Duty or Choice

[LadyLavinia]

I have been watching both "BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER" and "CHARMED" for many years, now. In many ways, I found "BUFFY" much superior to "CHARMED". Both the series' acting and writing was much superior to the latter. Even better, the series' characters "“ especially Buffy Summers "“ managed to develop a more ambiguous outlook on morality over the years, in compare to the older Halliwell sisters. But if there is one major flaw that "BUFFY" shared with "CHARMED" - at least in my eyes "“ is this ridiculous viewpoint that the series' main heroine was duty bound to protect the public from the supernatural evil, due to her special powers.

How did Buffy Summers become a vampire (and demon) slayer? Apparently, she had been born with the supernatural strength of a Slayer, due to a spell cast by three African shamans. These three men decided they needed a hero/heroine - a weapon - that would slay vampires and other demons for them and their community. And to ensure control over this weapon, they picked a young female and cast a spell upon her, infusing her with a demonic essence. In other words, the Slayer line was nothing more than a method of coercion to force young girls and woman to fight supernatural evil for them . . . and later, the Watcher's Council. These men also figured that with the Slayers being young and female would guarantee that they will always have control of the Slayer line.

Many would point out that Buffy has learned to attain some sense of individuality and freedom from her previous authority figures. They would point out Buffy's estrangement from the Watcher's Council in mid-Season 3 and her rejection of Rupert Giles as her personal Watcher in late Season 7 as examples. Granted, these fans would have a point. But I can also think of one or two examples of how Buffy had allowed her belief that she had no choice but to be the Slayer, rule her life.

A prime example occurred in the Season 3 episode, "Choices", when she had received a notice of acceptance from Northwestern University in the Chicago area. Buffy and her friends came to the conclusion that she had no choice, but to turn down the offer and continue her education in Sunnydale. Why? As the Slayer, she had to remain in Sunnydale in order to protect its citizens from the effects of the Hellmouth. Joss Whedon might be a first-class television writer and producer, but I found his reasoning for forcing Buffy to reject the Northwestern offer and remain in Sunnydale as one of the biggest pile of horseshit I have ever come across in television. This explanation made no sense to me. Of course Buffy had a choice. There was no rule that she had to remain in Sunnydale to continue her Slayer duties. Demons and vampires did not exist only in Sunnydale. Hell, Buffy had become a Slayer in another city - namely Los Angeles. Fans might point out the numerous apocalypses that have sprung up over the years in Sunnydale. Again, this struck me as another example of contrived writing on Whedon's part. Were the viewers really expected to believe that apocalypses only appeared in Sunnydale, California? Especially since the series had established there were Hellmouths in other locations around the world "“ including Cleveland, Ohio? I think that the only reason Buffy had decided to remain a Slayer in Sunnydale was her belief that she had no choice but to stay, due to her Slayer powers. She wasn't really making choices. She was allowing her belief that she had no choice but to remain, guide her decisions. And to me, it seems that her reasoning for remaining a Slayer is tainted by her view of "duty". It comes off as cold to me.

In the Season 7 finale, Buffy came up with a scheme that she believed would help defeat the efforts of the First Evil. She convinced Willow to cast a spell "“ using a magical Slayer Scythe that she had managed to acquire in a previous episode "“ to change the Slayer line originally set by the African shamans. Instead of one Slayer manifesting one at a time, the spell allowed all of the Potentials "“ adolescent girls and young women within the Slayer line "“ to become Slayers at the same time. Why did Buffy simply allow Willow to use the scythe to end the Slayer line once and for all? Buffy and Willow could have put an end to a system that originated with psychic rape and sexism. And all of those young females would have been spared the violent and potentially short life of a Slayer. Because she had set this plan in motion, Buffy became the global leader of the Slayers. Despite her dislike of being a Slayer, she remained trapped in this lifestyle.

Personally, I believe that Buffy was an idiot for remaining in a profession that she obviously disliked. Second, I believe that she was a bigger idiot for allowing Merrick and later, Giles, to talk her into assuming Slayer duties in the first place. If she did not want to become a Slayer, she should have refrained from accepting the role. Three, even when she detached herself from the Watchers Council, she continued acting as Slayer, because she rather stupidly believed that she had no choice in the matter. I found it amazing that although no longer in her life, the Watchers Council continued to exert a strong influence over her.

The idea of a person with super or magical abilities acting as the protector/savior of the public seemed to have its origins in comic book superheroes. As much as I find these stories entertaining, I realize that I am fast developing a deep contempt for them. It is one thing to choose to become involved in a lifestyle that turns you into some kind of cop with special powers. It is another to allow someone to coerce you into that situation, because you have special powers. The idea that someone is duty-bound to act like some supernatural cop just because he or she possesses special powers strikes me as RIDICULOUS. Even worse, it seems like coercing someone into a dangerous lifestyle or profession against his or her will. For me, it compatible with the military draft. How can anyone in their right mind support such an idea?

As for Buffy, will she spend the rest of her life swallowing the belief that she has no choice but to continue her "duties" as a Slayer? Will she come to enjoy being a Slayer? Or will her story end with her finally having the guts to act upon her dislike of Slayer duties and try to make a life for herself? I guess only Joss Whedon knows the answer to that question.

 

[Kana]

As for the Slayer spell, I totally agree. It has little to do with empowerment and I find it thematically disgusting, to subsitute liberation for preternatural strength. All it's doing is perpetuating the subjugation of the Shadowmen and worse still it's dressing it up as feminism.

As for Buffy's duty, I think it's a moral duty to which she's adhereing. She realises that with her powers she can have a greater ability to protect others. By taking the power and subverting the authority that tried to control her, she demonstrated the liberation that made her famous, but I understand her feeling of moral duty, even if I would 'mug it off' myself if possible. The duty is link to who Buffy is not what she is.

 

[Icarium]

A prime example occurred in the Season 3 episode, ”Choices”, when she had received a notice of acceptance from Northwestern University in the Chicago area. Buffy and her friends came to the conclusion that she had no choice, but to turn down the offer and continue her education in Sunnydale. Why? As the Slayer, she had to remain in Sunnydale in order to protect its citizens from the effects of the Hellmouth. Joss Whedon might be a first-class television writer and producer, but I found his reasoning for forcing Buffy to reject the Northwestern offer and remain in Sunnydale as one of the biggest pile of horseshit I have ever come across in television. This explanation made no sense to me.

Seems to me you have totally missed the point of the episode. Buffy and Willow were making a choice. Nothing, except for their conscience, really forces them to fight evil, they choose to do so. That's what makes them heroes.

Fans might point out the numerous apocalypses that have sprung up over the years in Sunnydale. Again, this struck me as another example of contrived writing on Whedon’s part. Were the viewers really expected to believe that apocalypses only appeared in Sunnydale, California? Especially since the series had established there were Hellmouths in other locations around the world – including Cleveland, Ohio? I think that the only reason Buffy had decided to remain a Slayer in Sunnydale was her belief that she had no choice but to stay, due to her Slayer powers. She wasn't really making choices. She was allowing her belief that she had no choice but to remain, guide her decisions. And to me, it seems that her reasoning for remaining a Slayer is tainted by her view of "duty". It comes off as cold to me.

Well, Joss does suck as a worldbuilder, I can give you that. 🙂 But I don't think the point is that Buffy can't be everywhere. Buffy can choose to fight or not to fight. If she doesn't people will die. That is what the choice is. Unless she can find someone else, like say the government troops to fight demons, but what are the odds of that happening? Oh, wait...

In theory at least (because the execution often contradicted that notion) Buffy is like the only brain surgeon in an area or the only firefighter. She can refuse to use her special skills to save people but that means people will die. It sucks for her to be in that position because she never wanted to carry such a burden. That's the dramatic conflict, not someone literally forcing her to be a hero. She starts out as a reluctant hero and embraces her role.

Personally, I believe that Buffy was an idiot for remaining in a profession that she obviously disliked.

Well, Buffy has been an idiot ever since S6, didn't you get the memo? 🙂 Seriously, this is something that S8 sweeps under the carpet and that annoys me quite a bit. Why is Buffy in charge of the Slayers? Why hasn't she retired or at least helped out only occasionally? I think the idea is that she didn't dislike Slaying any more but the execution was way too sloppy.

Second, I believe that she was a bigger idiot for allowing Merrick and later, Giles, to talk her into assuming Slayer duties in the first place. If she did not want to become a Slayer, she should have refrained from accepting the role.

I am sure she would have, if this didn't mean dead innocent people. See also Halliwell, Piper who yearned for normal life in a way much similar to Buffy's. Buffy tried to quit before the TV show started, again in Anne, in The Weight of the World, etc. She came back not because Giles was so convincing but because she couldn't bear to do nothing to help.

Even worse, it seems like coercing someone into a dangerous lifestyle or profession against his or her will. For me, it compatible with the military draft. How can anyone in their right mind support such an idea?

Well, it's preferable to the world ending, isn't it? And in a more-meta sense, the reluctant hero, cliche as it is, tends to allow more room for drama and conflict than the hero who loves saving the world and never has any doubts. For instance Prophecy Girl would lose much of its impact if Buffy had said "Prophecy? Don't make me laugh!" and went to kick The Master's ass without trying to quit first.

 

[white avenger]

I can agree with the fact that empowering all of the Potential Slayers throughout the world was irresponsible and probably unnecessary. Empowering those girls present there in Sunnydale made sense, because they were there and were apparently willing to accept the responsibility that went with being a Slayer ("Here's where you get to make a choice," should have applied to everyone who would be affected by the spell, not just the dozen or so girls there) With Simone and her followers, we see that not all superhumans are automatically superheroes. But I most definitely do NOT agree that anyone who willingly puts themselves in harm's way to protect others is a fool.

 

[LadyLavinia]

As for Buffy's duty, I think it's a moral duty to which she's adhereing. She realises that with her powers she can have a greater ability to protect others. By taking the power and subverting the authority that tried to control her, she demonstrated the liberation that made her famous, but I understand her feeling of moral duty, even if I would 'mug it off' myself if possible. The duty is link to who Buffy is not what she is.

Buffy is still perpetrating the sexism and coercion that initiated the shamans' spell in the first place. And I find nothing morally redeeming about her actions as a Slayer. She's either doing it for the self-preservation of herself, her loved ones or out of some fear that human existence might one day cease - which it will anyway; or her belief that she has no choice. One reason smacks of selfishness and the other of a cold resignation in which the heart plays no part. Why bother continuing this charade?

I can agree with the fact that empowering all of the Potential Slayers throughout the world was irresponsible and probably unnecessary.

Considering how the Slayer line originated, having one Slayer at a time was also irresponsible, misogynistic and probably unnecessary. What on earth made those African shamans even better?

Well, it's preferable to the world ending, isn't it?

It's going to happen, sooner or later. The problem with humans is that we want to live forever . . . or exist forever and cannot accept the idea that this won't happen.

Seems to me you have totally missed the point of the episode. Buffy and Willow were making a choice. Nothing, except for their conscience, really forces them to fight evil, they choose to do so. That's what makes them heroes.

I found nothing heroic about Buffy's choice. She did it out of resignation, because she believed that she had no choice but to remain in Sunnydale. Which wasn't the truth, by the way. If she was determined to continue killing vampires that much, she could have done so in Illinois. As for Willow, her decision to remain was nothing more than an attempt to feel good about herself.

I suspect that most people love the idea of a powerful savior in fiction is because they might want one in real life. They will never admit this, but they prefer the idea of someone always coming to their rescue or taking care of them, instead of dealing with the prospect of having to take care of themselves. I suspect this is the reason why comic book heroes and heroines or mythological heroes like Hercules have remained popular for so long.

 

[Red Sox Nation]

I agree with you on most of your points. I find it weird that in Btvs they imply that demons only exist in Sunnydale (not only, but 100 times more than anywhere else), whereas in Ats they specifically state that demons & evil forces exist everywhere equally.

when the three monks created the slayers, women were just objects of men at that time, but its surprising that the watcher's council continued to do this to women & forcing them to work alone as well.

I never liked the "potentials" story arc anyway, I liked it when a girl gets chosen after the previous slayer is dead with no specific potentials, just some random teenager. I also hated the fact that they activated every potential, what if nobody wanted to comply & a big mess of slayers around the world start forming gangs...etc. a small version of consequences was the slayer from Ats S5, if Angel & Spike weren't there, she might have ended up killing a lot of people (I heard she was supposed to be a regular in Ats S6).

 

[Icarium]

And I find nothing morally redeeming about her actions as a Slayer.

Why did you watch the show then, I wonder?

Considering how the Slayer line originated, having one Slayer at a time was also irresponsible, misogynistic and probably unnecessary.

One Slayer is better than zero. It's not as if the choice was between one and a million.

It's going to happen, sooner or later. The problem with humans is that we want to live forever . . . or exist forever and cannot accept the idea that this won't happen.

Okay, so if aliens from space attack tomorrow you would rather lie down and die than fight or at least help those who fight? Yes, we are all going to die some day but I don't see what's wrong with trying to postpone that as much as possible.

I found nothing heroic about Buffy's choice. She did it out of resignation, because she believed that she had no choice but to remain in Sunnydale.

No, she didn't. It was quite similar to what she told Ford - "You have choice! It might not be a good one but you have it.". One of the option would have had Buffy tormented by guilt, so it wasn't much of a choice but still it was a dilemma. Or as Willow put it "It's a good fight, Buffy, and I want in".

I suspect that most people love the idea of a powerful savior in fiction is because they might want one in real life. They will never admit this, but they prefer the idea of someone always coming to their rescue or taking care of them, instead of dealing with the prospect of having to take care of themselves. I suspect this is the reason why comic book heroes and heroines or mythological heroes like Hercules have remained popular for so long.

So, in other words, everyone who disagrees with you has issues? How nice... And many people like heroes because they want to be like them, not because they fantasize about being damsels in distress.

 

[LadyLavinia]

Why did you watch the show then, I wonder?

For entertainment . . . and in the hope that one day, Buffy would realize that she either give up a profession that she hated or simply acknowledge that she really enjoys being a Slayer. So far, I haven't seen any sign of either.

Am I really expected to blindly accept the idea of her being a Slayer as something she is "duty-bound" to do, because I watch the show?

One Slayer is better than zero. It's not as if the choice was between one and a million.

There are demon hunters all over the world in Jossverse. How does having one Slayer, in one location was supposed to help? Were we really supposed to believe that apocalypses only occurred in Sunnydale?

And I must ask you, do you view "saving the world" as something morally good . . . or merely an act of self-preservation of the human race?

No, she didn't. It was quite similar to what she told Ford - "You have choice! It might not be a good one but you have it.". One of the option would have had Buffy tormented by guilt, so it wasn't much of a choice but still it was a dilemma. Or as Willow put it "It's a good fight, Buffy, and I want in".

Have you really forgotten "Touched", in which Buffy admitted to Spike that she disliked being a Slayer?

Seems to me you have totally missed the point of the episode. Buffy and Willow were making a choice. Nothing, except for their conscience, really forces them to fight evil, they choose to do so. That's what makes them heroes.

Buffy remained in Sunnydale, because she believed that she had no choice. Willow remained, because the idea of fighting evil with Buffy bolstered her ego and allowed her to hide from her own insecurities.

Seems to me you have totally missed the point of the episode. Buffy and Willow were making a choice. Nothing, except for their conscience, really forces them to fight evil, they choose to do so. That's what makes them heroes.

Since S6? I would rephrase that she has been an idiot since Merrick and later, Giles, convinced her to assume the duties of a Slayer.

So, in other words, everyone who disagrees with you has issues? How nice... And many people like heroes because they want to be like them, not because they fantasize about being damsels in distress.

This isn't about people having issues because they disagree with me. This is about issues that I have been aware of for a long time. In fact, I've read articles on the subject about fans of pop culture that featured powerful or supernatural vigilantes.

 

[Icarium]

Am I really expected to blindly accept the idea of her being a Slayer as something she is "duty-bound" to do, because I watch the show?

No, I just meant I find it weird to watch seven seasons and post on fanforums if you don't like the basic premise of the show. If you think putting your life on the line to save strangers is so stupid why bother with a show where this happens in just about every episode?

There are demon hunters all over the world in Jossverse. How does having one Slayer, in one location was supposed to help?

Back when the first Slayer was created, I doubt the Shadow Men were thinking globally, they probably just wanted their tribe to survive. And yes, the premise is indeed rather ridiculous as it seems utterly implausible that an apocalypse hadn't succeeded in bringing an end to the world yet, with them being an yearly occurrence but that's more of a worldbuilding problem than one of character motivation.

Have you really forgotten "Touched", in which Buffy admitted to Spike that she disliked being a Slayer?

I never said she loved it. The point is Buffy had the choice and decided to help people. No one put a gun to her head and forced her to do it. Ditto for Xander, Willow, Giles and all the other people who help Buffy at one point or another.

And I must ask you, do you view "saving the world" as something morally good

Of course I do.

Buffy remained in Sunnydale, because she believed that she had no choice.

No, she believed she was picking the lesser of two evils.

 

[Red Sox Nation]

Buffy did show time & time again that she hated being a slayer, yet she didn't leave the job.
but I think the world is the problem with the Buffyverse, its not just stupid but plain ridiculous. if Joss created a balanced world, a lot of things would be solved.

 

[LadyLavinia]

Buffy did show time & time again that she hated being a slayer, yet she didn't leave the job.
but I think the world is the problem with the Buffyverse, its not just stupid but plain ridiculous. if Joss created a balanced world, a lot of things would be solved.

Shows like "BUFFY" can be very entertaining. And God knows, I love the show. But the problem with it and other shows like "CHARMED" is that the creators and writers would have the audience believe that a world without a Slayer or witches who "protect innocents" would fall to pieces. Which is ludicrous to me. It's like saying that the real danger to the existence of humanity comes in an external force in which an "Other" is the threat. Storylines that demand that some supernatural vigilante battle supernatural evil, because deep down, humans are in love with the idea of a powerful savior and also refuse to consider the possibility that humanity's real enemy is itself.

No, I just meant I find it weird to watch seven seasons and post on fanforums if you don't like the basic premise of the show. If you think putting your life on the line to save strangers is so stupid why bother with a show where this happens in just about every episode?

Actually, this thought came to me recently. Or else I would have posted it a long time ago.

 

[fly on the wall]

I strongly disagree. To me, the whole show is entirely about choices. Sure, Buffy felt duty-bound at times...and why shouldn't she? She did not choose to be endowed with the Slayer powers or responsibility, and so in this way, it was out of her hands...but clearly, she could have walked away. The whole Faith plotline laid this out for us. Slayers are humans, they make mistakes, and they make choices every day...to follow along in the direction their "destiny" points, or to break away from that. And that was the point of that episode where Buffy chose to remain in Sunnydale rather than go off to college. She saw the choices Faith had made, recognized she could make choices that took her away from the Hellmouth, but CHOSE to stay. NOT because she had to, but because she decided to. I thought that point was pretty clearly made.

To suggest that one Slayer in one location doesn't make a difference, and that Buffy could be just as effective elsewhere...well, I think "The Wish" let us explore that arena. Buffy's existence exactly where she was DID make a difference, a huge one. And she would in no way be able to do her job as well from miles and miles away from the hotspot of evil, the town where she lived.

That being said, of course she gets down about being the Slayer. It's a rough gig, to say the least. Lots of us complain equally about our jobs which we are not morally bound to and could leave. Lots of us feel duty-bound to work at jobs we hate. But that doesn't mean this is Buffy's way of lamenting the fact that she has no choice in the matter. She was given the strength to fight. A lot of people aren't. A lot of people needlessly die in horrible ways, powerless to stop it...and here she is, with the power. Yes, that power was birthed in a horrible sexist and dehumanizing manner...and yes, Buffy could have rejected it at any point. But she CHOSE not to. Where you see arguably selfish resignation, I see a woman making choices in a difficult world where the enemies keep on coming.

Personally, it's not so much about self-preservation or moral standing. I think being given the ability to fight and choosing not to is an insult to every person whose power is stripped from them, whose right to choose really IS taken away by violence or murder or being turned into a vampire, and if given the Slayer powers myself, you better believe I would use them. Not because I had to, but because I could.

There were times, early on in her Slayerhood, where I'm sure Buffy didn't understand this, where she felt trapped into something she never signed up for, which is where Merrick's and Giles' advice came in...but after all she's seen, all the death and suffering she's witnessed and been able to prevent, how can we be mad that she never chose anything different?

Furthermore, choice was the whole point of "Chosen," for it cannot be argued that an enormous amount of pressure was placed on the One Slayer's shoulders. A normal, average girl, being (seemingly) randomly selected to defend the whole world? Yeah, that's pressure. By activating the scythe, Buffy was giving a CHOICE to other potentials. No one was obligated or expected to join their cause. They could choose not to with little issue, seeing as there were thousands of other Slayers who could step up to the plate. And yes, they could also choose to form rogue groups and commit acts of evil, like Faith...but again, THAT WAS THE WHOLE POINT. The choice. It was actively going AGAINST the Slayer's seedy beginnings in that way.

And, on a more abstract level, this moment is important for the viewer, too. I read a Buffy secret once that said, "I don't think people who say, 'I'd been hoping to be chosen,' understand Buffy. We were all chosen." And I can't agree more with that statement. It was a way to extend this choice (to fight for good or evil) to the audience. In a metaphorical sense, of course.

 

[Icarium]

It's like saying that the real danger to the existence of humanity comes in an external force in which an "Other" is the threat. Storylines that demand that some supernatural vigilante battle supernatural evil, because deep down, humans are in love with the idea of a powerful savior and also refuse to consider the possibility that humanity's real enemy is itself.

We are talking about a show where the monsters started out as metaphors for real life issues, right? And which had quite a few human villains. Even amongst the Big Bads - the Mayor, Willow and also in a way Adam who was created by a human. Most of the humans in the cast have human blood on their hands. So I think it's rather simplistic to claim BtVS is about how humanity is only threatened by demons and other non-humans.

Buffy gets betrayed or at least let down in a very traumatic way by just about every human being in her life - Joyce, Dawn, Hank, Willow, Xander, Giles, Riley, Faith, Ford, etc. So she isn't struggling against the monsters only. Kendra is the one that fits what you are describing better and she is portrayed as being in the wrong for being detached from humanity and having no normal life.

 

[LadyLavinia]

We are talking about a show where the monsters started out as metaphors for real life issues, right? And which had quite a few human villains. Even amongst the Big Bads - the Mayor, Willow and also in a way Adam who was created by a human. Most of the humans in the cast have human blood on their hands. So I think it's rather simplistic to claim BtVS is about how humanity is only threatened by demons and other non-humans.

BUFFY could have gone beyond using monsters as metaphors for real life issues. It could have been used as a metaphor for humanity's herd (or Us vs. Other) mentality, but it never really explored that particular trait in the human's psyche. It only paid lip service to that idea.

 

[Icarium]

Maybe because that mentality is perfectly valid in a world full of creatures who want to end the world or eat as many humans as possible? In that world the main threat is indeed the Other. You prefer the characters to pretend otherwise?

Not to mention they managed to include among the good guys Anya, Spike, Angel, Lorne, Illyria, Harmony, Exposition Snake, etc. I already mentioned the human villains. So I really don't see the problem.

 

[LadyLavinia]

Maybe because that mentality is perfectly valid in a world full of creatures who want to end the world or eat as many humans as possible? In that world the main threat is indeed the Other. You prefer the characters to pretend otherwise?

Not to mention they managed to include among the good guys Anya, Spike, Angel, Lorne, Illyria, Harmony, Exposition Snake, etc. I already mentioned the human villains. So I really don't see the problem.

Perhaps the human race deserves to be eradicated. It's been destroying this world little by little for generations, anyway. Have you considered that? And this whole "let's save the world schtick" strikes me as nothing more than another example of humanity's desire to exist on this earth forever. It seems that it's more about self-preservation and a fear of dying, not moral compass.


And I've noticed that the non-human "good guys" are accepted, because they are willing to embrace some kind "humanity". The more they associate with or embrace humanity, the more they are accepted by the human characters and the viewers.

 

[Icarium]

Perhaps the human race deserves to be eradicated. It's been destroying this world little by little for generations, anyway. Have you considered that?

Irrelevant much? Demons have tried to eradicate humanity long before it had the ability to do any real damage to the world. Humans might destroy the world one day. Demons would destroy the world, if given half a chance. Do I need to explain the difference?

And this whole "let's save the world schtick" strikes me as nothing more than another example of humanity's desire to exist on this earth forever. It seems that it's more about self-preservation and a fear of dying, not moral compass.

Oh, now fighting to prevent your own death is bad? Okay...Self-preservation does not exclude moral compass, you know. And I am all ears waiting to hear how exactly is fighting for one's survival against an unprovoked attack immoral in any way, shape or form.

And I've noticed that the non-human "good guys" are accepted, because they are willing to embrace some kind "humanity". The more they associate with or embrace humanity, the more they are accepted by the human characters and the viewers.

Well, duh. If they didn't have some basic decency, they wouldn't want to think as humans as anything but food anyway, so humans wouldn't have a chance to accept them anyway. 🙂 And you seem to be defining humanity as having morality and conscience. This isn't really how things are in the Buffyverse. Not to mention Spike and Anya were quite unrepentant for years, yet were still a part of the Scooby gang. Freaking Harmony becomes Angel's secretary. For my money, the show was actually way too inclusive and characters given way too many chances. Humans and non-humans alike.

 

[LadyLavinia]

Okay...Self-preservation does not exclude moral compass, you know. And I am all ears waiting to hear how exactly is fighting for one's survival against an unprovoked attack immoral in any way, shape or form.

What on earth are you talking about? I never said that fighting for one's survival was immoral. Why did you feel the need to put words in my mouth? I mean . . . really.

I said that self-preservation had nothing to do with moral compass. I NEVER said that self-preservation was immoral. Good grief!!🙄

Well, duh. If they didn't have some basic decency, they wouldn't want to think as humans as anything but food anyway, so humans wouldn't have a chance to accept them anyway. And you seem to be defining humanity as having morality and conscience.

It's very rare for human beings to have basic decency. It's simply one of many illusions we like to harbor about ourselves. And I see that you're willing to buy the characterization that humans have basic decency, yet non-humans don't. Hmmm . . . sounds like one of those "herd mentality" situations, where it is okay to think the worst of those who are not part of one's group.

 

[Buffy Summers]

Relax, people. Keep it civil.

 

[Icarium]

It's very rare for human beings to have basic decency. It's simply one of many illusions we like to harbor about ourselves. And I see that you're willing to buy the characterization that humans have basic decency, yet non-humans don't. Hmmm . . . sounds like one of those "herd mentality" situations, where it is okay to think the worst of those who are not part of one's group.

Way to misunderstand my point. I never claimed all humans have basic decency and neither did the show. The main characters do have it, though, which is why the likes of Anya and Spike get treated better when they behave decently rather than wild animals. Herd mentality? Good one. Is it herd mentality to hate ruthless murderers? Well, then there are an awful lot of people in that "herd". They don't think the worst for demons and vampires - they do it because said creatures are indeed evil. Not "I have heard they might be evil" but "I have seen hundreds of their victims and they have tried to kill me again and again". Might as well jump to the conclusion that people who think Hitler or Stalin or some serial murderer was a monster are victims of herd mentality, merely because it's a common opinion.

As for buying the characterization - it's fantasy. If the writers wanted to they could have made all vampires benevolent like angels. You can like it or not but demanding that they do it in a way that fits your views about the world strikes me as rather petty.