Faith and Season 7

[BlackWitchWicca]

I've always liked Faith, she always seemed more real than Buffy in all honesty and kinda made Buffy seem like a perfect miss know it all. I just wanted to post a thread because Buffy and Spike are really cringy with all the drama about Caleb and now Faith returning to lead the girls. Faith has shown to be a much stronger, honest and reliable person compared to Buffy, the girl who thinks she's better than everyone. She is acting selfish in this series. And the fact that Faith is right she hasn't even bothered to even learn the names of any of the potentials which doesn't make her a great leader at all. She doesn't seem to care whether they live or die the way she's acting. Faith is connecting with them more and giving them a reason to live. And the only cringey person that sticks up for Buffy is Spike, a man who is hopelessly obsessed with her, which doesn't say much lol

 

[Bop]

I think they did strike a really good balance with Faith in season 7 because she did respect Buffy's place as the leader of the potentials, Spike asks her in the basement scene if she was up there imparting wisdom to the girls and she says that's Buffy's thing and after she actually becomes the leader she is shown to be unsure of herself and that she'd actually prefer Buffy to return and lead them. At the same time, Faith isn't going to agree with Buffy on everything and she'll tell her so, I think that makes a good balance. Having a 'yes man' around isn't going to do Buffy any good.

I think Buffy just made the mistake of overestimating how long she can ride on good faith from everyone, like the vineyard wasn't her fault but it went wrong and she just expected them all to return and she refused to not be the leader. But when the plan goes wrong with Faith as the leader, Faith assumes she's not the leader anymore because of that and she doesn't think she should be the leader because of it.

So yeah I just find Faith really humble in this phase of her life.

 

[thrasherpix]

On my 2nd full watch of season 7, I had a response that mystified those seeing it for the first time. Faith asks, "Am I the good Slayer now?"

I blurted out, "Yes."

It's actually kind of funny how the rhetoric of Faith and Buffy changes places from season 3 and 7, where season 7 Buffy starts talking like season 3 Faith (I thought that was going to be addressed on my first naive watch of it). I think it was completely accidental. If it wasn't, I'd have liked that examined more as I'd have liked a more nuanced look at their positions that wasn't so simplistic.


That aside, I can't say I liked Faith better than Buffy overall. Many thought I'd love Faith and hate Buffy, but they were wrong. I like both for different reasons, but I don't fully relate to (or want to project myself into) either.

Back in those early days, before I saw the show myself, I knew plenty, male and female (most neopagan, but not particularly new age about it), who preferred Faith to Buffy. Interesting enough, they weren't big shippers (a few MIGHT have been Fuffy shippers). All I remember on why is that they thought Faith was more down to earth, done dirty, and that Buffy whined way too much that only got worse with each passing season (like fine in early seasons, but tiresome later on, especially as it just seems to be learning the same lessons over again). I don't fully agree with that for either character, but I can see why some would see it that way.


I did have one really cool waking up dream (as in woke up, fell back asleep to dream it before I woke back up about 5 minutes later) in which I saw a movie trailer that was what some would call a deconstruction (I'd call it character assassination) of Buffy, making her a lot more like in the movie. The narrator is like "You've heard her side...now hear hers." It focused on Faith which was different, probably closer to how Faith saw herself and Buffy in seasons 3 before the Mayor, did at least include the famous dance scene between them, as one by one the words went by on the trailer screen, "HAVE...A ...LITTLE.... FAITH."

I'd watch it. And I think a great many others would as well, that is those who tried to get me to see the show in the first place.

 

[NoShip]

I think Buffy just made the mistake of overestimating how long she can ride on good faith from everyone, like the vineyard wasn't her fault but it went wrong and she just expected them all to return and she refused to not be the leader. But when the plan goes wrong with Faith as the leader, Faith assumes she's not the leader anymore because of that and she doesn't think she should be the leader because of it.

I think the vineyard was Buffy's fault. She did a terrible job preparing and got the result one normally gets when the unprepared go to war.

First, where was the knowledge of her enemy? Buffy did nothing to find out about Caleb or what the Bringers were up to or what Sunnydale's underworld was up to or even what the local humans were doing.

Second, she didn't do a good job of training an army. She trained a bunch of individuals to fight in a pack and did not give the potentials the individual fighting skills to survive.

Third, she didn't listen to her war council. The vineyard was a pretty obvious trap.

Given what a terrible commander Buffy has been for the last 10 episodes, I was surprised anyone with experience went along.

Buffy refusing to give up command is just assining. But, Buffy has shown such pig-headedness all season, so.......

 

[garfan]

I think the vineyard was Buffy's fault. She did a terrible job preparing and got the result one normally gets when the unprepared go to war.

First, where was the knowledge of her enemy? Buffy did nothing to find out about Caleb or what the Bringers were up to or what Sunnydale's underworld was up to or even what the local humans were doing.

Caleb's entire power is a new thing. They had no way of discovering it before he wanted them to.

Second, she didn't do a good job of training an army. She trained a bunch of individuals to fight in a pack and did not give the potentials the individual fighting skills to survive.

This is a no win situation for Buffy I will not blame Buffy for

She had never been in charge of training anyone. She'd never even thrown a punch before she was empowered as a Slayer. The Watchers had never had to train potentials for fighting in a group, so even Giles wouldn't have a method for what you ask. She could have called in Riley and the Initiative(or whatever it's replacement is called) and they wouldn't have had a method because Slayers don't use modern weaponry and weapons training which plays a big part in military training. Plus, I'm not sure US military hand to hand stuff is considered top quality

Third, she didn't listen to her war council. The vineyard was a pretty obvious trap.

let's look at her War Council

Willow: traumatized, deathly scared of having to use her full potential

Giles: inconsistent, willing to make choices she will disagree with and unilaterally implement them,willing to go behind her back, frequently absent from the house so may not know the full extent of the situation in the home

Faith: previously a traitor, has no leadership experience to Buffy's knowledge, took the girls our partying when everyone keeps talking about how important keeping them safe

Robin: known his for five months, spent most of that time lying to her and going behind her back.

Xander: the most supportive of her, but the least power, the least willingness to try to get more power. Takes big risks fighting, and encouraging the potentials to fight like him might not be protecting them. The second time around is traumatized

Anya: super old, might have a lot of experience but was never a fighter. Most of her battle experience comes in the four years Buffy has known her.

Given what a terrible commander Buffy has been for the last 10 episodes, I was surprised anyone with experience went along.

Buffy refusing to give up command is just assining. But, Buffy has shown such pig-headedness all season, so.......

prior to season 7 the Scoobies had experience in ONE battle where they led a group of human strength people into battle. So, no one had experience

Everyone had told her she HAD to lead them. You can say, well now they're saying she doesn't have to, but that means they were wrong to put her in charge before, if they were wrong before, why couldn't they be wrong now? It turns into a circular argument about why she should trust their advice then? Also, while people like to point out how much she relied on them, generally she was at the center of it. Either it was her ideas being implemented, or it was her body being put on the line

Plus, the way this group was acting, if she was there and she implemented someone else's plan, she'd still get the blame if it failed. She was a distraction, she didn't put her all in it, or even why did she let them implement such a bad plan?

 

[NoShip]

This is a no win situation for Buffy I will not blame Buffy for

She had never been in charge of training anyone. She'd never even thrown a punch before she was empowered as a Slayer. The Watchers had never had to train potentials for fighting in a group, so even Giles wouldn't have a method for what you ask. She could have called in Riley and the Initiative(or whatever it's replacement is called) and they wouldn't have had a method because Slayers don't use modern weaponry and weapons training which plays a big part in military training. Plus, I'm not sure US military hand to hand stuff is considered top quality

She did NOT ask for help. I will blame her for that.

The military uses bayonettes (think of long knives that can be attached to long sticks - combo short swords & pikes). Special Ops uses machetes & cross bows & blow guns & garrots & spears. Riley is Special Ops.

Special Ops hand to hand is some of the best in the world. The general military's is a sliding scale of quality depending on one's specialty.

Post automatically merged: Feb 22, 2026

Caleb's entire power is a new thing. They had no way of discovering it before he wanted them to.

Buffy & Co have killed many super powered beings before. In S5 they killed a literal god. Given her experience, Buffy should have had a plan.

Post automatically merged: Feb 22, 2026

let's look at her War Council

Willow: traumatized, deathly scared of having to use her full potential

Giles: inconsistent, willing to make choices she will disagree with and unilaterally implement them,willing to go behind her back, frequently absent from the house so may not know the full extent of the situation in the home

Faith: previously a traitor, has no leadership experience to Buffy's knowledge, took the girls our partying when everyone keeps talking about how important keeping them safe

Robin: known his for five months, spent most of that time lying to her and going behind her back.

Xander: the most supportive of her, but the least power, the least willingness to try to get more power. Takes big risks fighting, and encouraging the potentials to fight like him might not be protecting them. The second time around is traumatized

Anya: super old, might have a lot of experience but was never a fighter. Most of her battle experience comes in the four years Buffy has known her.

Your massive biases are on full display.

GILES was not the traitor. BUFFY was. She released triggered Spike to do whatever without a thought for the defenseless potentials. Keeping the potentials alive so the Slayer Line would continue was Buffy's mission. Even when she didn't care about it.

Giles makes good decisions, especially given what a moron Buffy is shown to be from CWDP on. And WHY is Giles absent? Oh wait!!! Giles is the ONLY one trying to detrigger Spike. He's also the only one trying to figure out what The First is up to. Yeah ..... Giles is quite the traitor.

Also, Buffy has spent the last 5 months lying to the potentials by not telling them about the risk of Spike. So, Buffy & Wood are in pretty much the same situation.

 

[garfan]

She did NOT ask for help. I will blame her for that.

the whole point of things like blowing up the Watchers Council was to make it seem like help wasn't available

The military uses bayonettes (think of long knives that can be attached to long sticks - combo short swords & pikes). Special Ops uses machetes & cross bows & blow guns & garrots & spears. Riley is Special Ops.

Special Ops hand to hand is some of the best in the world. The general military's is a sliding scale of quality depending on one's specialty.

I suppose, though looking back, she did witness a battle where soldiers with that sort of training suffered massive casualties

Post automatically merged: Feb 22, 2026

Buffy & Co have killed many super powered beings before. In S5 they killed a literal god. Given her experience, Buffy should have had a plan.

even Glory couldn't one punch knock her out, and the First was willing to use barely more than human Bringers as lackeys, so no reason to figure Caleb was that powerful

 

[NoShip]

I suppose, though looking back, she did witness a battle where soldiers with that sort of training suffered massive casualties

BASED. ON. WHAT???

Are you just making stuff up?

 

[garfan]

BASED. ON. WHAT???

Are you just making stuff up?

Primevil? Second to last episode of season 4? Where Adam opened up the cells

I mean she was kind of tied up fighting Adam, but she'd have seen them coming out once the fight was over. And things were bad enough that the people in charge wanted to basically salt the Earth under the place. And the whole premise of trying to get her there was soldiers vs demons is a demon stomp without something to tip the scales closer to balanced

I just went to the transcript and the soldiers suffered 40% casualties and the guy who says that says that without the Scoobies and Riley their lossed would have been total

 

[thetopher]

Faith in Season 7 is a believable evolution of her previous flawed self. She's calmer, more centered and mature. She accepts that she is not wanted even if she is needed and takes that gracefully. She is content is her place as second slayer until the mutiny when she has leadership thrust upon her by the Potentials.
Not for nothing but she handles the leadership well too, although she is shown to be unsure and shaken at times, she gets everyone organized, outlines what they know, what they need to know and strategize accordingly. Her plan, whilst it fails, accounts for and includes others and their talents, so its a more sympathetic failure that Buffy's vineyard disaster, and its worth knowing that Buffy herself acknowledges that as well.

Still Faith is still shown to be somewhat reckless- 'drop me in the hornet's nest' and also dismissive of the guys she's with intimately- completely understandable in this instance with Wood. And whilst she'll take crap from Buffy she will not take the same from asshats like Spike, which is appreciated.
Overall she is more 'the mission matters more' than Buffy, she is better at burying personal beefs and taking her feelings out of any tactical considerations, unlike Buffy. So, 'good slayer' indeed, at at least 'momentarily more competent & sympathetic slayer'.

I still prefer Faith's arc in Angel S4, in S7 she is basically there to make amends with Buffy, be shown that Buffy has always had it harder than her, be shown that Buffy is still the slayer that matters and that she is cool with that now.

 

[Buffy Summers]

BASED. ON. WHAT???

Are you just making stuff up?

Let's calm down a bit. Just ask for clarification - no need to shout.

 

[NoShip]

Primevil? Second to last episode of season 4? Where Adam opened up the cells

I mean she was kind of tied up fighting Adam, but she'd have seen them coming out once the fight was over. And things were bad enough that the people in charge wanted to basically salt the Earth under the place. And the whole premise of trying to get her there was soldiers vs demons is a demon stomp without something to tip the scales closer to balanced

I just went to the transcript and the soldiers suffered 40% casualties and the guy who says that says that without the Scoobies and Riley their lossed would have been total

This battle was modern scientific weaponry against magical vamps and demons. Given the themes of the series (see the teaser in WTTH where the magical world metaphorically invades the modern scientific world) there was no way the modern scientific soldiers could win or even hold their own against the magical vamps & demons. The 40% casualties drove that point home.

Post automatically merged: Feb 23, 2026

the whole point of things like blowing up the Watchers Council was to make it seem like help wasn't available

Buffy had the same help she'd always had when facing an apocalypse: Giles, Willow, Xander, and new additions Anya & Dawn. She didn't ask and when she did, she ignored some really excellent advice.

 

[garfan]

This battle was modern scientific weaponry against magical vamps and demons. Given the themes of the series (see the teaser in WTTH where the magical world metaphorically invades the modern scientific world) there was no way the modern scientific soldiers could win or even hold their own against the magical vamps & demons. The 40% casualties drove that point home.

Post automatically merged: Feb 23, 2026

right? So why wouldn't a similar thing be true for implementing their training methods

As an aside, I feel like that was a shift for the show, the first time magic outstrips technology

In season 1 we have a simple computer scanner undo a hundreds of year old spell, season 2 a rocket launches outdoes a spell that says no weapon can hurt this demon, season 3 a fertilizer bomb defeats and old one, even in season 4 itself Adam sees through Jonathan's reality altering spell

Buffy had the same help she'd always had when facing an apocalypse: Giles, Willow, Xander, and new additions Anya & Dawn. She didn't ask and when she did, she ignored some really excellent advice.

She also had an additional burden in the potentials

 

[NoShip]

right? So why wouldn't a similar thing be true for implementing their training methods

As an aside, I feel like that was a shift for the show, the first time magic outstrips technology

In season 1 we have a simple computer scanner undo a hundreds of year old spell, season 2 a rocket launches outdoes a spell that says no weapon can hurt this demon, season 3 a fertilizer bomb defeats and old one, even in season 4 itself Adam sees through Jonathan's reality altering spell



She also had an additional burden in the potentials

As I said before the military trains using many different weapons and tactics. Special Ops is more than capable of working out how to kill demons and vamps. At the beginning of S4 The Intiative was capturing vamps and demons using a combo of high and low tech.

The military's training methods are quite sound. Physical fitness. Mastery of weapons systems. Individual and group combat both armed and unarmed. Fieldcraft. Escape and evasion behind enemy lines. Training method produces a fit, focused, self-disciplined individual eager to kick the bad guys butts on his own or as part of a team.

Buffy was kinda training the potentials but Willow Anya Xander Dawn were feeding and watering them. So, burder sharing among members of a team.

 

[garfan]

Buffy was kinda training the potentials but Willow Anya Xander Dawn were feeding and watering them. So, burder sharing among members of a team.

That doesn't split the emotional burden

I don't know if it's an intentional flaw or bad writing but any time Buffy ends up protecting someone in particular rather than society and the world in general, a LOT of people end up dissatisfied

The potentials, Dawn. A lot of people dislike her going after Faith to save Angel and I believe her treatment of Debbie when trying to save her from her boyfriend Pete in Beauty and the Beasts was unpopular

 

[NoShip]

The burden sharing includes the emotional burden. That is why you have a team instead of servants.

 

[garfan]

The burden sharing includes the emotional burden. That is why you have a team instead of servants.

I am not sure that Joss and co buy into the whole "joy shared is doubled, pain shared is halved" thing

Especially how the characters in the show try to hide their pain from everyone else

 

[NoShip]

I am not sure that Joss and co buy into the whole "joy shared is doubled, pain shared is halved" thing

Especially how the characters in the show try to hide their pain from everyone else

Well..... The emotional burder sharing was available. Whether Buffy was written to take it or not......

And this is why I don't think Whedon was or is a good writer. One of the greatest put downs against a writer is a reader being able to say "A Writer Wrote This" meaning the writer's writing is so bad it takes the reader out of the narrative.

Whedon & Co are often guilty of this. Just look at how forced Riley was. Or, the no one will kill Dawn developments in S5. Or the kick the Buffy in Dead Man's Party or Revelations. Or the dramas of the Scooby Break/Make Ups across so many finales. There are so many examples, but, I'll stop

 

[garfan]

Well..... The emotional burder sharing was available. Whether Buffy was written to take it or not......

You misunderstand. I'm saying, if the writers of the Buffyverse don't believe that you actually can share the burden, then they wouldn't write it as possible for Buffy to take it. Like she cares, you'll excuse the ridiculousness please, 5/5 caring units, well people can't touch brains or anything to change that. However much they care about the situation, their feelings do nothing alleviate hers.

In this situation, the only way to fix a burden for others would be to solve the problem for them, or never place the burden on them at all

And this is why I don't think Whedon was or is a good writer. One of the greatest put downs against a writer is a reader being able to say "A Writer Wrote This" meaning the writer's writing is so bad it takes the reader out of the narrative.

Whedon & Co are often guilty of this. Just look at how forced Riley was. Or, the no one will kill Dawn developments in S5. Or the kick the Buffy in Dead Man's Party or Revelations. Or the dramas of the Scooby Break/Make Ups across so many finales. There are so many examples, but, I'll stop

no, I totally agree. It's because he wants the drama and angst, logic be damned. I've also heard he said he wanted to write the stories people NEEDED not wanted and with that kind of ego, well

I always liked the MoTW episodes best, I believed them more. And the Scoobies as presented in those eps would not have fallen to the depths they do in many other episodes

 

[BuffyElevated]

I absolutely loved Faith's presence in Season 7. I thought it showed a believable, more mature version of the character, and Eliza did an amazing job of portraying that new maturity, as well as the hesitance she showed when shoved into the leader role after the Potentials kicked Buffy out.