Empty Places

Keanoite said:
Like I said before, this was a military situation, it was their DUTY to fall in line. They didn't choose to be potentials, well Buffy didn't chose to be a slayer, it was thrust apon her and she just had to deal.
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Buffy had super powers, shes bound to have a little more confidence.

Like you said Buffy asked them to decide when she told them her plan, she gave them a chioce that she didn't get.
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But she gave a choice in Chosen not in Empty places.

By agreeing to go with Giles they were agreeing to everything that comes with being 'chosen'.
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No they were agreeing to be protected, the girls wern't expecting to have to fight, this comes across pretty clear. It's only once they get there that the gang decides they can use them.

I mean even the scoobies were given a choice in season 1, Buffy didn't want them to be helping cuz they could get hurt, but they choose to fight. But with the potentials they were being demanded to.
 
Yeah because they were potentials!!! Kennedy had been trained for years, like Kendra! It was their job to fight just like Buffy
 
Yes and it was wrong if it wasn't wrong Buffy wouldn't have given them a choice as the end. She realised she was wrong, everyone else should too.
 
Still, all Buffy was trying to die was to stop the first, there by protecting them. If they really wanted to be protected they couldn't sit and wait to die.
They had to go on the offense and if Buffy never did go back in without the girls, then alot more of them would have died in the end without the sycthe.
They were scared, who wouldn't be. But Giles brought them to Buffy for a reason, they should have trusted her even after making one bad call.
 
They needed a good plan. Buffy's plan was the same suicidal plan she had in Dirty Girls. They didn't like that plan. That's all it was. Then they started fighting a useless fight that all of them contributed in and not just the Scoobies. Buffy also lost her temper and made the situation worse. I understand everybody, even Buffy. But I don't see any betrayal. As the writers say, they were have a debate, everyone wanted to give an opinion, Buffy only wanted to her voice to be heard.

In the end, everybody learned from their mistakes, even Buffy.
 
If they didn't like the plan how come they all agreed to Faith essentially doing the same thing that Buffy proposed?
 
They didn't.

1. Buffy's plan was to go back to the vineyard. That's not where the weapons stash was.
2. Kennedy was opposed to Faith's plan, too - she thought they should do some recon first and see if they could get some information before jumping into anything, but Faith didn't listen any more than Buffy did. Turns out Kennedy was right, because Faith's plan led them right into a trap.

That's why a military group may have one leader, but that leader gets advice from lots of people.
 
S
sosa lola
Great post.
And anyway, I think it was partly because Buffy didn't say it. Besides, if they don't follow Faith what are they going to do? Kick her out and start going through leaders until they find one who's popular? I think they SHOULD have elected Cho-An.
 
Rowan Hawthorn said:
They didn't.

1. Buffy's plan was to go back to the vineyard. That's not where the weapons stash was.
2. Kennedy was opposed to Faith's plan, too - she thought they should do some recon first and see if they could get some information before jumping into anything, but Faith didn't listen any more than Buffy did. Turns out Kennedy was right, because Faith's plan led them right into a trap.

That's why a military group may have one leader, but that leader gets advice from lots of people.
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I never thought about this. They should have made Kennedy the leader, seriously, she spoke more sense than any of them.

I really like Kennedy when she's not being Willow's girlfriend, I thought she was the best out of all these Slayer Jr. She spoke her mind and was not afraid of anyone. Reminds me of high school Cordelia, who kicked mature Cordelia's ass in the interesting department.
 
OKAY!!!! LOL

I understand what everyone was saying and where they were coming from in this episode. BUT!............

Her friends had no right to go against her. I would atleast think they would have her backs. The potentials just hated Buffy because she was strict and basically right about everything. They voted FAith because she was just there, another Slayer who just happens to be lose so they thought that FAith would just go easy on them, considering her past.

Xander and Willow had no right!!
1. if not for Buffy both of them would of died in the First two episodes of season one!!!
2. She sacrificed herself for them countless time((Including Giles, Dawn, Anya))

Now the Dawn thing.........you may think its honourable but not I.
I was upset to see her own sister say i think you should leave.
1. Its Buffy house
2. Dawn wouldnt bealive if she wasnt made from Buffy

And Robin...he just sucks!!! lol......He just hated Spike........

But I was happy to know that my girl Faith didnt oppose Buffy.

The whole scene was okay but everyone went about it the wrong way. I dont think all the argueing was needed. And infact Buffy was right. They were hiding something and she went and got it!! And then saved the girls!!!


******ugh!!!!!!!!! I would of let them die for kicking me out!!!!! LOL.....j/p******
 
I think Robin backed Faith because she was another Slayer and hadn't chosen Spike over him. Notice how he so IMMEDIATELY gravitated toward her as soon as he realized who she was? He wanted a Slayer in charge, but when Faith came along, he saw her as an alternative Slayer to the one who (he felt) had betrayed him.

In short, he was being really immature.
 
I also have to really disagree that they "had no right" to question Buffy's actions. Last time they jumped into a fight without looking, at least two of them died in addition to the injured and the ones who'd already been killed. Buffy was correct in her assessment of where the important item(s) were, but even she really had nothing but intuition to go on, and she did a pretty poor job of explaining herself to a bunch of inexperienced fighters who had already taken losses without even making the other side flinch. Leader or not, if anybody expects me to put my ass on the line a second time in a situation like that, (s)he'd better have a better explanation than "because I say so." All of them, Buffy included, could have been more diplomatic about it, but tempers got the better of good sense all around. Robin Wood did a pretty good job of undermining Buffy, himself, and if there was anyone in the room who really was out of place and out of line, he was it.
 
Y'know, I'm rewatching season 7 at the moment (and, in general, it's very good) and this ep was where I left off last night.

I was CHEERING when they smacked down Buffy.

Sorry, but she was COMPLETELY out of control by this point. She's very hard to like by this point. She's willing to sacrifice anyone and everyone for the "mission"... except, of course, Spike, who she defends even when it's utterly irrational and detrimental to the group. (Giles' actions in LMPTM are pretty justified IMHO. Spike has been brainwashed to attack them whenever the First chooses to give the signal, won't continue with the attempt to deprogram him, and Buffy is happily content to let him keep wandering around with everyone, with no plan in mind for what to do). Then her great plan (which everyone objects to THE FIRST TIME, but she overrules them, and they trust her enough to go along with it despite their misgivings)... and gets several girls butchered and Xander with his eye ripped. Then she expects them to do it AGAIN, based on nothing but a hunch and with no actual plan to deal with the guy who did all the damage and took HER out with one punch!

I'd be telling her where to stick it, as well!

Watching it in a marathon, as well, has made it much clearer how far Buffy is losing it, and made it much less of a surprise and more inevitable that the gang ultimately do what they do.

I'm afraid I'm with the Scoobies on this, 100%.
 
See I watched it all at once to and I hated everyone for turning on her! Those bastards 😛 but that's my opinion. I think she was just trying to control things, which is what she should have done, as the leader! They should have followed her to hell and back, dieing if need be, or they could leave. The whole point of them being there was for Buffy to protect them, and if she thought that going there was the best course of action then they should have followed her, no matter what happened, no matter who died, no matter anything! Even Xander and Willow turned :s so not cool. Giles wasn't really a shocker they seemed to be hating on each other all season. But her closest friends.. infront of everyone, not cool at all and way to disrespectful! I'm glad Buffy left! Would have been better if she never came back and watched them all die 😛 okay maybe not, but they were out of line! ^_^ Atleast I think they were
 
I'm sorry, but that's crazy. "No matter who died or anything".

I don't think so. Buffy is not God. She has to be accountable for her actions, and her actions by this point have been a complete disaster yet she doesn't even seem to notice. I'd have told her to get bent as well! 😉
 
But she was right, she thought she was right, and guess what.. if she never went back they wouldn't have got the scythe and would have lost the war and everyone would have died.

So yes, because Buffy was right, I think the others were foolish. I think Spike who came back and defender her said it perfectly.

"You know, I think I do. Rupert. You used to be the big man, didn't you? The teacher, all full of wisdom. Now she's surpassed you and you can't handle it. She has saved your lives again and again. She has died for you. And this is how you thank her?"
 
She was utterly out of line expecting everyone to follow her with no plan except the same plan that had already gotten people killed, and not even thinking they had any right to question her. Sorry, but she's lost the plot entirely by this point!
 
They can question her all they want they still have to follow her. They decided they would rather betray her, all of them. You know how crappy Buffy must have felt after that. All she was trying to do was save as many lives as possible, she truly thought it was the right course of action, it infact was. They failed her.
 
Nonsense. She failed them. Nobody except a brainless automaton follows a leader who won't be questioned, won't accept advice and insists on following a reckless course of action that has ALREADY failed, with fatal consequences.

Buffy is the one at fault here.
 
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