Dumbledore (Spoiler if you have not read the last book)

[nerd4hire]

The release date of the final Harry Potter book is out - July 21. I thought it might be fun to renew the debate of how dead is Dumbledore.

I say he's kind of dead, but he might do an Obi Wan Kenobi.

 

[Parsel Deletriu]

I don't know if he's dead or not but I think everything was planned. I don't think Snape is the bad guy.

Maybe Albus did die but... who knows. Maybe he'll return from the ashes like a phoenix. And, speaking of that, how come the fifth book is called "The Order of the Phoenix"? I don't think it stands for Fawkes. Perhaps Albus is some sort of animagus or is related in some way to phoenixes...

Do you remember what happened when they wanted to take him to Azkaban (5th book)?

Fawkes circled the office and swooped low over him. Dumbledore released Harry, raised his hand and grasped the phoenix's long golden tail. There was a flash of fire and the pair of them were gone.

Now that was weird...


There's also the burial... His body set itself into fire, just like a phoenix.

Then several people screamed. Bright, white flames had erupted around Dumbledore's body and the table upon which it lay: Higher and higher they rose, obscuring the body. White smoke spiraled into the air and made strange shapes: Harry thought, for one heart-stopping moment, that he saw a phoenix fly joyfully into the blue, but next second the fire had vanished.

That doesn't sound normal...


In other words, I don't know if he's dead but there's something going on between him and phoenixes...


Just in case, I'll vote for the second option.

 

[Wicked]

Well I suspect he's really dead. Although I really hope he's not 🙂

 

[killerdwarf]

He's dead. I think JK Rowling is gonna leave nothing for anyone to carry on with. If you think about it, Harry's movements have been scripted pretty much right down to the minute so far...he's not allowed to do magic duing the summer, and every second has been accounted for by the author. She's not gonna let anyone have free time, so as to cut the legs out from other authors using her characters. Add that to the fact that Sirius hasn't come back yet despite his unconventional death, and you get the point: she's in control of her characters, and she's gonna kill whoever she wants, and they will stay dead. I wouldn't be surprised if one or more of the Weasleys get taken out. Like Percy...

 

[Parsel Deletriu]

He's dead.

But there are too many things that make you think the opposite.

Read this: Dumbledore is not dead.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

I've discussed this far too much.
All I'll say is.
Dumbledore is not dead, it was a ploy so he could freely look for the Horcruxes while also instilling the pain and determination in Harry it would take to find and kill Voldemorte.
Snape is NOT a bad guy.

I'm done

 

[nerd4hire]

But there are too many things that make you think the opposite.

Read this: Dumbledore is not dead.

On the other hand there's this from JK herself...

"I really didn't enjoy doing that but I had been planning that for years so it wasn't quite as poignant as you might imagine. I'd already done my grieving when I actually came to write it."

http://www.cbc.ca/consumer/story/2007/02/01/harry-potter-publication.html

Why would she be "grieving" if he wasn't actually dead?

 

[Parsel Deletriu]

Maybe she's just trying to convince her fans that she killed him for real 😛.

 

[Edmund Blackadder]

Why would she be "grieving" if he wasn't actually dead?

Because she wants some huge 'reveal' and is trying to take us off the scent.

I have to say the most convincing thing i've read about his death is how he actually died and how the Avada Kadava or whatever was so strange on him as opposed to what we've seen before.

 

[What happened to good TV?]

I'd think he's well and truly dead, and him and snape had some sort of agreement that if it came to it snape should kill him to fool voldemort into thinking he was on his side. and Snapes part of a plan to get harry to kill voldemort...or something. my theory made more sense in my head.

BotD "instilling the pain and determination in Harry it would take to find and kill Voldemorte." I like that idea. Although i still think dumbledore is dead, maybe he thought that is what it would take to give harry the drive he needs to kill voldemort.

to summarize, i think dumbledore is very much dead, and snape has gotta be a good guy

 

[Parsel Deletriu]

Because she wants some huge 'reveal' and is trying to take us off the scent.

I have to say the most convincing thing i've read about his death is how he actually died and how the Avada Kadava or whatever was so strange on him as opposed to what we've seen before.

Yeah, I noticed that while reading that part but I didn't pay much attention to it because I was feeling sort of emo 😛.

 

[Darling Faithy]

Dumbledore isn't dead, and heres why (hahah im so demanding today)

1. When someone says the killing curse it never ever before looked like it did when Snape said it, no one flew up like a giant rag doll as dumbledore had.

2. To do one of the unforgiving curses properly, you really have to mean them, and I don't think Snape meant it.

3. The fact that his body erupted in flames, not only to mention that it was said that Harry thought he saw the shadow of a phoenix erupt..maybe it was one.

4. There is a thing called the draught of the living dead. It is more than likely that dumbledore took it to stage a death, for reasons such as getting voldermort off his tail, and the responisbilty of the school off his back, plus to be able to look for the horcruxes wihtout someone on him.

 

[Parsel Deletriu]

Dumbledore isn't dead, and heres why (hahah im so demanding today)

1. When someone says the killing curse it never ever before looked like it did when Snape said it, no one flew up like a giant rag doll as dumbledore had.

2. To do one of the unforgiving curses properly, you really have to mean them, and I don't think Snape meant it.

3. The fact that his body erupted in flames, not only to mention that it was said that Harry thought he saw the shadow of a phoenix erupt..maybe it was one.

4. There is a thing called the draught of the living dead. It is more than likely that dumbledore took it to stage a death, for reasons such as getting voldermort off his tail, and the responisbilty of the school off his back, plus to be able to look for the horcruxes wihtout someone on him.

Yeah, and don't forget what he told Draco. Only the american version of the book has the parts in bold:

"He told me to do it or he'll kill me. I've got no choice." "He cannot kill you if you are already dead. Come over to the right side Draco, and we can hide you more completely than you can possibly imagine. What is more, I can send members of the Order to your mother tonight to hide her likewise. Nobody would be surprised that you had died in your attempt to kill me -- forgive me, but Lord Voldemort probably expects it. Nor would the Death Eaters be surprised that we had captured and killed your mother -- it is what they would do themselves, after all. Your father is safe at the moment in Azkaban...When the time comes we can protect him too. Come over to the right side, Draco...you are not a killer..." Malfoy stared at Dumbledore.

From Dumbledore is not Dead:

Dumbledore then offers to expand his mother in the protection, and even Lucius when he gets out of Azkaban.

This is very interesting, isn't it? Draco doesn't take him up on it, but Dumbledore is saying he has ways that could make it appear that Draco died when he really hadn't. If we believe that Dumbledore is about to fake his own death, doesn't what he's suggesting for Draco sound exactly like what we suspect that Dumbledore has planned for himself? At the very least, if Dumbledore's planning his own death, he's suggesting Draco follow a similar, yet not as drastic, plan, that he disappear as well.

This clue in Half-Blood Prince is especially interesting when placed next to another passage written much earlier. In the introduction to Quidditch Through The Ages, which was released between Goblet of Fire and Order of the Phoenix, J.K. writes as Dumbledore:

She [Madam Pince] suggested several alternatives, such as telling the people from Comic Relief U.K. that the library had burned down, or simply pretending that I had dropped dead without leaving instructions. (QttA pg viii)

Not only does J.K. mention fire in this passage (see clue #9 below), she also very clearly describes Dumbeldore himself suggesting using his own death as part of a plan. Again, exactly what we suspect Dumbledore did at the end of Half-Blood Prince.

Both of the ommissions are directly related, they are about having Draco appeared to have died, so it would seem the ommisions are intentional.

Did J.K. include those lines originally, and then decide she had gone too far and made the clue too transparent and obvious? Is it possible she decided to remove them, but the lines got accidentally included in the American edition anyway?

 

[zombie.apparatus]

i say he is kinda dead.. that.. or he is dead

 

[Randy Giles]

J.K. Rowling insists he's "really" dead....so I don't know.

 

[nerd4hire]

We Sci Fi/Fantasy fans can be a little cynical, because our heroes at places like Mutant Enemy, or people like Russel T Davies have tricked us in the past - yeah right, no more Daleks.

I just don't get the feeling that's where JK's head is at though. Also there's this...

JK tells us 2 main characters are going to die in the last book. Is she lying about that too? Because if she's not and Dumbledore comes back it creates the possibility these 2 characters are similarly not really dead. This deprives us of the emotional impact of those deaths. It also means the end isn't really the end, because the probable reincarnations of those 2 characters are dangled in front of us.

Edit

Come to think of it, even the inevitable destruction of Voldemort is called into question.

 

[Parsel Deletriu]

JK tells us 2 main characters are going to die in the last book. Is she lying about that too? Because if she's not and Dumbledore comes back it creates the possibility these 2 characters are similarly not really dead. This deprives us of the emotional impact of those deaths. It also means the end isn't really the end, because the probable reincarnations of those 2 characters are dangled in front of us.

Regarding those deaths, all I can say is read this:

On August 2, 2006, at the second night of the Harry, Carrie, and Garp charity event at Radio City Music Hall in New York City, J.K. Rowling gave a reading from Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince, and then answered questions from the fans.

Nine year old Cory Mayer from Bordentown, New Jersey, asked:

In a recent interview you hinted at two main characters dying and possibly Harry Potter too. Was Dumbledore considered one of the main characters or will we have the chance to see him in action once again? Since he is the most powerful wizard of all time and Harry Potter is so loyal to him, how could he really be dead?

J.K. put her head in hear arms and replied:

I feel terrible. The British writer Graham Green once said that every writer had to have a chip of ice in their heart. Oh no. I think you may just have ruined my career. Umm, I really can't answer that question because the answer is in book seven but, you shouldn't expect Dumbledore to do a Gandalf. Let me just put it that way. I'm sorry.

Then author Salman Rushdie and his young son came up to ask a question, to which J.K. reacted:

I'm not that sure this is fair. I think you might be better at guessing plots than most. But anyway, off you go.

Mr. Rushdie then asked:

Until the events of Volume 6, it was always made plain that Snape might have been an unlikable fellow but he was essentially one of the good guys. Dumbledore himself had always vouched for him. Now we are suddenly told that Snape is a villian and Dumbledore's killer. We cannot, or don't want to believe this. Our theory is that Snape is in fact, still a good guy, from which it follows that Dumbledore can't really be dead and that the death is a ruse cooked up between Dumbledore and Snape to put Voldemort off his guard so that when Harry and Voldemort come face to face, Harry may have more allies than he or Voldemort suspects. So, is Snape good or bad? In our opinion, everything follows from it.

J.K. cautiously replied:

Well, Salman, your opinion, I would say is, right. But I see that I need to be a little more explicit and say that Dumbledore is definitely dead. And I do know - I do know that there is an entire website out there that says - that's name is DumbledoreIsNotDead.com so umm, I'd imagine they're not pretty happy right now. But I think I need - you need - all of you need to move through the five stages of grief and I'm just helping you get past denial.

The most important aspect of the theories and clues on this site is that there's more going on in Half-Blood Prince with the "death" of Dumbledore than meets the eye. And J.K.'s first answer to the question of Dumbledore all but confirms this. Even though J.K. is insisting that Dumbledore is dead, when asked point-blank about it by the little boy, J.K. answered:

I really can't answer that question because the answer is in book seven...

That's really important. Dumbledore is dead, but that's not the whole story, because the answer to what is really going on with Dumbledore will be told in Book 7.

In addition, the second most important aspect of this site is the belief that if something is going on, Snape must be in on it, which mean's he's on our side. When Salman Rushdie asked:

So, is Snape good or bad? In our opinion, everything follows from it.

J.K. cautiously replied:

Well, Salman, your opinion, I would say is, right.

There you have it. It's as not black and white as the ending of Half-Blood Prince would have you believe. Everything follows from whether Snape is good or bad, as we've been saying on this site.

 

[nerd4hire]

That's kind of where I am too. I think there may be more up with Snapes than meets the eye, but when J K says

but, you shouldn't expect Dumbledore to do a Gandalf

and

But I see that I need to be a little more explicit and say that Dumbledore is definitely dead.

what she means by her assertion Dumbledore is dead, is Dumbeldore is dead.

Also as I said before the idea Dumbledore won't be doing a Gandalf doesn't mean he can't do an Obi Wan Kenobi.

 

[Randy Giles]

I haven't seen Star Wars since I was fourteen...(the originals)...what does Obi Wan do exactly?

 

[killerdwarf]

Obi Wan guides Luke from the other side, as part of the Force...a manifestation, as it were. He even appears to Luke and Yoda from time to time.

Dumbledore may give Harry advice from some of his pictures, as the rest of the headmasters do, but as I said before, Dumbledore is dead, and I think bringing him back cheapens the story. Harry never trusted Snape, and I think, like all good people, Dumbledore didn't understand the true nature of the evil he had to deal with in the form of Snape. He trusted , as good does by definition, and Snape took advantage of that, as evil does by definition. Additionally, Rowling does NOT want her characters to be used by anyone else (see the above post about scheduling). She's gonna kill a lot of them off, and do something to prevent a fanfic explosion (<<fearless prediction).