"Empty Places" leadership switch

Chasing Cordy

Potential
Joined
Feb 26, 2006
Messages
201
Location
Pittsburgh, Pa.
I have to give these potentials credit for being risky!

You have two slayers in front of you.
One of them you have known for a rather long time and you are living in her home. The other one shows up a few days ago and you have been told she has a very unstable history.
Why pick the one you know less about?

Seems like the girls were letting the vineyard battle get the best of them and not thinking about it.

Xander gives this emotional speech about Buffy one minute and the next minute, he is with the rest of the gang questioning Buffster's leadership?
I think the trauma was too much for all of them and Buffy was the only one thinking straight due to her understanding of what it takes to beat evil.
 
I have to agree with you there, Chasing Cordy. I don't think they made the right decision...bad things happen all the time in this world and you have to move on and that's what I've learned. It's not much sense to just get all upset about a passed event, even though I, myself still do that. Of course, it's hard and when you're upset you don't really understand what's going on, I know.

When Xander was joining in with the whole bargain, it was probably because he lost his eye and had a big patch over it. It must have been awfully painful and then Buffy all of a sudden asks everyone to go back when some people are in critical condition.

I mean, that would have been quite a shock but Buffy was right...Caleb was hiding something and it was the key to winning the battle! They underestimated Buffy's knowledge...
 
But while Buffy may have been right, she was going about it completly wrong. She had just put that group through hell, They were damaged not just physically buy emotionally! They had lost friends and a blow to their confidence, this one was of their first battles and it was a crushing defeat. I really don't think they had another choice but to give Faith control! I personally would have done the same, even knowing she was right!
 
H
Helpless
I agree. Buffy was right but they were damaged...she should have maybe waited it out a bit longer, instead of going back in full blow. But really, with the weight of the world on your shoulders...that's gotta be hard, even for Buffy.
W
Wicked
[No message]
While I have always been quick to agree that it was totally wrong and heartless of the scoobs and potentials to boot Buffy out, I do see a reasoning of why they were upset. I agree that Buffy could've waited a bit, or taken a bit more time to state her case, instead of jumping the gun (even though she was right).

I do not fully understand the sudden change in behavior towards Buffy, but I do understand why they were upset about the current situation. I mean, nobody wants to die, and that's just what was happening.
 
All I'm gonna say is...pointless and idiotic. Don't ask questions, don't get me started, it will end up with me saying things about the precious Joss Whedon that I will later regret and end up killing myself over.
 
But while Buffy may have been right, she was going about it completly wrong. She had just put that group through hell, They were damaged not just physically buy emotionally! They had lost friends and a blow to their confidence, this one was of their first battles and it was a crushing defeat. I really don't think they had another choice but to give Faith control! I personally would have done the same, even knowing she was right!

Ugh, that is incredibly silly.

Buffy is a leader, she has to make decisions. Leaders get people killed, its a facet of war. Indecision is more dangerous than the wrong decision.

Buffy isn't a part of the 'waitansee' tribe. She makes the tough decisions, the others should have obeyed their lord an' master. More to the point, Buffy was proved right, the others walked into a trap. I just don't get your reasoning at all.
 
W
Wicked
If you had just had your eye put out and seen some of your friends killed, would you go right back in? Buffy may have been the leader, but they didnt HAVE to follow her
The Potentials, i can forgive. They had only the words of Buffy and had been told she was theonly one. After the big defeat and Faith proving Buffster wrong again, they were scared and confused.
I have no issue with them wanting a different opinion.
My issues are with Giles, Willow and Xander.
These three knew Buffy better then any other person on the planet, they even understood her reasoning, yet they turned on her.
They knew what Faith had done, how unstable she was, yet they helped oust Buffy and let Faith in......
I swear i could go on for hours about how pathetic i found this particular part of the season but i wont........
 
Ugh, that is incredibly silly.

Buffy is a leader, she has to make decisions. Leaders get people killed, its a facet of war. Indecision is more dangerous than the wrong decision.
While thats true, the people she was leading to their potential deaths are people, people who should get a choice in the matter, They deserve to be able to question Buffy's decisions, and to be a leader you have to have the confidence of your troops, Buffy didn't have that, they didn't trust her. They should not have followed her.

[/QUOTE]Buffy isn't a part of the 'waitansee' tribe. She makes the tough decisions, the others should have obeyed their lord an' master. More to the point, Buffy was proved right, the others walked into a trap. I just don't get your reasoning at all.[/QUOTE]
They shouldn't have followed Buffy blindly, If they had gone back into fight Caleb they would have lost, They had no confidence in themselves or the person leading them. And the point is not that Buffy is right! If all the potentials had died just so she could get the scythe, it would have been a pointless battle.

The Potentials, i can forgive. They had only the words of Buffy and had been told she was theonly one. After the big defeat and Faith proving Buffster wrong again, they were scared and confused.
I have no issue with them wanting a different opinion.
My issues are with Giles, Willow and Xander.
These three knew Buffy better then any other person on the planet, they even understood her reasoning, yet they turned on her.
They knew what Faith had done, how unstable she was, yet they helped oust Buffy and let Faith in......
I swear i could go on for hours about how pathetic i found this particular part of the season but i wont........
But Buffy had just suffered the worst blow she has probably ever had, battle wise, Their confidence in her would have been shaken. Do you honestly believe that you would not have questioned Buffy in that situation, you would have signed up to head back to the vineyard after suffering a loss like that, on a hunch Buffy had, and you have to look at it from the point of view of the people at the time, not with the knowledge that Buffy was correct!
 
W
Wicked
i completely agree.
But Buffy had just suffered the worst blow she has probably ever had, battle wise, Their confidence in her would have been shaken. Do you honestly believe that you would not have questioned Buffy in that situation, you would have signed up to head back to the vineyard after suffering a loss like that, on a hunch Buffy had, and you have to look at it from the point of view of the people at the time, not with the knowledge that Buffy was correct!
Yes the group had just suffered the worst defeat they ever had. That is why i can forgive the potentials, Wood, Faith and Anya(to an extent).
The potentials had neem under Buffy's rule for a few months, followed her and done as she had said. The first big battle they attempt, the lose.
Wood, again, doesn't really know Buffy, but knows what a Slayer is, so when Faith is presented to the group, a character he doesnt know, he has a right to question Buffy as leader.
Faith, she didn't want to oust Buffy, she just wanted the group to have a bit more thinking time.
Anya, is Anya.

Xander, Mr '"Let me tell you something about Buffy. In fact you all should listen to this. I've been through more battles with Buffy than you all can ever imagine. She's stopped everything that has ever come up against her. She's layed down her life litterally to protect the people around her. This girl has died two times and she's still standing. you're scared, that's smart. You got questions, you should. But you doubt her motives, you think Buffy's all about the kill, you take the little bus to battle. I've seen her heart, and this time not litterally, and I'm telling you right now she cares more about your lives than you will ever know. You've gotta trust her. She's earned it."" Harris gives this speech to the potentials. yet a few days later after the first time something really bad happens to him, he turns on her. Yes he is scared, we all would, be he is part of the team that ousts Buffy "She's stopped everything that has ever come up against her" Summers so that Faith "I've attacked each of you and even murdered people, just broke out of Jail" Lahane.

So, had i the full extent of Xander's thoughts and feelings, no I don't think i would question it, because Buffy, the leader, knows what she is doing.

Willow. Buffy and Xanders BEST Friend. Doesnt follow blindly, BUT knows the strength in Buffy. She knows the reason Buffy makes decisions, she knows she doesnt do it lightly, and she knows that when it comes to this stuff, she is the 'Slayer' she knows whats the what. Now, her other friend is injured, she isnt worried that Buffy is wrong, she is scared, yet Buffy has constantly been there, she has given herself to the Slayer, and Willow, with no justification other then a little bit of fear, helps to oust her in favour of Faith...want me to go on that rant again?
This is arguably the first time the gang have faced something thats scared them so much, but at the same time, 7 years of Buffy being the Slayer has taught them she knows what to do, she is the right person to be the Slayer.
Anya was wrong about Buffy being lucky, and all her friends show know that. Its because she is the powerful, intelligent and demon fighting Slayer she is, that gives her the right to be leader, its taken her 7 years to achieve this.

Giles the biggest hypocrite of them all.
He would have faced his fear more then once. His rationale wasn't because he was scared, it was because Buffy didn't need him anymore. She had the power to lead, she had been successful without him. He saw the dissention in the ranks, but instead of helping the proven Slayer do her duties, and help calm down the unrest, he attacks her forcing her out for....yadda yadda Faith Rant.
GILES
(pacing) Spike's a liability, Buffy. He refuses to see it, and so do you. Angel left here because he realized how harmful your relationship with him was. Spike, on the other hand, lacks such self-awareness.

BUFFY
(stops fighting, turns to Giles) Spike is here because I want him here. We need him. I'm in the fight of my life.

VAMPIRE
Really?

BUFFY
Not you, Richard. (punches him)

GILES
You want Spike here even after what he's done to you in the past?

BUFFY
It's different now. He has a soul.

GILES
And the First is exploiting that to his advantage.

BUFFY
Oh, my God. (stakes the vampire) You're stalling me. You're keeping me away"”

GILES
It's time to stop playing the role of general, and start being one. (Buffy runs off; Giles calls after her) This is the way wars are won.

He wants her to lead, to make the tough decisions, yet the second she does that, he knocks her down. NOT because he knows she is wrong.

So, i can honestly say, even though i would be scared, i know that i wouldn't turn on the one person who has continually proven herself, the one person i know doesnt make the decisions lightly, but does know what she is talking about.
 
S
Schillaci
Exactly. Well explained.
I was reading some of these posts and I have to agree completely with quite a few of them.

The potencials weren't with Buffy fighting battles within the seasons and they just came in the last season at the 10th episode...not leaving much room for getting to know what goes on around the scoobies.

More to the point of things, however...I was more upset with Xander, Willow and Giles.

Xander said the big speech about Buffy and how she has the biggest heart and the next minute he's letting Buffy get kicked out of the house with no protests...just sitting there with his patch. Of course, it must have been traumatizing for poor Xander but I didn't completely like his point of view.

Willow didn't say much out of that whole scene...she mainly just sat there letting the others bash and say stuff about Buffy's leadership.

Really, it got to me and came to me in the wrong perspective...
 
You have two slayers in front of you.
One of them you have known for a rather long time and you are living in her home. The other one shows up a few days ago and you have been told she has a very unstable history.
The point is that even though they've been living in Buffy's house for a while, and Faith just got there, they still know Faith better. They don't really know Buffy at all, but Faith is almost like one of them "“ of course they're gonna trust her and choose her over Buffy.

Personally I think Buffy acted a bit wrong here, but it's very understandable so to me neither Buffy or Faith is "better" at this point. I just wish they could work together, hm..
 
to me neither Buffy or Faith is "better" at this point. I just wish they could work together, hm..

There's another issue with leadership that irks me. Buffy and Faith are both slayers. We get the same package with both of them. How can we choose one over the other simply because one goes to a bar/club and the other one goes into a battle!

I like to think it's simply personality that seperates the two and not just two slayers existing at the same time. I don't see Buffy having this kind of turmoil with Kendra--at least not to the same extent.
It's personality...not co-existing slayers that make Faith and Buffy different (duh!)
 
There's another issue with leadership that irks me. Buffy and Faith are both slayers. We get the same package with both of them. How can we choose one over the other simply because one goes to a bar/club and the other one goes into a battle!
Well, also, Faith killed people, went bad, went to jail, etc. Not saying that should make them not trust her at this point "“ I believe she's changed "“ but it's not really as simple as "one goes to a bar/club and the other one goes into a battle" 😉

I like to think it's simply personality that seperates the two and not just two slayers existing at the same time. I don't see Buffy having this kind of turmoil with Kendra--at least not to the same extent.
It's personality...not co-existing slayers that make Faith and Buffy different (duh!)
Hehe yeah of course. But Buffy had problems with Kendra too, just not in the same way. Kendra was all about the slayer-thing. Faith is both another slayer and a person who expects to be a part of Buffy's life "“ which Buffy doesn't really appreciate. Plus the whole sexual attractio between Buffy and Faith, but I guess we can have different opinions on that 😛
 
ok well i think the potentials had a right to not follow Buffy as she had just led them into a battle which got their friends injured and even killed.yes Buffy is the leader and knows what it takes to win but at that point she had just got her butt kicked by some guy,and i think her pride was wounded and she wanted to go back there so she could prove to the potentials that she could beat him.yes Buffy was right about there being something that Caleb was protecting but her or the potentials were definately not ready to go back and fight again bacuase they would without a doubt failed the potentials werent ready for it and Buffy could barely make a dent in Claeb.the reason Buffy then went back there the next day and beat Caleb's butt is because of Spike,Spike gave her the courage to go back and fight her best with all the enthusiasm and passion that she used to have.

okay with the whole Xander,Willow and Giles not backing her up yes that was pretty lame and not really a best friend type of thing to do but after all it's Buffy who always says that she's the slayer and the mission is the only thing that matters,Buffy was willing to risk her best friends lives to beat the First,i think they had a right to disagree with her,after all Xander had just lost an eye he had every right in the world to not agree and not back Buffy up. the reason Willow wasnt saying much is because she was trying to stay in control of her power you could she when she was sitting there that she was trying to control herself and not let the magic take over her.

Buffy and Kendra got on better than Buffy and Faith because Faith was being evil half of the time,when Faith wasnt busy being evil they got on with eachother okay.you tell that when Faith came back in this series that she had changed a little bit,she wanted to do the right thing,she didnt want to be helping the First she wanted to help destroy it.yea Faith wanted to be apart of Buffy's life but thats only because she didnt have anyone else she's been living on her own all her life and to be honest i dont see why Buffy had a such problem with it and maybe thats part of the reason why Faith went bad because Buffy wouldnt let her be apart of her life and share her friends.
 
First off, from my experience in the military, I have to agree that, yes, someone has to give the orders, and, no, a militay unit (which is EXACTLY how the Slayer's little force is portrayed) can not de run as a democracy. It is the sad but real truth that the leader sometimes has to say, "Some of us have to die to achieve this objective," but at least Buffy was in the fight with them, not staying at home safe and comfortable the way Giles, Wood, Willow, Anya, and Dawn were. Faith was suggesting the consideration of a different tactic, certainly, but that was her job as the second in command. She tried to refuse leadership, but finally accepted it when Buffy's friends and family betrayed her, and it most certainly was a betrayal. If she hadn't done so, there would have chaos. As to what gave Buffy the "right" to assume leadership in the first place, I can only say, "Six years guarding the hellmouth, averting at least one apocalypse per year, while Faith, in her four years as a Slayer, has never seen tho first one, has spent almost a year on a coma, and another two years in prison.She has almost as little experience as the Potentials who want her to lead them." l
 
Y'see, I have a problem with this episode. I have two theories. Buffy's friends are right, and Buffy was acting a smudge crazy (not like crazy as in 5x20: "Spiral", I mean like, crazy crazy 😵), but that doesn't mean they can just ask her to leave her own house, or worse let her leave. Rona... ergh. I think I nearly threw myself at the telly screen at her comment after Buffy left ("Ding dong, the witch is dead...). To me, that was one of the evilest things any character has ever said on the show. This episode made me think different of all the Buffy characters for a while... and they were
not good thoughts to have when you're only 4 episodes away from the series finale. Kennedy and Anya especially got on my nerves. Anya, with her scary, never-before-seen seriousness of her speech, and the way she just acted like Buffy didn't care about anything. Kennedy got way too defensive of the potentials, and for some reason my heart sank when she yelled at Willow... Willow was my favorite person in that episode because she never said anything in that conversation. You would think she would say something, whether for or against Buffy, but she didn't say anything. I kinda admired that, because I probably would've disagreed with whatever she said anyway.

And Dawn. Dawn was the biggest brat. It kind of reminded me of Tara talking to her dad in 5x06: "Family", only I didn't despise Tara. Exactly the opposite. Dawn needs to think twice before she tells her older sister who happens to be a vampire slayer to leave.

I felt bad for Faith, though. After Buffy left, it was like all the responsibility was dumped on her. She doesn't know how to lead, or at least you wouldn't think she would, with the whole killing people thing and being a loner part of her life. Faith looks up to Buffy, but in this episode, Buffy was looking up to her, and so were all of her friends, and the potentials.
 
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