.
In regards to the footwear/spike line, it's not foreshadowing (obviously) but I think it is a call back. And you see many other long running shows have call-backs in their final seasons for fans that have been there the whole way. And that's what I was wondering if that line was- a callback. I never thought it was anything but a throwaway line, but I am starting to think otherwise now.
Hell, they had a call back to the first episode with Giles saying "the earth is doomed" and I am sure there were other more obvious ones. I just wonder now, how many ones slipped past. How much did we miss because we spent too much time complaining about the season?
GoSpuffy
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thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
Exactly. The very fact that they ALL dreamt about the cheese-man means that he must have some significance.
My theory- he's like an opposing force to the primal power of the First Slayer. She is there to kill them but he is there to help all of them cling to their individuality, to make them think, to challenge them in a 'wtf was that?' kinda way.
Remember when he appeared in Buffy's dream at the very end and it was only then that she decided to fight back against that primal force.
Truth yo.
Skanky Vamp
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As the song says: the cheese stands alone. That was the whole point of the episode. The First Slayer WAS the cheese, Buffy was NOT the cheese. That's why the first slayer was killing off everyone, because the slayer -like the cheese- should stand alone, and in her eyes Buffy was an insult or a blasphemy to what slayers were supposed to be.
thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
Yes but by the same token the cheese appeared to them all as a warning of the dangers to come, although Giles is really the only one who saw that. 'I wear the cheese, it does not wear me' is a perfect metaphor for not being swept away by a oncoming primal power. To fight back and not be helpless you must realise the message of the cheese.
All cheese is different all other cheese, and yet all cheese is still cheese. Like humanity really. A beautiful metaphor. Joss does it again.
Skanky Vamp
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Wait.. I thought it was because Giles relied upon Buffy whereas Buffy no longer needed Giles.
thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
When he says 'I made a place for the cheese slices' to Giles, he's saying 'don't worry, there is a place for you with Buffy'. And he's absolutely right- in S5 Giles proves vital to Buffy's enhanced slayer-training. An individual's strength is used despite the wishes and wants of that primeval force.
Again, I think the cheese represents the inherent humanity of the singular as opposed to the monomanical view of the First slayer.
Or. y'know, I could be talking complete crap. It's really a toss-up.
Skanky Vamp
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But that's the same as saying Giles made a place for the Slayer. He devoted a good portion of his life to it- he made a place for it. Like Giles said the the first slayer- you never had a watcher. I always thought the cheese man was akin to the first watcher. And when they all tapped into the essence of the slayer they too tapped into the (hereditary) essence of the first watcher.
And that's why I am now thinking the call back to the first episode in the drowning in footwear line does in fact reaffirm Spike's position in the group and forecast his future.
thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
I see that but think about its placing within the dream- Giles with a juvenile Buffy and Olivia at the funfair, a family image that is rejected/ruined as Giles enters the freakshow Spike in his crypt (and Olivia's there crying over the pram) and then the cheese man comes in- 'you are still needed, you still have a place, all is not lost'
I guess it could be taken either way- is the cheese man an external force or an internal recognition that we all share and have? Was it Giles telling himself something or being told something about his future?
ChaseRules
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I thinking that The Cheese man was themselves trying to break free & since they had been linked together they all got the same person
just in different way according to their own minds.
just in different way according to their own minds.
Skanky Vamp
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That's what I thought. It was the inner knowledge of the character. Like in Willow's (I made a little space for you) and Xander's (they will not protect you). It was their own inner knowledge about the relationship with the slayer as pseudo-watchers.
But just as the First Slayer came in different forms for those that witnessed it, the First Watcher shows the different positioning of the cheese to fit the person witnessing it. On a plate on a table, being held aloft, wearing it, dangling it. Each symbolizes their own relationship to the slayer- especially when viewed with the words spoken.
bespangeled
Scooby
When did Xander mention railroad spike? I always think of the flashback guy.
Yes - it's the ultimate misdirect!
Rewatch time.
Yes - cling to their individuality - which is why each slice is no longer wrapped in it's cling wrap!
But this was weak processed cheese product that couldn't stand alone - this cheese needed Scoobies!
That's really Gouda!
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Skanky Vamp
In the OP it's mentioned what episode he talks about the railroad spike being driven thru his head. The same episode it's mentioned shoes as just part of the scenery.
Season 1, The Witch.
Xander: Will, yeah, that is the point, you don’t have to drive it through my head like a railroad spike.
ChaseRules
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I don't think that was forshawing anything. I think some writer remembered that line and used it again & for Spike.
Ethan Reigns
Scooby
OK, I have deciphered the cheese! The cheese man first appears to Willow and says he has made a place for the cheese slices. He then appears to Xander and says, "These will not protect you." He appears to Giles and says, "I wear the cheese. It does not wear me." And in the middle of an argument between Sineya and Buffy, he dangles some cheese slices.
In future seasons, Willow gets stiffed with cheesy dialogue, a ham-fisted magic = drugs metaphor and Dark Willow. All of this is done with cheesy dialogue and a cheesy plot and she has to give it the space the cheese man has cleared away.
Xander is not protected - he bails on his wedding and gets shut out of "Conversations with Dead People", the only episode he is not in. He loses an eye, the only person to be mutilated in a fight on the show.
Giles tries valiantly to be in control of his situation, to be the one who wears the cheese and make sure that he is not going to sink with the quality of the writing in later seasons and to avoid that, he is gone for much of Season 6 and the start of Season 7.
The argument between Sineya and Buffy is about whether to live for the job and do it alone or to have friends involved. The cheese man dangles the cheese in front of both of them, but there is going to be no cheesy reconciliation or agreement between them.
In future seasons, Willow gets stiffed with cheesy dialogue, a ham-fisted magic = drugs metaphor and Dark Willow. All of this is done with cheesy dialogue and a cheesy plot and she has to give it the space the cheese man has cleared away.
Xander is not protected - he bails on his wedding and gets shut out of "Conversations with Dead People", the only episode he is not in. He loses an eye, the only person to be mutilated in a fight on the show.
Giles tries valiantly to be in control of his situation, to be the one who wears the cheese and make sure that he is not going to sink with the quality of the writing in later seasons and to avoid that, he is gone for much of Season 6 and the start of Season 7.
The argument between Sineya and Buffy is about whether to live for the job and do it alone or to have friends involved. The cheese man dangles the cheese in front of both of them, but there is going to be no cheesy reconciliation or agreement between them.
Athena
Genius!