"Equal Rights", Feminism, etc

[Randy Giles]

I live in Memphis, TN, so I often hear about equal rights, mostly when it comes to blacks and whites, but also with men vs women, etc. Also, I've met several feminists, and, while I hate to make such broad generalizations, based on nearly everyone I've met who are very outspoken about "equal" rights, I can't help but conclude that most of these people don't want equal rights, they want special treatment.

Of course, I DO know that not everyone is like that. Just the people I've personally met, and then of course you hear stories.

But, I want to know what you think...do you think in this world that one day everyone truly will be equal? Do you think the majority of people claiming to want equal rights just really want to be the group with the most power?

Personally, I think that "minorities" already have more power than they claim, after all, say you have an employer is a white male, and he's interviewing two people for a job. One is a white man, the other a woman of another race. If the man gets the job, the women could claim the employer is prejudice, even if the man was more suited for the job. It's happened to people I know, and I don't think it's fair, at all.

And as far as feminism goes, I personally think women SHOULD be equal to men, however I don't think they should have MORE power than men, and I personally despise it when women are so hardcore feminists they get angry if a man so much as holds a door for them. Get over yourself.

Sorry if this post doesn't make too much sense, it's past midnight, I haven't slept, and I just took three caffeine pills...

 

[doppelgänger2]

Yeah, I'm sorry but that post didn't make mush sense to me. I don't mean to be hars, but you need to get over yourself. Correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm sorry if I am), but I figure you're one of those white males. There is nothing that I hate more, as a woman of color, than when a white man tells me how much power I really have. Studies here in Sweden show that young women of color are one of the minority groups that are most discriminated against when it comes to employment. I'm at the university now and I'll get my BA soon. But I'm so friggin afraid that, despite my fancy degree, I'm spend my life cleaning toilets. Cause that's basically the best job you can get as a women of color here in Sweden, if you're not DAAAMN lucky. So, seriously, you think the "power" I get by screaming "OMG discrimination!" every time I don't get employed despite the fact that I am damn qualified is going to do me any good?

And as for women versus men... Yeah, dude seriously. There are like 1000 different feminist discourses and basically none of them are about women having more power. There was this very interesting study done here in Sweden about ten years ago in a school. First they messured how much time the boys talked in class and how much time the girls talked (Swedish schools are very liberal, so there's alot of open dialogue going on in class). When the boys talked something like 70% of the time, they understood it like boys and girls hade equal talk-time in class. When the researchers made sure that the girls had 50% of the talk-time, the boys understood it as the girls had much more talk-time than them. And that's exactly how it is in society. Men experience women as having more power than them (because they are so used to having the majority of the power) when really, it's more of a 50%-50% situation.

Why do you despise when a women doesn't want a man to open a door for him? Imagine this; for hundereds of years, people have opened doors for people with the screen name Randy Giles because those with the screen name Randy Giles were considered week, dumb and incompetent. Your screen name is Randy Giles and you don't consider yourself as, or wanna be treated as, week, dumb and incompetent. So, you're walking into a store and this random dude holds up the door for you. And you think, I don't wanna be treated like week, dumb and incompetent! I can open my own damn door! And you get a little cranky at the dude. I believe alot of women think like that. I personally don't because I think it's a nice gesture to open doors for ANYONE, especially old people. I open up doors for everyone. It's nice.

 

[Randy Giles]

Firstly, I don't live in Sweden.

Secondly, it's not like men only hold doors for women. They sometimes hold them open for other men too, just to be polite. It's ridiculous, in my opinion, for a woman to just assume that a male is holding a door for her because he considers her WEAK. I know very few males, in fact, who consider women to be inferior. But anyway, how am I *supposed* to react if some woman goes off on me because I'm trying to be polite?

Also, nearly all of my co-workers are black, some of them are female, and none of them have any less opportunity than the guys. At the hospital I work at, over HALF the bosses are women, and half of those women are black. I think that, in at least a good portion of the U.S., women have just as many chances as men to get far in a career, because I've seen nothing to suggest otherwise, and in fact I know more powerful women than men.

And also, all three black girls I was friends with in high school have already found good jobs, two of them as interns and their status has black females has not hindered them one little bit.

 

[Randy Giles]

Oh, I'd also like point out that in my original post I said that my opinions were only based on my PERSONAL experiences, and people I've met, and that I also asked for other people's opinions because obviously people have had different experiences...if you took offense to it, none was meant.

 

[Hello Cutie]

Well, I don't know if things could ever be truely equal, because its human nature to squash and restrict others (so it seems).

But I do know that from my own personal experiences, minorities are treated far better nowadays- and it now seems to be prejudice against the non-minority people.
I mean, I'm mixed race and muslim, yeah, but by looking at me, you'd never guess it, and I don't play up that side of my heritage. I'm just me, so a normal (almost)white English girl. But its so difficult to find jobs, or work placements, or even to some extent, applying to university, as the emphasis is now on people who aren't 'normal' to some extent. It's actually got to the point where I'm very close to playing up my 'ethnic' side in order to get a work placement, because of companies falling over themselves to employ their 'quota' of minorities. It's ridiculous and I hate it.

Also, a little note about femininists. I hate them for the most part. Why?? Because I've very rarely met a femininist who doesn't just remind me of a man. I don't mean in looks or dress, but in the way they think. They hate men for chauvanism, but they do the exact same thing, only pro-women. That's not equal, that's tipping the scales in the opposite direction. Then you get femininists like Germaine Greer. That woman drives me insane. If you have a typically female role in life, then you're being opressed by the men, but if you have a typically manly role (a mechanic for example), then the men are forcing you to have that role and are controlling you in it. ARGH!!!! You can't win with femininists like that- they're just grumpy and discontent with everything in life.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a strong-minded female who's very much in control and as a trainee solicitor will be practising in a male dominated environment, but femininism to that extent irritates me!

 

[white avenger]

I don't believe that gender or race should be a consideration in judging character. I also do not believe that either should be a consideration in determining qualifications for a job. A lot of employers have adopted so-called "Diversaity Programs" that do nothing more than change the advantage in job consideration to females and "minorities". (Strangely, that "diversity" only extends from a certain job level down. We have minorities in bottom management jobs and below, but no upper management positions. The "Good old Boys" still make the real decisions in making policy, and their sons and bephews still start out in management positions). To have real equality in the work place, there has to be a completely unbiased way of filling jobs ay qualification onyy, Sex, race, age, and religeon should not be a factor in any way. THAT is "equality in the work place." Anything else is still just tipping the scales in one selected group's favor.

 

[Blondie Bear]

Here's my reactions to what you all have said so far.

1. Affirmative Action and diversity programs are often misunderstood. If two people apply for the same job, one white, one black, and they are BOTH EQUALLY QUALIFIED, the employer has to decide whether hiring one over the other will cause a diversity issue in the company and hire accordingly. But before that's even an issue, they have to be equally qualified. The employer CANNOT hire a minority who isn't as qualified as a majority. That is illegal. (My husband is majoring in I/O Psych, and this is what he DOES all day, so he knows.)

2. Didn't anyone learn anything from the "Don't You Just Hate It" thread? The stereotypes are running rampant in here!

3. I self-identify as a Feminist, but I shave my legs, brush my hair, occasionally wear skirts, and am not a man-hating butch lesbian or whatever other Feminist stereotypes some of you may have. I identify as an "iFeminist" (Individualist Feminist), which is basically a Libertarian who focuses on the rights of women.
ifeminists.com: Content / Category / Individualist Feminism FAQ

All of this venom, name calling, and finger pointing will SOLVE NOTHING except to reinforce stereotypes, make everyone hate each other, and NOT lead to any solutions to ANYTHING.

 

[JCC]

I'm a male feminist, so obviously I'm not looking for the subjugation of males by females, I just respect women as equals.

 

[randiann]

Studies have shown that here in the US, minorities and women on average do not make as much money as white males. Minorities are more likely to live below the poverty line, have less education, less access to healthcare, etc. The problem with the world is that people as a whole are selfish creatures, and no one wants to give up power. We have come a long LONG way, but there is never going to be equality for ALL people in the world; we simply do not live in a utopian society. Things like race, gender, sexual orientation, religion, etc. SHOULDN'T matter, but they do. Everyone judges people, it's human to do so. It's not right, but everyone is guilty of it. If someone is willing to work hard enough though, it isn't that difficult (here in America at least) to overcome the extra hurdles, you just might have to work a little bit harder, at least that's my own personal experience. I think that everyone should be equal in a perfect world, but that's just never going to happen.

By the way, I do get so tired of hearing people make excuses based on their race or gender. "I'm poor because I'm _____(insert race/religion/sex here)____" No, you are poor because either A: you were unfortunate enough to not get enough schooling, in which case you need to go back and get your education; or B: you are too lazy to work hard enough to pay for the lifestyle you would like. People get dealt bad hands in life, but that can be overcome if you are just motivated enough

Did any of that make sense?

 

[Legate Damar]

My unsolicited thoughts on the subject:

Racism and sexism are both alive and well, nor will they ever go away. In that statement, I include both "regular" and "reverse" descrimination.

On the other hand, all forms (in the US) are less prevalent than they were, say 30 years ago. How much less prevalent? I do not know, as it is an impossible thing to quantify.

In your personal life, the best you can do is treat everyone as a person. Some people you will like more than others, but treat them all as individuals rather than members of a group.

In the political realm, resign yourself to this: As Americans, we will NEVER be capable of rational discourse. That's probably a true statement about any multi-ethnic country, but it's definitely true in the US. Idiots and extremists on either edge will always dominate the discussion because rational people will tire of listening to their rantings and leave the discussion.

So, to answer your questions:
do you think in this world that one day everyone truly will be equal?
The word "equal" means so many different things to so many different people, that I can't answer that. My guess, however, is No.

Do you think the majority of people claiming to want equal rights just really want to be the group with the most power?
No, the majority do not. But that doesn't mean that none of them do, so if you were to phrase your question slightly differently, you might get what seems like a very different answer. Also affecting your answer would be the level of vocalness of those "claiming to want equal rights." As I touched on above, I think most people would claim to want equal rights, if they were asked. A very low percentage of them are attempting to gain a leg up. But of the population of people who, say, wear ERA t-shirts and bring it up constantly and unprovokedly to others, the percentage would be much higher.

 

[palabravampiress]

Interesting topic.

I'm a feminist, but I'm not very popular with other feminists. I'm not popular because I think we need to address sexism where and when it occurs, not just assume that we see it all around us. I also think we need to be proud of our successes. In the United States, women and men are equal according to the law. We have all of the same rights and responsibilities. I think that's amazing. A lot of feminists tell me that isn't enough. They ask me why there's only one woman running for president right now and why there is a wage gap and why there are fewer women at truly high levels of industry. They don't like my answer, which is "Heck, give us time." Women gained entry into the workforce in the 70s. It wasn't until very recently that we gained equal or near-equal opportunity in the workplace and in education. Plus, the having babies thing really does diminish a woman's earning power because of time spent on leave or, in some cases, because of time spent at home to raising babies (that's not sexism; that's biology). In order to reach the pinnacle of career and/or political success, a woman needs time. I think that by the time my generation, which is just starting its career path, reaches Hilary Clinton's age, we'll see a lot more women in high profile positions. Right now, we have the opportunity; we just need the time to actually build and have our careers. A lot of feminists don't like my "Hey, we did it! Yay! Let's party!" approach. I'm not really sure what else they want.

That's not to say I don't think there's room for improvement or there aren't things against which we need to stand guard. I think women's health issues are very important. The vast majority of medical knowledge and "normal" standards are based on men's bodies. That puts women at a distinct disadvantage. Hormones play a key part in overall health, and women's hormones fluctuate much more than men's, but it's like pulling teeth to get a doctor to check for hormone-related issues. The same goes for reproductive issues. Unless you're trying to get pregnant, doctors -- even Gynos -- are really slow to test for and treat diseases or conditions that affect the reproductive system. The internet is full of women who lament the fact that it took a decade or more for them to even get a diagnosis. The worst part is that it's still taboo for a woman to talk as openly about that issue at work or school as she might about, say, a broken leg. If you want to get pregnant, doctors and society fall all over themselves to try to make that happen; but if you're sick in a way that can't (or isn't likely to) affect a man, then you spend years and years just trying to suck it up and deal before you can get some actual help. Women are far more likely to be labeled hypochondriacs or to be told "it's in your head" -- the reason behind that isn't because women are whiners; it's because medicine is still in many areas comparing our bodies' normal functioning with that of men.

Then there are abortion and contraception to consider. In some states, everyone and their brothers think they have a right to vote or have a say on *my* personal health and reproductive choices. Men can have all the Viagra they want, but God forbid a woman should make her own decisions about the birth control pill, the morning after pill, or abortion. For some reason, personal reproductive health decisions are seen as public instead of private, but I, personally, have a hard time seeing how anything can be more private than what goes on (or doesn't) inside my womb. I just don't see how or why Joe down the street thinks he needs to weigh in. The fact is pregnancy is safer now than it's been in the past, but it's still a dangerous medical condition. Complications can arise. Frequent doctor visits are required. Sometimes, despite the best medical care, women still die. If I choose to take my life into my own hands, then that's fine. But I don't see why Joe and Jane down the street get or want a say. Reproductive choice is important because it is, at its core, a decision about personal health. Unfortunately, a woman's rights are always in jeopardy of being taken away because people can't seem to mind their own business when babies are (or aren't) involved.

So yeah, there's my long-winded take on the feminist side of things. I do think that some aspects of feminism have been successful, but that it is sometimes hard for people to accept that and move on to other areas. My big focus in terms of feminism right now in on the gender gap in medicine. I really do think we've made huge strides in political and workplace rights and I sort of think we need to give ourselves a chance to celebrate that.

I've got views on the racial minority side, too, but I'll save that for another post. This one is kind of long.

 

[Legate Damar]

palabravampiress reminded me of one more thought I wanted to spew forth into the void...

"Equality" can be defined as:
-Equality before the law as the law is written. For example, voting rights used to be limited to landowning males, slavery was legal, and slaves were only 3/5 of a person. Now, it is the official law of the land that everyone is the same.
-Equality before the law as the law is actually practiced. We're not there yet, but progress is being made.
-Equality of opportunity. Here, the (current) biggest difference is actually between those raised rich and raised poor than any other breakdown (race, gender, whatever.) In a lot of ways, we've improved tremendously. For example, my mom's options to be a "professional" were to teach or nurse. Now it's accepted that women can do any white collar job and the US sends more women to college than men. As with "law as practiced," we're not there yet. Unlike "law as practiced," however, I don't know that we ever will be.
-Equality of outcome. This will never happen. Even if all the other three equalities occurred and we lived in Equalitopia, the statistical probablity of getting two (gender) or multiple (race) overlapping identical bell curves of outcome is nil.

 

[Blondie Bear]

Bored of the Dead agrees: Oh NOT a man hating butch lesbian???? That is my fantasy squashed. I'm all for feminism toots, but you can be a feminist and still make me dinner every night😉

I have no problem with making dinner. I do it quite often. However, my hubby helps me fold laundry, takes out the trash, and helps keep the place kept up. If I ask (because he doesn't usually think about it) he'll actually do the laundry and dishes. But he doesn't cook, doesn't like to (though he can), so I do. It's a give-and-take. Like relationships should be.

 

[Evilyn]

Ok, just an example of what RG was talking about in his first post.

My husband works at Coyote Ugly Saloon. One of the rules in ALL the bars across the board is, no men on the bar. Actually they say no c*cks on the bar, but for the sake of not being lewd, men is the nice way to go. From time to time, they will get a group of gay men in the bar and one of them will want to dance on the bar and eventually try and get thrown out. They will then start in with the equal rights and how they don't even like women and they want to watch their boyfriends on the bar. The rule is no men on the bar, no matter what your sexual preference is. It's a rule to protect the female bartenders, and there is no exeception to the rule. If you have a penis, you are not allowed on the bar. So, what they are asking for, in reality is special rights, not equal rights. Equal rights is not allowing anyone with a penis to be on the bar, for that is the rule. Special rights is allowing a gay penis on the bar, just because it's gay and isn't gonna get all, randy dancing with the girls. For the safety of everyone, they can't allow men to be on the bar, especially when the business is based around female entertainers.

As far as feminism goes, I'm all for equality. But, there is a flip side to that. If you are prepared to fight for the rights of a man, then be prepared to take up those rights and don't look for a way out, just because you are a girl. I will use my husband's work as yet another example. The secuirty guards at Coyote are called BMF's (See Samuel L. Jackson in Pulp Fiction). The BMF's are mostly male, but there have been a few females. One problem they have run into with the female bouncers is when they take a guy out or whatever, they are nowhere to be seen. They want the job, boasting that they can do whatever they have to, but when it comes down to it, they can't do it using the fact that they aren't as strong as the guys as an excuse. I have also known some so-called feminists that use their periods as a way to get out of things, like work, etc. If that's not special rights, then I don't know what is.

Basically, what it boils down to for me, is hypocrites. I don't like hypocrites. It's not about race, gender, religion or sexual orentation to me, it's about honestly standing up for what you believe in. Maybe I'm jaded, but I've found that most people I know personally who are an activist of some nature, are hypocrites. If you really believe in what you are fighting for, and you can 100% show me you aren't just blowing smoke up my arse, then by all means, I'll listen. Otherwise, I'm just going to put you on my lifetime ignore list. [rant off]

 

[palabravampiress]

^ Interesting post.

I don't know how I feel about the bar thing. If it's a rule that is enforced by private owners of private establishments, then I kind of have to say it's the owner's right to make rules in his or her own establishment. If it's a law, then I agree that it is unfair to men and that a guy should be allowed to dance on a bar.

The periods thing could relate to what I was saying about the gender gap in medicine. Most women are fully functional while they are on their periods. The reproductive system is a system just like any other, though, and some women have diseases and/or disorders of that system. Menstruation is a natural process, but that doesn't mean that that process functions properly for every woman. Because it takes them a decade to get diagnosed, many women go for years having to beg off work and social functions because of their "periods" rather than because of, say, their Endometriosis or their PCOS. I, personally, fall into that category. I don't have that many periods, so I'm not taking a day or two per month off work. When I do have one, though, they last for about two weeks. They come with debilitating cramps, migraine headaches, and sometimes, I faint. If I don't go to work or school because of my period, it's not because I'm having a normal period; it's because I'm having one that could make me pass out at work, which could in turn (and has in the past) cause me to hit my head while at work and have to go to the hospital (ambulance called while I was passed out, so not by my choice). Some women, like me, are really sick when they get their periods, but it's hard to find medical care or even a diagnosis, so all you have to explain it to people is to say "I'm on my period." I would much rather stay home until the worst has passed and just say I'm "sick" than take the chance of going to work and risk allowing my outward appearance and performance to match how I feel, maybe even to the extent of having to go to the hospital. It's less risky just to take the sick day. I'm sure there are some women who use that as an excuse. I'm just saying... some women really do get sick when they get their periods. I don't think they are demanding anything any more "special" than any other sick person who needs time off when sick.

I agree with you, though, about the fact that people should not be hypocrites. When you see people rally around a cause only to exploit it, then it does sort of make the cause seem less appealing and less legitimate.

 

[Jenny]

I'm at the university now and I'll get my BA soon. But I'm so friggin afraid that, despite my fancy degree, I'm spend my life cleaning toilets. Cause that's basically the best job you can get as a women of color here in Sweden, if you're not DAAAMN lucky.

That is absolutely horrible. I am so sorry that you feel that way/have to face that. I couldn't even imagine.

Here in Canada, the most discriminated against demographic when it comes to employment is the white male. Next is the white female. Or so says Macleans magazine. I work for the Federal Gov't - which tries to be so darn fair and 'transparent' that often they are the most unfair of all.

I recently read an article that states in Canada and the US, women are still making only 70% of the salary that a man is making, doing the exact same job. The reasons? There were many. The most telling one was that men are 3-6 times more likely to toot their own horn. In fact, they did studies on elementary school classes where they found that boys were more than 3 times more likely to say they were great at math and reading, when the girls outpreformed them in both subjects. I found the whole article incredibly interesting - everywhere you look there are people being discriminated against based on something. For instance, a female in her 20s and 30s is less likely to get a job if there is an equally qualified male candidate just because she is of child-bearing age and may decide to start raising a family.

Darn speaking of my daughter needs me so I didn't get to wrap this up but very interesting discussion....

 

[Blondie Bear]

According to my hubby (who, again, is majoring in a Human Resources field), the main reason that men make more than women is because men negotiate their beginning salaries. Women don't. So men start out at a higher pay, which of course keeps them at a higher pay for most of their careers.

 

[Jenny]

According to my hubby (who, again, is majoring in a Human Resources field), the main reason that men make more than women is because men negotiate their beginning salaries. Women don't. So men start out at a higher pay, which of course keeps them at a higher pay for most of their careers.

They did in fact mention this as well..they played a 'game' where men and women were told they would win anywhere between 2 and 10 dollars. When everyone was done playing, they gave them each 3 dollars. Guess what the men did...negotiated for more wheras the women were more likely to settle for what they got.

And yet another factor cited was that the family responsibilities fall on the mother by default, and the father secondarily. So as a result, women actually tend to work less hours over the course of a year - whether because of time off with sick kids, running errands, time on the phone booking docs/school appointments, online banking, etc. Everything that contributes to the running of a household. And YES most men nowadays are VERY good about equal sharing of the housework etc. But it is in a mother's instincts to be the primary caretaker of her kids; when they are sick, she is home with them if possible, she organizes their lives essentially. My hubby calls me the CFO - Chief Family Officer (how's that for corny lol). And I work a full-time job AND run the house with a VERY involved husband (great father)..yet mentally 99% of the 'stuff' is on MY mind and is actioned out by me or at my direction (yes I can be bossy!)

 

[caitaintdead]

I cannot believe that so many people on the BuffyBoards are so narrow minded and stereotypical in their way of thinking. Although I can't show you a picture of myself, feel free to go to my myspace and look at a picture of me and tell me if I look like a man-hating lesbian. I peroxide my hair, wear pretty dresses and absolute love males (both to date them and have them as friends).

I think people with no opinion other then "feminists scare me and I don't agree with them" are one of the biggest jokes in the world.

There are many different types of ways at looking at feminism. Trying to herd anyone calling themselves "feminists" into one category is exactly the same thing as any other kind of stereotyping, which nobody appreciates or enjoys.

For example, the overwhelming urge to call some of you uneducated rednecks right now is outstanding, but I know deep down that this is not true and everyone has their own opinions. I also understand that going onto a message board and making offensive slurs about people is not something that will make me a better person.