Episode 5: Selfless

[OFAWB]

I literally began to fall asleep while watching "Selfless" last night. The only part I enjoyed was jumping each time that disgusting spider showed itself. (I'm deathly afraid of spiders.)

I've tried to like Anya. I've tried to sympathize with her. But it's impossible for me. She can have a dozen flashback scenes per episode, and it won't change the way I feel about her. That cheesy musical segment with her in a wedding dress was an attempt to garner sympathy for Anya that didn't work on me. All I did was roll my eyes at it, especially when the lyrics revealed that her feelings for Xander were, at their core, vapid.

She's a shallow, heartless, money-obsessed vengeance demon who has harmed many people, and there were plenty of signs that Xander wasn't ready to marry her and only proposed to her because he felt he should. If you have to beg a man to go through with wedding plans (as Anya did with Xander in Season 6), he probably isn't someone you should be trying to marry. (Relatively) innocent people have no business dying violent deaths just because your boyfriend left you. Cry me a river, Anya. Cry me a river as wide and as deep as the Nile, the Mississippi, or the Saint Lawrence. It won't make me care about your suffering one bit.

And since "a vengeance demon has to die" in punishment for Anya's actions, Halfrek/Cecily is disposed of? Pathetic.

This show ended with Season 6, as far as I'm concerned. It just isn't "Buffy" to me anymore without Giles, Tara, soulless Spike, or even Angel. I won't be surprised if I never finish it.

You all wanted me to watch Season 7. Well, I'm watching it. And it's worthless, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[white avenger]

Sorry that you don't like Season 7, especially since I recommended it. But it does have its moments. You just haven't reached any of them yet. Just wait till Anya busts in the bathroom and catches Andrew... Nahhh, you probably ought to skip that one. Anyhow, hang on in, hopefully, you'll find it more interesting later on.

 

[Blaze]

It's a shame that you don't like it, personally I love s7. It has some of the strongest episodes, the overall storyline might not be the best, but as far as episode goes, I think many of them were very strong. To state a few

Lessons, Help, Him, Conversation with Dead People, Potential, Get it done, etc.

Things I like about s7:

-Dawn becomes pretty kick ass
-I like Spike with a soul, and Spuffy is actually pretty decent in this s7
-Giles comes back, he doesn't have the role I want him to have but at least he's back
-Chosen is an awesome finale, maybe it's not the most logical, but it'll always be the most satisfactory and memorable series finale I've seen.
-It has some really good comical episodes, as well as some really serious ones, it's a bit better balance than s6
-Too many new characters are introduced for a final season, but some of those characters were decent, and I liked them fine.
-Faith comes back
-Caleb is a really fun bad guy

I say give it one more chance, the next two episode that you're about to watch are really good. I just watched Him last night and it made me laugh a few times. And Convo with dead people is worth a watch, even if it's just to see Alyson's performance in it.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

I have to agree about Anya - she has racked up more carnage and torture than Darla, Angel, Drusilla and Spike combined. And one guy came back to exact revenge and although I am not a fan of Xander, his parachute opened just in time.

Season 7 is still worth watching in its entirety, although several individual episodes are probably in the "disposable" category. Once you get through it, you will at least be able to say you did it and the final episode, "Chosen" is actually quite good as long as you don't analyze it too critically.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I loved Selfless.

I liked that we got more information on Anya, though I disagree it was made to make you feel sympathy for the character, I didn't get that impression from the episode. The show for me has always been unapologetic in regards to Anya, so I dont think they were trying to make you feel sorry for you, but they were showing us how far she'd come and ho much she'd changed, and that continues throughout the series.

 

[Blaze]

I'd also like to add that even though Anya isn't my favorite by any means, her development in s7 is great. By the end of the season, you can actually see that she finally changed. Throughout her run from s4-6, she's a pretty fun character but I find she always kept that vengeance demon attitude. And although s7 has a rough start for her, and you are somewhat made to dislike her, her final few episodes are fantastic. I absolutely love the talk she has with Andrew towards the end, involving her saying how she's grown to like humans,

Spoiler

and ultimately dies for them. I think that her sacrifice was beautiful, because ultimately she had no reasons at all to stick by the Scoobie, and really did do it for selfless reasons

(I put this in spoiler brackets because I know OFAWB hasn't finished the series, this is a spoiler for Chosen).

 

[OFAWB]

I love being the odd one out! And, big surprise, BEG disagrees with me. 😛 Really, I have no interest in continuing.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I love being the odd one out! And, big surprise, BEG disagrees with me. 😛 Really, I have no interest in continuing.

I know right! You Spike fans tend to get a lot of things wrong... 😉

It seems odd to give up on the series, honestly I think that even to be involved in debates about the show you have to have watched the 7 series, if you haven't seen them you dont have the full view of the show.

 

[OFAWB]

Maybe it's odd to someone who enjoyed the final season. I think it's awful, and I don't usually watch TV that makes me miserable. For things to end the way they're ending makes the entire show seem like a waste.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

Might I just say, as a fellow Spike fan, I recommend watching the season. 🙂 No pressure or anything but there is some really great stuff in that season that has to do with his beginnings as a newly-souled being. I think if you're interested to see where he's going as a character, you'd want to see a lot of season 7 and then Angel season 5.

Honestly, every other character is a bit weak in this season, (except maybe Faith). But I still recommend watching it!

 

[EVIL UU]

OK, so Anya is a bit more complicated than people think.

In our modern western society vengeance is condemned. Why? Because we have criminal justice system and because one brilliant dude named Jesus came up with the idea that vengeance is just silly. Basically, law and religion. Now, in the society in which Anya was born vengeance was anything but condemned. Vengeance had its own deity ( religion ) and was considered to be an act of honor. Why? Because in a society without a justice system ( law ) the fear of inevitable vengeance was the only thing that kept that society from falling apart. In our society vengeance is an immoral act of chaos, in Anya's society it was a moral act of order. Thus, Anya is not evil, not according to the moral rules of her society. When Anya comes to Sunnydale she has to learn the new rules. Her development takes time, in the final episodes of season 6 she tries to stop vengeance and in "Selfless", for the first time ever, she actually feels bad for exacting it. Anya is a character that gradually changes her entire moral system, without the soul nonsense or an inelegant redemption arc. She is not shallow, she is a character with a ridiculous amount of depth hidden under comic relief exterior.
[MENTION=12533]OFAWB[/MENTION]

And it's worthless, as far as I'm concerned.

Yeah, season 7 is not exactly full of quality. Still, it has some good shit. Personally, to me, feels-wise, season 6 is boredom and apathy, season 7 is blood boiling rage. Yes, it's terrible but hey, at least it's not boring.

 

[Robb Stark]

OK, so Anya is a bit more complicated than people think.

In our modern western society vengeance is condemned. Why? Because we have criminal justice system and because one brilliant dude named Jesus came up with the idea that vengeance is just silly. Basically, law and religion. Now, in the society in which Anya was born vengeance was anything but condemned. Vengeance had its own deity ( religion ) and was considered to be an act of honor. Why? Because in a society without a justice system ( law ) the fear of inevitable vengeance was the only thing that kept that society from falling apart. In our society vengeance is an immoral act of chaos, in Anya's society it was a moral act of order. Thus, Anya is not evil, not according to the moral rules of her society. When Anya comes to Sunnydale she has to learn the new rules. Her development takes time, in the final episodes of season 6 she tries to stop vengeance and in "Selfless", for the first time ever, she actually feels bad for exacting it. Anya is a character that gradually changes her entire moral system, without the soul nonsense or an inelegant redemption arc. She is not shallow, she is a character with a ridiculous amount of depth hidden under comic relief exterior.
[MENTION=12533]OFAWB[/MENTION]


Yeah, season 7 is not exactly full of quality. Still, it has some good shit. Personally, to me, feels-wise, season 6 is boredom and apathy, season 7 is blood boiling rage. Yes, it's terrible but hey, at least it's not boring.

I don't know if that's an accurate analysis though. Anya may have started out that way, but she lived for over a thousand years. A thousand years of visiting and experiencing every culture humanity had to offer. She goes through every time period you could think of. There's no excuse for her to be so stupidly ignorant by S3 of BTVS. Hell, she's incredibly aware of her actions and what they mean in "The Wish". She just doesn't care.

I'm not saying Anya doesn't grow, but the growth isn't nearly as big as her apologists make it out to be. Expecting someone not to be a murderer isn't a big achievement. And her willing decision to go back to a vengeance demon life, knowing full well what that means and entails, and no matter how bad she feels about it later, speaks volumes about her, just as much as the good she does later on does.

 

[Taake]

Maybe it's odd to someone who enjoyed the final season. I think it's awful, and I don't usually watch TV that makes me miserable. For things to end the way they're ending makes the entire show seem like a waste.

I'm not a big fan of season 7 (and I doubt I'll ever re-watch it... well maybe I will but I'm in no hurry to at least) but I would definitely recommend watching it. It wraps up the series and I don enjoy the last couple of eps at least so if you think it's really bad I suppose you could skip ahead and see what's going on further on 🙂

 

[Blaze]

Maybe it's odd to someone who enjoyed the final season. I think it's awful, and I don't usually watch TV that makes me miserable. For things to end the way they're ending makes the entire show seem like a waste.

I'm just curious here, what makes it so awful/how does it make you miserable (this is a genuine question, I'm not disagreeing with your opinion).

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=11975]Robb Stark[/MENTION]

I don't know if that's an accurate analysis though. Anya may have started out that way, but she lived for over a thousand years. A thousand years of visiting and experiencing every culture humanity had to offer.

Anya hanged out with her demon family. Her interactions with the human world were limited and always about vengeance. Her conversation with Halfrek in "Sefless" reveals Anya's complete lack of interest in human culture or anything that's not vengeance, really.

There's no excuse for her to be so stupidly ignorant by S3 of BTVS. Hell, she's incredibly aware of her actions and what they mean in "The Wish"(...)Expecting someone not to be a murderer isn't a big achievement.

That's the thing - she's not a murderer, not according to her own moral code. Killing is wrong and every healthy human being is aware of that, Anya is aware of it too, even as a vengeance demon. However, the society does not always condemn killing and view it as immoral. Killing an enemy soldier during a war is not condemned, it's glorified in our culture just like exacting vengeance was glorified, not condemned, in Anya's culture. Anya doesn't kill for fun, like vampires, she kills out of a sense of duty, kinda like Buffy.

And her willing decision to go back to a vengeance demon life, knowing full well what that means and entails, and no matter how bad she feels about it later, speaks volumes about her, just as much as the good she does later on does.

This, I agree with. Nothing she does after "Hell's Bells" can be excused. Nasty demon, would not share a beer with her.

 

[JaseyRae]

I feel like I'm the only one here who loved all the characters, even the villains and the actors who played them on the show (except for the "potentials", annoying wannabees if you ask me). And I mean everyone. But yeah, I hated the seventh season too, I'm in the middle of it and I feel like I'll never be able to continue it, I'm disappointed. Season 6 was my fav along with 3rd one and 7 kinda ruined it (I haven't read the comics yet, but I can only imagine how horrible they are). But I, unlike you, like Anya, it's hard for me to hate anyone (excluding the potentials). What I would change about 7 is:
1. No potentials, hate that idea
2. The scoobies (along with Faith, I'm not certain she is one of them) defeat the first together (there's nothing they can't face)
3. Tara comes back like Joss planned it, via Buffy's wish and Willow defeats "the evil magic" inside her with Tara's help.
I think Tara's character could have grown so much more and have had a nice arc, no matter how much she grew since 4, she still had a lot to work through and she was just... cut out of it. I read the replies and it feels weird to see people like 7 more than 6. But, I respect everyone's opinion. I'm an overly emotional person, so I guess that's why I liked six so much, it wasn't about the villains, it was mor about them fighting their inner demons (Buffy's depression, Dawn's lonely and a kleptomaniac, Willow dealing with addiction, Tara with an abusive relationship, etc.. OFAWB I feel like you and I'd make really good friends. I loved every season and I do mean EVERY 'cept seventh. I wanna finish it tho and I feel you should too.

 

[white avenger]

OK, so Anya is a bit more complicated than people think.

In our modern western society vengeance is condemned. Why? Because we have criminal justice system and because one brilliant dude named Jesus came up with the idea that vengeance is just silly. Basically, law and religion.

But is it, really? We say that it is, but look at what we call entertainment. There's probably not a single movie theater in this country where you can't go and see a movie about somebody exacting vengeance on somebody else, and the criminal justice system be damned, every single day. That's out entertainment, and we cheer the guy who does it. Yes, that's all make believe, but we pay to see it, and cheer when the good guy finally gives the bad guy all that's coming to him, and in as violent and graphic a way as possible.

John Wayne, Clint Eastwood, Steven Segal, Chuck Norris, Liam Neeson, and the list goes on and on, they've all made their fortunes exacting vengeance on someone. Certainly, that's all fantasy, but it's fantasy that catches the attention of the audience, or they wouldn't be paying their hard earned dollars to see it.

And it's not JUST fantasy. How many people do you know who have no faith whatsoever in our criminal justice system? How many times do you know of someone who has been beaten or even killed, and hear the comment, "Well, the son of a b**ch had it coming," or,"If I was on that guy's jury, I'd vote to let him go and give him a medal."

Vengeance is condemned by society as a body, but a large number of individuals, probably the majority, still have no problem with someone taking appropriate revenge when the opportunity presents itself. In the South, when I was growing up, there was a saying. "Did he need killing? Did the right one (meaning the one who had been wronged) do the killing?" If the answer to both questions was yes, then no real crime had been committed, and there was no one to be punished.

Anya wasn't my favorite character in the Buffyverse, but it wasn't because she had exacted vengeance on people who had offended others. Remember, "Some of us prefer the term, Justice Demon"? If I was going to condemn one character in the Buffyverse, I would probably have to condemn all of them if I had any intention of being impartial, because everybody, from Andrew to Xander, including Buffy, has wrought their own style of vengeance at one time or another.

 

[Wesley Pryce]

I love Anya and "Selfless" is one of my favorite eps in the entire series. The point of the ep is there in the title,SELFLESS,she never knew who she was and was always adapting her beliefs and opinions to fit whatever someone else wanted her to be..a lot like Mr. Spike actually

---------- Post added at 06:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:06 PM ----------

A spinoff With Spike,Anya and Illyria would've ruled because they all share a common theme,Identity issues.🙂

 

[OFAWB]

Thank you, people, for encouraging me to continue. I had a fever yesterday and couldn't go to work, so between naps I ended up watching the next five episodes. "Him" was not bad, "Conversations With Dead People" and "Sleeper" were actually excellent, and "Never Leave Me" and "Bring On The Night" were, if not as good as episodes 6 and 7, much better (in my opinion) than "Selfless" was.

I loved seeing Spike on the prowl again, even if the First was forcing him to do it. Buffy's speech at the end of episode 10 was very good. I jumped when I saw that apparition of empty-eyed Joyce being attacked on the couch. The potentials are annoying, and I'm still not sure how they fit within the Slayer mythology.

[MENTION=8404]Blaze[/MENTION]: I can tell you how I feel about the beginning of Season 7 in a private message.

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=6758]white avenger[/MENTION]

But is it, really? We say that it is, but look at what we call entertainment. There's probably not a single movie theater in this country where you can't go and see a movie about somebody exacting vengeance on somebody else, and the criminal justice system be damned, every single day. That's out entertainment, and we cheer the guy who does it. Yes, that's all make believe, but we pay to see it, and cheer when the good guy finally gives the bad guy all that's coming to him, and in as violent and graphic a way as possible. John Wayne, Clint Eastwood, Steven Segal, Chuck Norris, Liam Neeson, and the list goes on and on, they've all made their fortunes exacting vengeance on someone. Certainly, that's all fantasy, but it's fantasy that catches the attention of the audience, or they wouldn't be paying their hard earned dollars to see it.

Indeed, but for every film or an episode of a TV show in which the victims or their loved ones exact vengeance there are tens of those in which they do not and choose the criminal justice system instead. Take procedural dramas as an example - CSI and NCIS are the most popular TV shows in the US.

And it's not JUST fantasy. How many people do you know who have no faith whatsoever in our criminal justice system? How many times do you know of someone who has been beaten or even killed, and hear the comment, "Well, the son of a b**ch had it coming," or,"If I was on that guy's jury, I'd vote to let him go and give him a medal." Vengeance is condemned by society as a body, but a large number of individuals, probably the majority, still have no problem with someone taking appropriate revenge when the opportunity presents itself. In the South, when I was growing up, there was a saying. "Did he need killing? Did the right one (meaning the one who had been wronged) do the killing?" If the answer to both questions was yes, then no real crime had been committed, and there was no one to be punished.

All true, but the difference is that in modern western societies private vengeance is an exception, often pushed into the realm of fantasy, in Anya's society it was the rule when reconciliation was not achieved. In 21st century the majority of people, regardless of what they think about the criminal justice system, still choose it. It's convenient, for one, it's also safe and mandatory.

Remember, "Some of us prefer the term, Justice Demon"?

Yeah, it's interesting because vengeance demons seem to be inspired by Erinyes from Greek mythology and they were just that, goddesses of justice.

Anya wasn't my favorite character in the Buffyverse, but it wasn't because she had exacted vengeance on people who had offended others. Remember, "Some of us prefer the term, Justice Demon"? If I was going to condemn one character in the Buffyverse, I would probably have to condemn all of them if I had any intention of being impartial, because everybody, from Andrew to Xander, including Buffy, has wrought their own style of vengeance at one time or another.

Anya's not my favorite either, but she's not just a funny mass murderer, in my opinion she is more like Buffy than she is like Angelus.