Faith And Dawn

[thetopher]

So in Graduation Day Part 2 Faith mentions (cryptically) about Dawn's coming. 'Little Miss Muffet...' and so on. And then again she references 'Little Sis Coming' during her coma in 'This Year's Girl.' (where 'real' Buffy isn't even involved in that dream.)

So, anybody got any theories as to why Faith knew about Dawn well before Buffy did? I mean, a full year before Dawn appeared Faith was referencing her- that's pretty bizarre. 😕

My own theory is that Faith, like a lot of slayers, has prophecy dreams, but her dreams only pretain to Buffy's future, because of the whole two slayers existing together deal it messes up the system. Any other theories?

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I hadn't given much thought to who had that prophecy. It might have just been Buffys power telling her through Faith, same way it used Tara.
Or they were legitimately sharing a dream space and Faith relayed the info to Buffy, but I have a hard time believing that was Faith since she wasn't the same personality. I always thought it was Buffys power though, like had Faith not been there the slayer power would have relayed that info through someone else.

Buffy wasn't THE slayer at the time, I can't remember now, did Buffy have any prophecy dreams in season 3, 4 or 5?
The only times we saw it were when the first slayer was directly called in season 4 and 5?
Maybe Buffy wasn't getting the dreams as Faith was THE slayer?

---------- Post added at 12:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:35 PM ----------

Oh actually Buffy was having Angel dreams at the start of season 3, guess it's debatable they could have been physic dreams about his impending return or just dreams cuz of the whole traumatic incident.

 

[thetopher]

I hadn't given much thought to who had that prophecy. It might have just been Buffys power telling her through Faith, same way it used Tara.
Or they were legitimately sharing a dream space and Faith relayed the info to Buffy, but I have a hard time believing that was Faith since she wasn't the same personality. I always thought it was Buffys power though, like had Faith not been there the slayer power would have relayed that info through someone else.

Buffy wasn't THE slayer at the time, I can't remember now, did Buffy have any prophecy dreams in season 3, 4 or 5?
The only times we saw it were when the first slayer was directly called in season 4 and 5?
Maybe Buffy wasn't getting the dreams as Faith was THE slayer?

---------- Post added at 12:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:35 PM ----------

Oh actually Buffy was having Angel dreams at the start of season 3, guess it's debatable they could have been physic dreams about his impending return or just dreams cuz of the whole traumatic incident.

Buffy had the dream about the Gentlemen in S4, that was wierd and prophetic. And she dreamed about the Potentials in S7, when they were getting killed by the First's bringers. She's always had the dreams, they just surfaced less often after S2.

Plus, I'm pretty sure that the dream in GD was a shared dream, Faith told Buffy how to beat the Mayor, ('human weakness') that's what Buffy told the others later on, and also that's what Joss has indicated in interviews about that particular dream.

Joss wanted to show that Faith and Buffy could've been something else but only when Faith was no longer in a position to attack Buffy.

Plus the coma thing had nothing to do with Buffy, it was all in Faith's mind while she was healing, which I guess is the puzzling thing.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Buffy had the dream about the Gentlemen in S4, that was wierd and prophetic. And she dreamed about the Potentials in S7, when they were getting killed by the First's bringers. She's always had the dreams, they just surfaced less often after S2.

Well by season 7 Buffy arguably was THE slayer again, so that makes sense, but I'd forgotten about the Gentlemen.

Plus, I'm pretty sure that the dream in GD was a shared dream, Faith told Buffy how to beat the Mayor, ('human weakness') that's what Buffy told the others later on, and also that's what Joss has indicated in interviews about that particular dream.

But "Faith" telling Buffy could have just been the slayer power telling Buffy. It might have been a small part Faith but there's no way it was Faith. She goes into a Coma mad and comes out mad, if she was nice in dream comas and wanted to help Buffy why would she want revenge for Buffy killing the Mayor after waking up?
It might have been the Slayer part of Faith in that dream, but it wasn't the real Faith.

 

[janas]

I love the oneiric sequence between Buffy and Faith (I even wrote a fanfic about that dream) and I always thought it was due to their connection slayer. I agree that it was a shared dream, in season three there is another moment of shared dream. In Amends Buffy share the same dreams with Angel.

 

[thetopher]

Well by season 7 Buffy arguably was THE slayer again, so that makes sense, but I'd forgotten about the Gentlemen.


But "Faith" telling Buffy could have just been the slayer power telling Buffy. It might have been a small part Faith but there's no way it was Faith. She goes into a Coma mad and comes out mad, if she was nice in dream comas and wanted to help Buffy why would she want revenge for Buffy killing the Mayor after waking up?
It might have been the Slayer part of Faith in that dream, but it wasn't the real Faith.

Well, there's the fact that Faith was friends with Buffy before they were enemies, the fact that deep down Faith hates herself for what she had become and knew that she screwed up. (her talk to Angel in 'Sanctuary' is proof of this.)
Plus it could've easily been Faith's subconscious, or the part of her that wanted to undo all those mistakes. Psychologically people are complicated, with conflicting emotions.

Bottom line it was Faith's knowledge that the Mayor cared about her that she shared with Buffy, there's no evidence to suggest that it was just the 'slayer' part of her 'doing her job' or whatever.
Also Joss has said as much that it was Faith and Buffy sharing a moment, Faith choosing to tell Buffy something personal.

In S4 when Faith wakes up she finds out that she's all alone and that Buffy has forgotten about her, moved on with her life after eight months or so. That's why Faith was mad at Buffy.

In Faith's mind Buffy had ruined her life and taken everything that mattered from her (the Mayor specifically) for somebody that wasn't even around anymore (Angel). The fact that it wasn't ever that simple was lost in all her pain and hate- she was out of control and lashed out accordingly.

It was never as simple as 'wake up and go for revenge' with Faith. She even tells this to Buffy when they first meet. She goes on a long rant- and then again with Joyce, her motives are pretty much right there for all to see. She's angry that Buffy has forgotten about her and moved on to 'somebody else'.
*sigh* It's all very subtext-y. 🙂

 

[janas]

It is very probable that it was the slayer part. I think it's canon, but I'm not sure. Buffy was not connected to all slayers in season eight? This would explain the premonitory dream, I see no other connection between B&F. Whatever the case, Faith has certainly contributed (unconsciously or not) to save the world from the Mayor's apocalypse.

[MENTION=12614]thetopher[/MENTION], Subtext? 🙂 But the overtext is much more readable. Faith has chosen, once again, to be on the wrong side. She is confused, disoriented, alone, but this doesn't justify his choices. I agree that she had real reasons to be angry with Buffy (she was never interested to know if Faith was fine in all those months that her was in a coma), but Buffy, once again, wanted to help her, while Faith has chosen, once again, to siding with the Mayor and to hurt Buffy.
Fortunately for her, the slayer instinct has taken precedence and while she could get away, her decided to go back to help the hostages in that church. From here begins the long journey towards Faith's redemption. In a church ...and ends in the City of Angels 🙂

 

[thetopher]

It is very probable that it was the slayer part. I think it's canon, but I'm not sure. Buffy was not connected to all slayers in season eight? This would explain the premonitory dream, I see no other connection between B&F. Whatever the case, Faith has certainly contributed (unconsciously or not) to save the world from the Mayor's apocalypse.

[MENTION=12614]thetopher[/MENTION], Subtext? 🙂 But the overtext is much more readable. Faith has chosen, once again, to be on the wrong side. She is confused, disoriented, alone, but this doesn't justify his choices. I agree that she had real reasons to be angry with Buffy (she was never interested to know if Faith was fine in all those months that her was in a coma), but Buffy, once again, wanted to help her, while Faith has chosen, once again, to siding with the Mayor and to hurt Buffy.
Fortunately for her, the slayer instinct has taken precedence and while she could get away, her decided to go back to help the hostages in that church. From here begins the long journey towards Faith's redemption. In a church ...and ends in the City of Angels 🙂

Completely agree. 🙂
Faith was blinded by anger but she still chose to attack Buffy out of revenge- it was partly understandable (Buffy tried to kill her and feed her to Angel) and partly not, it wasn't all about Angel with Buffy, it was about stopping somebody who was dangerous and doing evil things- Angel was just the catalyst for that end confrontation.
Subtext-wise Faith comes across very much as a bitter ex that's gotten dumped, but the actual text is 'Buffy took my life- Now I'm gonna take hers.'

Plus, and this is more subtle, Faith has been plagued by pretty vivid nightmares all through her coma about Buffy coming to kill her- so I think its fair to say that Faith is somewhat afraid of Buffy, but buries that under all this fury. (she even yells at Buffy in the churcgh 'Do you think I'm afraid of you?')

But...I always thought Faith going to the church in the first place wasn't 'slayer instinct' per se, that makes it sound somewhat subconcious. I think it was Faith making a choice, trying to be more Buffy-like, to be responsible and do the right thing, to be who she was supposed to be- a slayer, somebody who protects people and stops vampires. (When she declares 'Because its wrong.' in the church she really believes it.)

But her epiphany comes too late for Buffy and, as you say, later on its up to Angel to save her from herself. 🙂

 

[Blaze]

I always saw it as a prophetic dream shared by both slayers. It's also one of my favourite moment of the series, because it not only foreshadows what will happens 2 seasons later, but it shows the slayer bond. What might have been if you will.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

It seems like shared dreams are used to show connections between people. There was the shared dream in "Restless 4ABB22" where Buffy and all the scoobies dreamed of the man with the cheese slices.

 

[chasesummers]

Personally, I feel that these interpretations and symbolic dreams always came from Buffy. Dreams cannot be shared (separate mind) and astral projection didn't seem to be the case in either of these episodes because it would have been a different story.

Graduation Day Part 2
Buffy: "Who's going to look after him?" (Talking about the cat)
Faith: "It's a she. And aren't these things supposed to take care of themselves?"

Buffy gets prophetic dreams, this is one of them and this is her dream.
The message or riddle as she says comes in the form of Faith, but not actually Faith because it's a dream.
The cat here represents Dawn. Cat's are very independent and like Faith says, they take care of themselves but the cat in Buffy's dream is a kitten, which is more vulnerable and which makes more sense.

Why Faith as the messenger?
Because they had Eliza Dushku 😉 lol
But in Buffyverse, probably because Faith was always in Buffy's mind.

This Years Girl
Same story, Buffy was again having one of her prophetic dreams and the message was being given to her in the form of Faith.
Faith was also having her own dream in this episode, independent from Buffy. Both dreams with their symbolic interpretations.


Whether or not Faith had the same gift of prophetic dreams or another, to my knowledge it was never explored.

 

[BuffyElevated]

I always saw it as the PTB finding a way to give Buffy clues about what was going to happen, such as the prophetic dreams she had about the Potentials in Season 7. It wasn't REALLY Faith telling her about Dawn, the PTB just chose someone she would recognize to appear to her.

 

[thetopher]

I guess it could be argued that GD part 2 wasn't really Faith, or it was the slayer part of her or whatever. I don't think so but its a valid option.

But in 'This Year's Girl' its all Faith. Buffy isn't dreaming, we don't see any sign of Buffy sleeping, just Faith in a coma with her and Buffy still making that darn bed. It's all in Faith's head but she still references Dawn.

---------- Post added at 06:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:42 PM ----------

Personally, I feel that these interpretations and symbolic dreams always came from Buffy. Dreams cannot be shared (separate mind) and astral projection didn't seem to be the case in either of these episodes because it would have been a different story.

Graduation Day Part 2
Buffy: "Who's going to look after him?" (Talking about the cat)
Faith: "It's a she. And aren't these things supposed to take care of themselves?"

Buffy gets prophetic dreams, this is one of them and this is her dream.
The message or riddle as she says comes in the form of Faith, but not actually Faith because it's a dream.
The cat here represents Dawn. Cat's are very independent and like Faith says, they take care of themselves but the cat in Buffy's dream is a kitten, which is more vulnerable and which makes more sense.

Why Faith as the messenger?
Because they had Eliza Dushku 😉 lol
But in Buffyverse, probably because Faith was always in Buffy's mind.

This Years Girl
Same story, Buffy was again having one of her prophetic dreams and the message was being given to her in the form of Faith.
Faith was also having her own dream in this episode, independent from Buffy. Both dreams with their symbolic interpretations.


Whether or not Faith had the same gift of prophetic dreams or another, to my knowledge it was never explored.

In the GD dream the cat represents Faith- it fades out on the bed showing an injured Faith. She can't take care of herself but Faith says that 'these things take care of themselves.'
(in fact Joss has said that the cat imagery- plus the cat/kitten in 'Restless' represent slayers in general.)

 

[chasesummers]

[MENTION=12614]thetopher[/MENTION]

Haven't seen them in a while so thanks for refreshing my memory.
In this case, if Faith was dreaming then it doesn't make much sense. Maybe Joss just wanted to keep hinting out what's to come without anything else in mind.

I may be missing something but the whole Dawn thing is a little extreme itself. One person can influence a whole lot of other people... I mean, the monks or whatever didn't just implant fake memories in Buffy and the gang, but mainly everybody, the school, ''her'' friends and so forth.

Side note, if I'm not mistaken.. the Buffy Omnibus books (around season 1-4) have Dawn in them. Wonder if Buffy and Faith still had those dreams. Blehh lol