Entropy

[palabravampiress]

I just rewatched this ep and I didn't see a thread for it, so I thought I'd start one.

I love this episode! That probably has to do with the fact that it's so Anya-centric, since I really like Anya. But Tara and Willow were all kinds of cute, too. I loved the scenes in which Anya went around trying to get everyone to wish all kinds of hurt on Xander. She was so funny! I liked Dawn in this episode, too. And Buffy's reaction to the lawn gnome was hilarious. "What the hell is that?... If I'd have know that was there, I would have crawled up out of the grave sooner!" I laughed a lot up until the Spike/Anya sex, and even then, Willow covering Dawn's eyes was funny. And the trio's reactions were hilarious. Those Spike/Anya scenes brought down the tone and made me sad, but that was fitting, too, because the characters were sad. Who hasn't felt that way? And Xander being put in his place when he got all indignant about the whole thing -- that was priceless. Everyone was just so... classically themselves. Does that make sense? It's like Anya was classic Anya and Dawn was classic Dawn and etc. etc.

Oh, and I was glad that the truth came out. I forgot about that. It was about time. It wasn't fair for Buffy to go around being all chipper just because she escaped the consequences that she had feared (her friends finding out). Dawn and Willow were pretty understanding. So was Tara, who already knew. Anya obviously had no room to talk. So the only person who was upset with her was Xander, and Xander was nowhere near rational. Besides, his issue was mostly with Anya. The Buffy thing was just the straw that broke the camel's back. I think it was good for Buffy to face the consequences and realize that she had been judging herself all along, not the others (with the exception of Xander and, really, he's not Mr. moral authority right now). I don't think the others' judgments were as harsh as she thought they'd be.

What did everyone else think about the episode?

 

[Kean]

You pretty much said it all! it was a fantastic episode. I felt bad for Spike and Anya but like you said, that was the point.

I can understand Xander's reaction though. For years he had a thing for Buffy but she didn't want to know, she loved Angel. He could never understand her attraction to him and then he sees the love of his life boinking the undead and finds out Buffy had been boinking him too!!! I think he was sorta in the same boat as Riley in season 5, trying to understand the hold thses vamps had over his women, and why he wasn't good enough (I know Anya was his own doing but I still think this would havebeen his thought process).

 

[sosa lola]

It was weird seeing Anya trying to get Xander's friends to wish him killed, it was played for comedy so it lessened how serious and scary the whole thing was. I mean, she actually wished that Xander never existed. And when she did it, she was sure that it'll come true. She wished some awful things. Contrast this with Xander's rage and him going to kill Spike which was played tragically. Both events were scary and wrong, but one was played for comedy and the other was played for tragedy. It's amazing how the tone of an episode can change how we see situations, even similar ones.

 

[palabravampiress]

It was weird seeing Anya trying to get Xander's friends to wish him killed, it was played for comedy so it lessened how serious and scary the whole thing was. I mean, she actually wished that Xander never existed. And when she did it, she was sure that it'll come true. She wished some awful things. Contrast this with Xander's rage and him going to kill Spike which was played tragically. Both events were scary and wrong, but one was played for comedy and the other was played for tragedy. It's amazing how the tone of an episode can change how we see situations, even similar ones.

First of all, I thought they addressd this later with the frat house incident. Anya seemed to realize then how wrong it was once she actually got blood on her hands again. Personally, I didn't have a problem with Anya wanting to rip Xander's guts out, but I guess that was partly because I knew she wouldn't go through with it. Also, I thought Xander deserved more than just metaphor pain. For what he did in Hell's Bells, the boy at least deserved a beating.

That said, the tone thing happens all the time on Buffy. Killing, sexual assault, and any number of bad things are often dealt with lightly in a show that deals with a new big bad in every episode (or arc, as the case may be). If it's not the number 1 issue in the story, then it is usually glossed over to some extent.

 

[XDruX]

I have also rewatched this episode just a few hours ago, and I also found it good.
I liked the way Buffy asked Dawn what she stole from every shop.
Then of course, the Willow/Tara discussion. So cute.
But I wonder, does aynone know what happened with the two pancakes Buffy put in Dawn's plate?
And I have another question: was Xander's reaction really ok? I'd like to answer "yes, of course, she did something horrible. Have sex with THE person that Xander hates". But then, I thought, Xander did something horrible to Anya. I mean, she used to hate men. Nevertheless she accepted to marry him. It's normal that, after he left her at the altar she bacame kind of... really really really angry. I do not say that what she did was fair but still I do not think that Xander should have been so mad at her. They should have both accepted their fault and try to talk. I mean, it's not because Xander said : "Anya, I'm sorry" that she would forgive him everything. PLUS, when Anya asked him if he still wanted to marry her, he didn't answer. And that was just so...

Well, so, what do you think?

 

[sosa lola]

First of all, I thought they addressd this later with the frat house incident. Anya seemed to realize then how wrong it was once she actually got blood on her hands again.

Which is a good thing, because Anya was always a character who was treated as a comic person, a bit too cartoonish, but when you seriously look at her character and her punishments toward men, she'd come out as an awful person, especially that she never felt guilt over what she had done. One could argue that Anya thought the men deserved what she had done to them, therefore she won't feel guilty for ruining their lives.

However, her past came to bite her in the ass, when one of her victims came to her wedding and ruined it, causing Anya pain. Seriously, if Anya's victim had never came to her wedding and fooled Xander with visions of his worst nightmare, Anya would have been married to Xander.

Personally, I didn't have a problem with Anya wanting to rip Xander's guts out, but I guess that was partly because I knew she wouldn't go through with it.

She went through with it. She had wished he never existed and that his guts were ripped off or whatever. She went to his friends trying to fool them into wishing Xander to be killed. She did all that knowing that they would come true, resulting to a dead Xander or a Xander that never existed.

I understand Anya's pain, but she could have punished him in a murderless way. Cordelia had punished Xander by spreading his family issues to everybody in school/as well as making him feel more worthless than he did which was effective and hurt him just fine. Anya could have done something like that instead of being a murderer.

Also, I thought Xander deserved more than just metaphor pain. For what he did in Hell's Bells, the boy at least deserved a beating.

Yes, but not murder.

was Xander's reaction really ok?

No, it wasn't. He seriously needs to go to the same anger management class that Anya should be signed in. :lmao:

Seriously, Xander overreacted, and not in a good way at all. He lashed out unfairly at Anya, and was beating someone who couldn't fight back. That was terrible.

 

[palabravampiress]

No, Anya didn't go through with it. At the end, Spike started to say, "You know what I wish?" And Anya cut him off, saying, "Don't." When there was a chance that she might actually convince someone to wish harm on him, she stopped.

And as for Xander, well, no, what he did was not okay. At that point, he had forfeited his right to have an opinion about Anya's sex life. I mean, he left her at the altar. That's about as bad as a breakup can get. She was free to have sex with whomever she chose. He had no right to interfere. If he wanted her to "cleave only to him" or however that goes, well, then he should have married her. That part is covered in those vows he couldn't bring himself to say.

I mean, going after your ex's lover with an axe in a fit of jealous rage is wrong. There's just no way to make that right. Add the whole "he can't fight back" thing, and, well, that's even more wrong.

To be fair, I do feel for Xander. Seeing the person you love have sex with someone else - especially with someone you loathe - is sort of an emotional jolt.

Neither of these actions - leaving at the altar or having sex with someone else - warrant murder. But since no one was actually murdered, I'm ok with the way things played out.

 

[Spirit_Of_Fred]

first, i just want to say i love this episode! palabravampiress pretty much summed up why in her first post, so i wont bother to just repeat it and bore all of you 🙂.

And as for Xander, well, no, what he did was not okay. At that point, he had forfeited his right to have an opinion about Anya's sex life. I mean, he left her at the altar. That's about as bad as a breakup can get. She was free to have sex with whomever she chose. He had no right to interfere. If he wanted her to "cleave only to him" or however that goes, well, then he should have married her. That part is covered in those vows he couldn't bring himself to say.

i was pretty much going to say the same thing. i mean, she could go off and, i dont know, marry buffy! still, he shouldnt be able to tell her she cant do it one way or another. he left her at the altar, they're not together, and it is none of his business what romantic relationships she has! plus, when he said, "When this is your solution to our problems. I hurt you, and you hit me back?", i got kind of frustrated with him. she didnt do that to hurt him! she did it because she was in a lot of pain and drunk. where does he get off acting like her trying to move on is only to punish him?

but, as palabravampiress said, i do feel bad for xander. i love his character, and this was a hard thing for him to deal with, so it makes sense that his emotions would get in his way. i dont hate him for this, but he was way out of line.

and while we're on that, same with buffy! she came right out and said, spike, move on, and lo and behold, he did. her response to this, however, was "didn't take long, did it?". i mean, come on. how fair is it to blame him for doing what she asked him to do?

 

[sosa lola]

No, Anya didn't go through with it. At the end, Spike started to say, "You know what I wish?" And Anya cut him off, saying, "Don't." When there was a chance that she might actually convince someone to wish harm on him, she stopped.

I didn't mean this time. I meant earlier in the episode. Anya did go through with it when she wished Xander never was born. When she did that, she thought the wish was going to work, she didn't know that vengeance demons can't grant their own wishes. So that was Anya going through with it. As well as her going to Xander's friends of all people and asking them to wish their friend dead, not considering the consequences of her actions or the pain she was going to inflect on those innocent friends.

And as for Xander, well, no, what he did was not okay. At that point, he had forfeited his right to have an opinion about Anya's sex life.

I agree.

To be fair, I do feel for Xander. Seeing the person you love have sex with someone else - especially with someone you loathe - is sort of an emotional jolt.

Doesn't excuse his foolishness. What he had done was wrong.

Neither of these actions - leaving at the altar or having sex with someone else - warrant murder.

I never said they were. I was talking about this scene:

ANYA: (demon voice) And I wish you were never born!
XANDER: I know this is all coming out wrong.

Anya morphs back into human face, frowning in confusion. She turns around to look at Xander.

ANYA: (angry) I wish you felt the pain of a thousand searing pokers boiling your heart in its own juices!
XANDER: I know, honey. I totally deserve that.
ANYA: (confused) I ... I wish you had tentacles where your beady eyes should be! I wish your intestines were tied in knots and ripped apart inside your lousy gut!
XANDER: (sadly) They are.
ANYA: (hopeful) Really? (Xander nods) Right now? Does it hurt?
XANDER: God, yes. It hurts so bad it's killing me. Anya ... I love you, I want to make this work.
ANYA: (annoyed) Those are metaphor intestines! You're not in any real pain! What's wrong with me?
XANDER: No, honey, it's not you, it's me. That-
ANYA: (frustrated) Ohh!!


Anya clearly thought that she could murder Xander like that, and if a vengeance demon was able to do so, then Anya's way of punishing Xander is way worse than him leaving her at the altar. That's what I meant by Anya's awful reaction paralleling with Xander's in the end of the episode.

when he said, "When this is your solution to our problems. I hurt you, and you hit me back?", i got kind of frustrated with him. she didnt do that to hurt him! she did it because she was in a lot of pain and drunk. where does he get off acting like her trying to move on is only to punish him?

I guess it was because he assumed she was doing it to punish him, which is not surprising, especially when thinking that Anya was going to punish him in a worse way earlier in the episode. However, in Seeing Red, after Xander cooled down, he would admit to Buffy that he understood why Anya had done what she had done with Spike.

 

[LittleMissLikesToFight]

the anya/spike thing always threw me. i dunno. the way it happened and all... i still have a hard time accepting it. i can't really explain why, i just do.

 

[GATEGOD]

the anya/spike thing always threw me. i dunno. the way it happened and all... i still have a hard time accepting it. i can't really explain why, i just do.

probably because the writers did that so everyone would feel for Xander and not hate him for what he had already done to ANYA!!

 

[sosa lola]

I don't think that was the writers' intentions. I actually felt sorrier for Xander in Hell's Bells than in Entropy. That scene was clearly about the writers wanting Spike and Anya to be sympathized with more than Buffy and Xander.

 

[Tranquillity]

I find the Spike/Anya scene very touching and it never fails to make me cry. I mean, you've got these two 'people' who are clearly in love with other people who don't want them, who have rejected them - and they reach out to each other for comfort, understanding, solace - not because it was planned but because they just happened to be in the same space as each other and a bottle of whiskey - it's so real and emotional. Yeah, my sympathies are certainly with Spike and Anya.

 

[Kana]

To be honest I think like it's been said, neither of them were justified for their actions. I absolutely agree with the fact that Anya wasn't able to grant her wish doesn't change her intentions. Xander also didn't have the right the judge Anya like that. Both were hurt both were wrong, both can be understood.