Faith and Angelus in 'Enemies'

[passions1989]

I don't know if this question has been posted before so please let me know if it has.

I don't understand why Angel had to kiss Faith in 'Enemies' (after he pretends to change into Angelus). It didn't make any sense to me. I know he was pretending he was Angelus but was the kiss really necessary? Not to mention the fact that it wasn't the only kiss he shares with her in the same episode. In fact I remember when Buffy was captured and tied up by Angel and Faith, I remember the scene where Faith pulls Angel to herself and leans into his face for a kiss, to make Buffy jealous. Don't get me wrong, I understand that Angel (in that particular moment) can't pull himself away and tell Faith to stop because then Faith would become suspicious. So he had to go along with the kiss. But exactly after 2-3 seconds the kiss is over and Faith slowly pulls her face away from his, but Angel continues to kiss her down her neck. Again: Why was that necessary? What exactly was Angel trying to prove in that moment of willingly kissing Faith on her neck? Come to think of it, I don't blame Buffy for becoming a little suspicious of Angel after that episode.

By the way, kudos to David :cheering: for his acting in enemies! 😀 His acting as Angelus is just wicked and drool-worthy! 😀

And one more thing I have noticed in the Buffy fandom is that a lot of people keep commenting that Angel doesn't have any sense of humor compared to Angelus (Angelus's sense of humor is quite vulgar though but i still enjoy it!). But after re-watching 'Enemies', you have to ask yourself: how do you think Angel managed to pull of some of the comments and jokes that only the real Angelus is capable of saying? Like for example his comment about Faith 'liking it on the top', and when she is straddling him, he comments that he mostly wants her to "wriggle".

Angel is behaving like such a 'loose canon-ball' (and very convincingly) in this episode that I find it hard to believe that Angelus and Angel are two different personalities from one another and that Angelus is lying all repressed and suppressed within Angel. Angel so easily tapped into Angelus's side of personality that I find it hard to believe that Angel is a different character from Angelus, how much ever angel might want us to believe that.

 

[Blondie Bear]

I can think of a couple of reasons:

A) he had to convince Faith. Really convince her. So he couldn't just go along with whatever she was doing; he had to be just as horny and raunchy as Angelus (well, sort of, because Angelus probably would have actually slept with her and then ripped her throat out. Probably not in that order).

B) he had to convince US. We're supposed to think Angel went bad again, too. Sure, most people had their doubts, especially since he didn't actually kill anyone, but we had to at least wonder how much was acting and how bad Angel really was after that spell.

 

[passions1989]

I can think of a couple of reasons:

A) he had to convince Faith. Really convince her. So he couldn't just go along with whatever she was doing; he had to be just as horny and raunchy as Angelus (well, sort of, because Angelus probably would have actually slept with her and then ripped her throat out. Probably not in that order).

B) he had to convince US. We're supposed to think Angel went bad again, too. Sure, most people had their doubts, especially since he didn't actually kill anyone, but we had to at least wonder how much was acting and how bad Angel really was after that spell.

Actually now that you mention it, it makes sense. And plus Angelus is a horny and raunchy demon by nature...Many of the flashback scenes about Angelus on BTVS and the Angel series either show him sleeping with Darla or Druisilla a LOT, and once even hinted that he has even raped a girl (I think it was the Gypsy girl).

lol! I have to agree with white avenger David looks like he is trying to rip out Eliza's tongue with his own mouth lol!

😀 I'am just kidding! I actually loved this kissing scene between Faith and Angel! It was hot and wild (of course before Angel threw her against the wall). In fact I thought this kissing scene was hotter than some of the other kissing scenes that Angel shares with Buffy.

I was also re-watching an episode from 'Angel' called Eternity. And I remember Angel is drugged by the actress called Rebecca and he turns in to Angelus. I remember he starts taunting and making fun of Cordelia's acting skills and Wesley's inferiority complex during the ending of that episode. Don't get me wrong, I like Cordelia and Wesley but Angelus's jokes are REALLY good! 😀 (even if he has a dark and evil sense of humor I still enjoy it!) well anyway, after re-watching Eternity it kind of got me thinking: I think Angelus tells the truth and twists the truth with a good dose of his evil sense of humor. Mostly this is aimed at people, to catch them off-guard. But at the ending of 'Eternity' (after Angelus is turned back to Angel and tied to a bed) Wesley and especially Cordelia, seem to think that whatever taunting comments Angelus made about them he was indirectly telling the truth. And when Angel is trying to apologize to Cordelia (about the taunting and mean comments Angelus made) she indirectly tells him that Angel and Angelus share the same opinions about the people in their lives and that Angelus can openly make such comments because he's evil whereas Angel is scared of criticizing or stating the truth or making comments because he is too concerned about hurting others feelings. In other words angel meant those comments (aimed at Wesley, Cordelia and Rebecca) just as much as Angelus did.

Well the point I'am trying to make is that when you compare the Angel season 1 episode, "Eternity" with the episode 'Enemies' from BTVS, I kind of got the feeling that when Angel let's go of his inhibitions (even when he has a soul) his evil sense of humor just comes naturally to him. The reason we don't see that many jokes (even the not-so-evil jokes) from Angel (not Angelus) is because he is always on guard and has deliberately inhibited himself. Not because he has a soul or doesn't have a soul. That's why even when he is pretending to be evil the jokes come naturally to him because somewhere, deep down, he actually means what he says/jokes about.

lol I hope I didn't confuse anyone with my ramblings about Angelus's evil/mean sense of humor : erm :

 

[BuffyElevated]

I can think of a couple of reasons:

A) he had to convince Faith. Really convince her. So he couldn't just go along with whatever she was doing; he had to be just as horny and raunchy as Angelus (well, sort of, because Angelus probably would have actually slept with her and then ripped her throat out. Probably not in that order).

B) he had to convince US. We're supposed to think Angel went bad again, too. Sure, most people had their doubts, especially since he didn't actually kill anyone, but we had to at least wonder how much was acting and how bad Angel really was after that spell.

VERY well put... I questioned this very thing myself at the end of the ep and Angel turned around and we realize that he was playing Faith... I was like "DAMN that's some good acting!" LOL

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I always thought there was something wierd going on in that episode and between them. I can't really name it, it just bugs me. We all know Faith has always had a thing for Angel - but how does he feel about her? That's the question. I agree he did go a bit overboard with it - the question is why?

 

[BuffyElevated]

Well, personally, I think Angel is just a TAD bit attracted to Faith. Maybe it's the fact that she's overtly sexual, maybe he just thinks she's hot, I don't know... But I always thought their characters could have been so awesome together.

*waits for the criticism*

 

[fly on the wall]

I agree with what Joyce Summers said. He had to convince Faith, and more importantly he had to convince the audience. If he showed the slightest hesitation or discomfort or, well, decency, people (and Faith!) would have been suspicious.

And one more thing I have noticed in the Buffy fandom is that a lot of people keep commenting that Angel doesn't have any sense of humor compared to Angelus (Angelus's sense of humor is quite vulgar though but i still enjoy it!). But after re-watching 'Enemies', you have to ask yourself: how do you think Angel managed to pull of some of the comments and jokes that only the real Angelus is capable of saying? Like for example his comment about Faith 'liking it on the top', and when she is straddling him, he comments that he mostly wants her to "wriggle".

Angel is behaving like such a 'loose canon-ball' (and very convincingly) in this episode that I find it hard to believe that Angelus and Angel are two different personalities from one another and that Angelus is lying all repressed and suppressed within Angel. Angel so easily tapped into Angelus's side of personality that I find it hard to believe that Angel is a different character from Angelus, how much ever angel might want us to believe that.

I don't think Angel and Angelus are that separated. Remember what Angel says in "The Dark Age" (S2)? He's spent hundreds of years fighting off a demon. And remember what he says in Doppelgangland, when Buffy is telling Willow that vampires are completely different from their human counterparts? He says "Well, actually....yeah, you're right." I think the demon is always present in Angel's mind. He knows how the demon would act, what it would do and say at any given moment, etc....but his soul prevents him from giving in and doing what the demon wants. It's sort of a split personality deal, I've always thought.

 

[BuffyElevated]

I don't think Angel and Angelus are that separated. Remember what Angel says in "The Dark Age" (S2)? He's spent hundreds of years fighting off a demon. And remember what he says in Doppelgangland, when Buffy is telling Willow that vampires are completely different from their human counterparts? He says "Well, actually....yeah, you're right." I think the demon is always present in Angel's mind. He knows how the demon would act, what it would do and say at any given moment, etc....but his soul prevents him from giving in and doing what the demon wants. It's sort of a split personality deal, I've always thought.

Very well said... Interesting theory!

 

[passions1989]

Well, personally, I think Angel is just a TAD bit attracted to Faith. Maybe it's the fact that she's overtly sexual, maybe he just thinks she's hot, I don't know... But I always thought their characters could have been so awesome together.

*waits for the criticism*

I'm completely on board with this one, it's one of the reasons I posted this topic in the first place. I wasn't completely convinced at the end of the episode that Angel isn't attracted to her. Even after the episode 'Earshot' (where Buffy is afflicted with some telepathic powers) I still wasn't convinced. When Buffy tries to read Angel's mind in the episode 'earshot', and she can't hear his thoughts, Angel says that it's because his thoughts don't create a "reflection" in other people's minds. Now my point is: if at all there was nothing for Joss Whedon to hide from Buffy (and the audience) regarding Angel's private thoughts/opinions on Faith, then why doesn't he let Buffy read Angel's mind instead of throwing the reason at our faces that Angel's thoughts don't create a reflection? It's only when you have something to hide from others that you will refuse to show it, right? I think Joss deliberately kept it ambiguous for the audience to continue speculating. He didn't just keep it ambiguous in 'Earshot' but he kept it ambiguous even in 'Enemies'. I remember a conversation between Angel and Faith in 'Enemies' (before Angel starts pretending to be evil) where this is what he says:

Faith: I need to cool down. Spend some time alone. Don't worry about me. You've been a big help. Just knowing somebody cares. Hey, I know I shouldn't be asking this, but do you think if things were different that things between you and me would be different, too?

Angel: We'll never know.

There you have it! Angel himself is ambiguous. If at all there was absolutely NO chance of him and Faith happening even if things were different, if Angel was absolutely sure that NOTHING can happen between him and Faith, then his reply should have been "I don't think so, no way, because I only see you as a friend" (in other words, a firm reply to that effect instead of an ambiguous one). But he himself seems unsure of it.

I think Joss Whedon is trying to keep the audience on their toes. As such, I do think that somewhere deep down Angel (and Angelus) is sexually attracted to Faith.

 

[anyatara]

Heck, no-one think that maybe Eliza asked Joss to put the kiss in? 😛 I mean who WOULDN'T want to kiss David? 😉

But no, seriously, it's all to do with believing he's evil. If he'd lost his soul again he wouldn't love Buffy, he'd want to be working with her enemies right, and get to her? What better way to do that than kissing her current nemisis? (Well, I like to think Faith was her nemesis, for a while. 😛) That's basically the only logical explanation. Unless Angel was into Faith. I mean they did end up having a pretty close bond. But it's probably to do with trust and belief.

 

[passions1989]

Okay I just wanted to ask you guys: apparently the on-screen kiss scene between Angel and Faith in 'Enemies' is the first on-screen kiss for Eliza. Is that true? Because I read somewhere a long time ago about how she used her tongue for the kiss scene and ended up getting it punctured because of David's vampire teeth. Apparently using the tongue in an on-screen kiss scene is not allowed and Eliza didn't know that. lol Is that true? Because I read about it a long time ago.

 

[white avenger]

I don't think that the point was doing what Angelus would have done as much as doing what Faith THOUGHT that he would have done. I seriously doubt that she knew very much about him, except for the fact that he was supposed to be evil. The real Angelus would have been much more likely to have raped her, then drained her, (or even the other way around) then kill Wilkins just out of sheer meanness than to be overwhelmed by her charms and any desire to go along with the Ascention plot. As for how horney he might have been, we've never seen him particularly interested in sex immediately after emerging before. He's more like a fledgling, whose first thought is to feed.

If Faith had known the REAL Angelus, bringing him out would have been the last thing that she would have wanted to do.