Faith, and your opinion of her

[SoBlind]

I hate Buffy in Sanctuary she is so outrageous to both Faith and Angel. I am so glad when Angel punches her.

When she says that line to Faith I wanted to slap her. Its so nasty and so uncalled for. Here is this clearly broken person who is trying to make amends for what she did and your response is I will beat you to death? Real compassionate Buffy. Buffy just doesn't do well with broken people. She should have let Angel handle it instead of getting all jealous and turning into pms Buffy.

lol i don't agree with that at all. although i found buffy extremely obnoxious towards angel and was quite happy when they had their fights (when he punched her as well as the end when he told her that all this wasn't about her but saving somebody's soul) i totally understood why she said she'd beat her to death if she now apologised to her. look at what faith has done to buffy and the people around her:
she killed someone, she joined the mayor in a fight against buffy to become some super demon, tried to kill angel - then tried to steal angel from her, then (supposedly) ripped him off his soul, kidnapped willow, poisoned angel, stole buffys body and slept with her boyfriend and then went to LA to once again try to kill angel.
i would've liked to kill the person who's done only half of that to me. so if i went to LA after all that to find faith in the arms of angel with his shirt open...woah

expecting compassion from buffy after all that is a bit too much to ask

 

[BibliophileAnn]

I am glad that someone else noticed the openness of Angel's shirt I thought I was the only one. Angel's hair was probably still damp from the shower he took and hugging Faith on his bed in what is more or less his bedroom. That alone made the scene seem more intimate. I laugh when Angel jumps off the bed like he had been either shot or shocked buttoning up said said shirt as he approaches Buffy. Not wonder her mind went to where it went stumbling on that. 😀

 

[xfivebyfive]

lol i don't agree with that at all. although i found buffy extremely obnoxious towards angel and was quite happy when they had their fights (when he punched her as well as the end when he told her that all this wasn't about her but saving somebody's soul) i totally understood why she said she'd beat her to death if she now apologised to her. look at what faith has done to buffy and the people around her:
she killed someone, she joined the mayor in a fight against buffy to become some super demon, tried to kill angel - then tried to steal angel from her, then (supposedly) ripped him off his soul, kidnapped willow, poisoned angel, stole buffys body and slept with her boyfriend and then went to LA to once again try to kill angel.
i would've liked to kill the person who's done only half of that to me. so if i went to LA after all that to find faith in the arms of angel with his shirt open...woah

expecting compassion from buffy after all that is a bit too much to ask

She had no business being there in the first place. The only reason she came was because she wanted to keep Faith away from Angel. She only really gets hurt by Faith when it has to do with her men. Buffy was willing to forgive and forget everything else Faith had done until she slept with Riley. Buffy and her men is what its about.

This was bigger then that. This was about saving her soul. If it were just about what Faith had done then that would be a different story. But Buffy only gets pissed when it comes to her men. She was willing to try to forgive Faith in season 3 until she attacked Angel. She was willing to try to forgive Faith until she slept with Riley. I'm sorry but stealing your boyfriend is really not the most important issue.

Faith did a lot of terrible things. I'm not denying that. She knows that and she was trying to make amends for that. Which is more then most of the other characters do. They can kill people with no consequences but Faith can never be forgiven. Its ridiculous. Spike can attempt to rape Buffy and be forgiven, Willow can murder people and be forgiven. Faith goes to prison for her crimes and is still never fully forgiven.

 

[TemperangelR]

towards the end of Buffy i actually learned to like her and in Angel she wasn't to bad for those few episodes she starred in... well general opinion: i like her...

 

[The Unspoken]

She had no business being there in the first place. The only reason she came was because she wanted to keep Faith away from Angel. She only really gets hurt by Faith when it has to do with her men. Buffy was willing to forgive and forget everything else Faith had done until she slept with Riley. Buffy and her men is what its about.

This was bigger then that. This was about saving her soul. If it were just about what Faith had done then that would be a different story. But Buffy only gets pissed when it comes to her men. She was willing to try to forgive Faith in season 3 until she attacked Angel. She was willing to try to forgive Faith until she slept with Riley. I'm sorry but stealing your boyfriend is really not the most important issue.

Yeah, Buffy should never have come to LA. Cause, you know, it's not like Faith critically injured someone simply because she was hard up for cash. And it's not like she almost tortured someone that tried to help her to death. Yeah, bad Buffy.

 

[xfivebyfive]

Yeah, Buffy should never have come to LA. Cause, you know, it's not like Faith critically injured someone simply because she was hard up for cash. And it's not like she almost tortured someone that tried to help her to death. Yeah, bad Buffy.

It was Angel's city. Angel's problem. No Buffy didn't need to be there. She didn't care about any of that the reason she was there was because she didn't want Faith near Angel.

Yeah Wesley really tried to help her just like he tried to help Connor. He's so great at helping people.

 

[Taake]

It was Angel's city. Angel's problem. No Buffy didn't need to be there. She didn't care about any of that the reason she was there was because she didn't want Faith near Angel.

Yeah Wesley really tried to help her just like he tried to help Connor. He's so great at helping people.

I don't like Buffy's behavior in Sanctuary but I can certainly see why she went. Not only had Faith just wrecked havoc in her life but yeah "Angel's city etc etc" - so what? A rogue Slayer is a lot to handle even for him... not to mention that last time Faith was around she nearly killed Angel.
I don't think Buffy ever considered the possibility of finding Faith and Angel snuggled up the way she did, so I don't think it was that she didn't want Faith 'near' Angel, she partly wanted revenge and probably partly wanted to protect her old beau, selfish motivations perhaps but there you go...

And hey, that's not fair towards Wes, but I'll save that indignation for another thread

 

[The Unspoken]

The show hasn't given us any indication that Buffy is mentally challenged. Why wouldn't she be able to separate her own personal hurt from the pressing need to catch a homicidal maniac? Didn't she do something similar when she decided to kill Angelus?

But let's assume for a second that Buffy's reasons for coming to LA ARE selfish and vindictive. What would be the worst thing that could happen: (assisting in) stopping Faith from hurting/maiming/killing (more) innocent people - by sending her to jail?

 

[zobothehobo]

I hate Buffy in Sanctuary she is so outrageous to both Faith and Angel. I am so glad when Angel punches her.

When she says that line to Faith I wanted to slap her. Its so nasty and so uncalled for. Here is this clearly broken person who is trying to make amends for what she did and your response is I will beat you to death? Real compassionate Buffy. Buffy just doesn't do well with broken people. She should have let Angel handle it instead of getting all jealous and turning into pms Buffy.

Seriously, the nastiness of that comment... Faith just swapped bodies with Buffy and tried to take her life. I would be nasty too. That's not PMS... it's anger. I'd be angry too. Faith caused much trouble, was a murder, and tried to take Buffy's life as her own. As Buffy says, she gave Faith EVERY chance. Faith was a bitch from day 1. She was jealous of Buffy's life. And instead of trying to be a part of it, she decided to try and take it from her, several times, several ways. At this point, I'd say Faith used her share of chances. Buffy didn't have to give Faith another chance or take anything she said as any sort of truth.

Also, after doing all the awful things Faith did to Buffy... how does one apologize for that? You don't. You don't apologize for something like that. If you're truly sorry and want to change, you don't apologize... you just show the person you can be and are better. Much like what Spike did in response to the bathroom scene. "I can't say I'm sorry, I can't use forgive me. All I can say is Buffy, I've changed."

 

[xfivebyfive]

I don't like Buffy's behavior in Sanctuary but I can certainly see why she went. Not only had Faith just wrecked havoc in her life but yeah "Angel's city etc etc" - so what? A rogue Slayer is a lot to handle even for him... not to mention that last time Faith was around she nearly killed Angel.
I don't think Buffy ever considered the possibility of finding Faith and Angel snuggled up the way she did, so I don't think it was that she didn't want Faith 'near' Angel, she partly wanted revenge and probably partly wanted to protect her old beau, selfish motivations perhaps but there you go...

And hey, that's not fair towards Wes, but I'll save that indignation for another thread

Thats all I meant though. That her motivations for going were selfish and not because she wanted to stop Faith. And had she just stopped and listened to Angel then fine, but she didn't really care about helping Faith just locking her up.

The comment at Wes was uncalled for sorry.

Seriously, the nastiness of that comment... Faith just swapped bodies with Buffy and tried to take her life. I would be nasty too. That's not PMS... it's anger. I'd be angry too. Faith caused much trouble, was a murder, and tried to take Buffy's life as her own. As Buffy says, she gave Faith EVERY chance. Faith was a bitch from day 1. She was jealous of Buffy's life. And instead of trying to be a part of it, she decided to try and take it from her, several times, several ways. At this point, I'd say Faith used her share of chances. Buffy didn't have to give Faith another chance or take anything she said as any sort of truth.

Also, after doing all the awful things Faith did to Buffy... how does one apologize for that? You don't. You don't apologize for something like that. If you're truly sorry and want to change, you don't apologize... you just show the person you can be and are better. Much like what Spike did in response to the bathroom scene. "I can't say I'm sorry, I can't use forgive me. All I can say is Buffy, I've changed."

My point though was that its not because of all that. We see at the end of Who Are You that Buffy got a glimpse into Faith. And even at the beginning of This Year's Girl she was willing to forgive her. For Buffy with Faith it's all about Faith trying to "steal" her guys. Sleeping with Riley was wrong but not nearly as wrong as everything else Faith had done. Yet prior to that she's willing to forgive her. She didn't have to forgive her she didn't have to trust her. But she should have trusted Angel who did trust her.

The comment was nasty. No Faith can't apologize. But I still think she should. Yes actions are more important and given time Faith's action prove she is sorry. But even those aren't enough for Buffy. She forgives Spike for what he does to her, but not Faith. She tries to make amends from that point on and its still never enough for Buffy.

I'm not going to get into Buffy vs. Faith because I honestly like both characters.

 

[Mindfiend]

She only really gets hurt by Faith when it has to do with her men. Buffy was willing to forgive and forget everything else Faith had done until she slept with Riley. Buffy and her men is what its about.

If you simply list what Faith has done to Buffy over the years, yes people are quite right in saying that her "If you apologise to me I'll beat you to death" is an appropriate response. It's not only appropriate, it is actually justified. There can be no apology anywhere near to adequate for what Faith has done, therefore her giving one would be another insult to chalk up to her list of mistakes.

However, look at what is the real motivation behind Buffy's outrage here and you'll see that no, it isn't even close to fair for her to respond in this manner. What Katie says cuts right to the heart of the matter: Buffy is ultra possessive about things, and people, she sees as "hers".

I love Buffy, couldn't be a Fuffy fan and not do, but there is a huge knot of deep rooted issues within her that make her view everything in terms of centric to herself. While she will make great sacrifices for the greater good, and many of them are selfless it is true, her entire mental outlook is usually, with some justification, all "me me me." That's why several characters feel the need to tell her at various points "It's not about you."

What sparks her behaviour in this episode is not their shared history, all that is is a weapon she uses to attack with, it is the fact she finds Faith in an intimate position with Angel. And not just a physical intimacy in both forms "“ the comfort and the misread sexual scenario "“ but also the intimacy of Angel's obvious feelings about Faith. He wants to help her because he cares about her. That's too much for Buffy to deal with. She hates to share...

Faith did a lot of terrible things. I'm not denying that. She knows that and she was trying to make amends for that. Which is more then most of the other characters do. They can kill people with no consequences but Faith can never be forgiven. Its ridiculous. Spike can attempt to rape Buffy and be forgiven, Willow can murder people and be forgiven. Faith goes to prison for her crimes and is still never fully forgiven.

Bravo! *applauds*

And here is the crux of the matter. Buffy can, will and does forgive everyone else for crimes just as terrible as Faith's, and often far, far worse.

Spike "“ Killed hundreds of people in his time, hurt every member of the Scoobies in some way, and attempted to rape Buffy. Yet she not only forgives him, she comes to love him.

Angel "“ His brutality, body count, terrible cunning and sadism while a vampire is legendary. He's also tortured each of the Scoobies, Giles literally, and killed Jenny. Yet she sees his repentance, sees his torment, forgives him and loves him.

Willow - She ripped the flesh from a man's body in front of her eyes and then tried to destroy the world. But again, forgiveness follows because she can see the person beneath the anguish that drove her to her actions.

Anya "“ A thousand years wreaking bloody vengeance upon men? That's got to be quite a body count too. Buffy does eventually take the hard line with Anya, but it is more because she feels it is her job to do so that from actually wanting to. For years before that she knew full well what Anya had done yet never batted an eyelid.

Giles "“ He murdered Ben so that Glory could never come back. Yep, even he has killed. Sure, it needed to be done but it does lead to a rather blurry grey area that complicates right and wrong.

Faith killed a man by accident, and then spiralled into darkness and did kill (humans) twice more. However, despite clearly displaying that she wanted to atone for her actions, and that they were also the results of inner torment, Buffy flatly refuses to forgive (at this stage in the series). Obviously it can't be because Faith is a murderer, most of Buffy's allies are, so t must be because of a personal agenda. It is. In this case, "stop trying to share what is mine!"

 

[zobothehobo]

The comment was nasty. No Faith can't apologize. But I still think she should. Yes actions are more important and given time Faith's action prove she is sorry. But even those aren't enough for Buffy. She forgives Spike for what he does to her, but not Faith. She tries to make amends from that point on and its still never enough for Buffy.

1. what Faith did was a lot worse than what Spike did IMO.
2. At some point, when you can't apologize for something you've done because it's so bad... Actually doing it and apologizing becomes rude and condescending. Like "You think you can just apologize and it's all good now?!" Even if that's not what Faith was thinking trying to apologize, that's what it would have sounded like. Buffy's comment wasn't uncalled for because she was saying "look, this is WAY too big for apologies. I'm sorry is NOT going to cut it and if you do say it, you will sound like you're spitting on me for being upset. And I will NOT take that." Faith should have known an apology was out of the question. If you can't apologize for something because it's so big, you shouldn't because you'll sound like an ass.
3. This is where my opinion gets... well, really opinionated. I don't think Faith did enough good to be forgiven. I don't think she proved to Buffy she was sorry for all that she did. Sure, she stayed in prison... big whoop. Now every criminal who stays in prison should automatically be forgiven of their crimes? She helped in season 7... but with the events of Empty Places... I'm sorry, Faith hadn't earned Buffy trust back yet. Faith hadn't earned forgiveness. Not even close.

 

[theroyalgoat]

I always thought that the reason Buffy was so reluctant to forgive Faith is because right around the time Faith killed the mayor's assistance Buffy really saw herself in Faith. Not so much personality wise, but being a slayer and exploring what that means. Buffy let herself go. And then Faith span out of control. Buffy holds herself up to such a high standard and when it was all parties and good times finally started to really connect to her slayer-ness. And was seduced by it for a short time.

And then badness, and not only that...but Faith went on to try to pin it on her, tried to kill Xander, and so on and so on, while Buffy had to sober up. Buffy had a very clear idea of what it meant to be a Slayer and for Faith all it meant was she was a hot chick with super powers and I think that really disgusted Buffy.

Plus I think Buffy put a lot of hope into Faith taking over Sunnydale and thus allowing her to lead the most normal life a slayer could, but then Faith got all kill happy and it was a huge let down.

 

[SoBlind]

nah, not buying it...

i think what some people here seem to ignore is that buffy can forgive everything if she sees change and remorse. when exactly was she supposed to forgive faith when she screwed (figuratively and literally) with her life in sunnydale and then skipped town? in which 5 minutes is she supposed to gain acceptance and forgiveness for faith? we need to remember that although we've seen faith distressed and in pain and wanting to change, buffy hasn't because she hasn't been there. she only comes in and sees the moment faith is in angel's arms right after having done so much damage to her life in sunnydale. there's no time in between for her. anyone in buffy's situation who claims they'd show compassion and forgiveness for faith at that very moment is fooling themself.

 

[Litheran]

To answer the original question; I liked Faith's character throughout her entire arc. I didn't like her as a person until after she had the breakdown on Angel and began to reform. I was dissatisfied with how they displayed Buffy and Faith's relationship in season seven. I thought the end of the show would have been a good time for them to bury the knife..erm...hatchet. 😉

 

[EuroBirdV8]

before buffy made here like this, i liked here.
maybe the bad buffy, but an great support either.

i think buffy was thinking, what have i done?!?
she looks sad🙁

and then buffy.....
look at her face🙁

 

[Mindfiend]

1. what Faith did was a lot worse than what Spike did IMO.

Far worse than Spike's attempted rape, yes, agreed. Far worse than killing hundreds of people? Really?

2. At some point, when you can't apologize for something you've done because it's so bad... Actually doing it and apologizing becomes rude and condescending ... Buffy's comment wasn't uncalled for ... Faith should have known an apology was out of the question. If you can't apologize for something because it's so big, you shouldn't because you'll sound like an ass.

Again, agree with you about Buffy's comment not being uncalled for, if, and it's a big if, the reason she gave it was the reason you state here. List what Faith has done to her and no apology can make up for it, you're right. However I think the reason you give for why Buffy says this is not the real reason. It's just the surface. Look deeper at the subtext and what her motivation is.

Faith should have known an apology was out of the question. If you can't apologize for something because it's so big, you shouldn't because you'll sound like an ass.

What episode did you watch? (just teasing.)

Faith tells Buffy, "I can't ever make it right." She knows there is no forgiveness for what she did.

Sure, she stayed in prison... big whoop. Now every criminal who stays in prison should automatically be forgiven of their crimes?

There is quite a difference between Faith and every criminal. Every criminal in jail is there against their will and can't do a thing about it. Faith, if she wanted and as she proved, could have escaped at any time. Slayer, remember? The whole point is that she chose to remain and take her punishment. To endure all the suffering being in prison brings.

I'm sorry, Faith hadn't earned Buffy trust back yet. Faith hadn't earned forgiveness. Not even close.

You're quite right: she hadn't earned Buffy's trust yet.

As for earning forgiveness, well, like you said, there is no forgiving what she did. However, while it should never be forgiven what she's done, there does come a point where you have to get past it and move on. Just like, to repeat a point, the Scoobies got past the fact that Angel murdered Jenny, or that Willow flayed Warren alive. There's no forgiving those actions and when thought about they will still cause pain, but it is possible to accept the need to put those memories aside.

3. This is where my opinion gets... well, really opinionated. I don't think Faith did enough good to be forgiven.

You're a Spuffy fan, yes? Love Spike, yes? (Who doesn't love that character?) If you analyse your feelings can you honestly say you're being objective and fair to Faith? Do you judge Spike by the same standard?

I think that because Spike is so awesome, so likeable and easy to love, he gets different treatment. He's witty, sarcastic, intelligent, devilish, handsome and on and on. Because of all this people tend to choose to ignore his past and what he was. Call it a selective blind spot.

Faith is much harder to love because she is a victim of her own facade. The bravado and steel outlook she projects is a defence mechanism that is so firmly in place that few people penetrate the deception to see the scared, vulnerable and fragile woman beneath. Her "I don't care," mantra is very effective, but is actually more about trying to convince herself than other people, although it works on others and doesn't work on herself. It's the definition of the literary phrase "tragic irony."

Faith is definitely the victim of physical abuse as a child "“ "My dead mother hits harder..." - and she's also almost certainly the victim of sexual abuse, too. Just look at how she freaks out with her "Don't touch me!" scene. She's poorly educated "“ "It does a heel thing too?" "“ and comes from an impoverished background. She's one of life's victims and a very damaged soul. All of this, and much more, makes Faith very difficult to warm to, but if you see why she is like she is, you'll find you begin to care a great deal more about her.

So I believe that fans like Angel, Spike, Willow, Anya, Giles and so ignore or forgive their horrific crimes because their characters are charismatic and easy to like, whereas Faith takes much more insight and effort.

 

[Icarium]

You’re a Spuffy fan, yes? Love Spike, yes? (Who doesn’t love that character?) If you analyse your feelings can you honestly say you’re being objective and fair to Faith? Do you judge Spike by the same standard?

I think that because Spike is so awesome, so likeable and easy to love, he gets different treatment. He’s witty, sarcastic, intelligent, devilish, handsome and on and on. Because of all this people tend to choose to ignore his past and what he was. Call it a selective blind spot.

Then again some of us hate both Faith and Spike.

So I believe that fans like Angel, Spike, Willow, Anya, Giles and so ignore or forgive their horrific crimes because their characters are charismatic and easy to like, whereas Faith takes much more insight and effort.

Giles? What horrific crimes would that be? Causing the death of his buddy by summoning a demon, something the person who died was very much on board with (the summoning, not the death, obviously)? Sure, I can see why Giles would feel guilty about it because it was an extremely stupid thing to do but a "horrific crime" is stretching it, especially compared to Anya, Spike and Angel's crimes.

Not that I have seen so much in the way of ignoring of the crimes of the characters you listed compared to Faith's. There is a lot of ignoring on all sides and this frankly annoys me a lot but let's not digress...

i think what some people here seem to ignore is that buffy can forgive everything if she sees change and remorse. when exactly was she supposed to forgive faith when she screwed (figuratively and literally) with her life in sunnydale and then skipped town? in which 5 minutes is she supposed to gain acceptance and forgiveness for faith? we need to remember that although we've seen faith distressed and in pain and wanting to change, buffy hasn't because she hasn't been there. she only comes in and sees the moment faith is in angel's arms right after having done so much damage to her life in sunnydale. there's no time in between for her. anyone in buffy's situation who claims they'd show compassion and forgiveness for faith at that very moment is fooling themself.

Agreed. Also, while Buffy can forgive just about anything, it doesn't mean she has to. If she wants to forgive Willow, Spike, Angel, Anya, random villain number 349 and not forgive Faith that's totally fine by me. It only makes Buffy more human rather than a political statement about how "everybody deserves a second chance".

 

[zobothehobo]

Far worse than Spike's attempted rape, yes, agreed. Far worse than killing hundreds of people? Really?

I was referring to the bathroom scene and in one of the many threads about that, you can see my reasoning for why it was not "attempted rape." Attempted rape REQUIRES intent (you cannot attempt something without intent, by definition). Spike's intentions were never to rape Buffy. And Buffy didn't know the Spike that killed hundreds of people. From what I can tell, he didn't really kill more than he had to in Sunnydale... and let's not forget Becoming. He was soulless, evil... and he helped Buffy save the world. And you can say it's just about Drusilla but how do you explain

We like to talk big. (indicates himself) Vampires do. 'I'm going
to destroy the world.' (looks at the officer) That's just tough guy
talk. (steps over to the car) Strutting around with your friends over a
pint of blood. (sits on the hood) The truth is, I like this world.
(pulls the cigarette pack from the officer's shirt pocket) You've got...
dog racing, Manchester United. (pulls one out and drops the pack on the
officer) And you've got people. (exhales) Billions of people walking
around like Happy Meals with legs. It's all right here. (lights the
cigarette and takes a drag) But then someone comes along with a vision.
With a real... (exhales) passion for destruction. (takes another drag
and looks at Buffy) Angel could pull it off. Goodbye, Picadilly.
Farewell, Leicester Bloody Square. You know what I'm saying?

That's Spike saying he doesn't want to destroy the world.

Again, agree with you about Buffy's comment not being uncalled for, if, and it's a big if, the reason she gave it was the reason you state here. List what Faith has done to her and no apology can make up for it, you're right. However I think the reason you give for why Buffy says this is not the real reason. It's just the surface. Look deeper at the subtext and what her motivation is.

Oh I get there are other reasons for Buffy saying this. But my reason makes the statement ok.

There is quite a difference between Faith and every criminal. Every criminal in jail is there against their will and can't do a thing about it. Faith, if she wanted and as she proved, could have escaped at any time. Slayer, remember? The whole point is that she chose to remain and take her punishment. To endure all the suffering being in prison brings.

I was just talking about this on a smaller scale with my sister. She's gotten in trouble a lot at school recently for being late to class. The punishment for that is detention, until you've racked up enough of those to get ISS (which she has done several times this year). According to her, they don't really take attendance in detention so they don't know if you go or not... so she doesn't go anymore. I said to her "so just because you can not go, you can not accept your punishment means you shouldn't?" By your reasoning, every did who actually DOES go to detention at my sister's school proves they feel bad about whatever they did. Let me tell you what. I went to detention at that school one time. I wore a shirt that's straps were too thin... and I was given detention. After I served my detention (and they didn't take attendance), I would have worn that same shirt again the next day. I didn't feel bad about it, but I respected that what I did was against the rules and I was no being punished for breaking the rules.

Now let's say for a minute there was this miracle and my sister decided to go to detention. Does that make her being late to class almost every day ok? Does that mean the teachers should say "I don't care you were late every day last week, all is forgiven!"

Just like, to repeat a point, the Scoobies got past the fact that Angel murdered Jenny, or that Willow flayed Warren alive. There's no forgiving those actions and when thought about they will still cause pain, but it is possible to accept the need to put those memories aside.

They got past Faith murdering people at the end...

You're a Spuffy fan, yes? Love Spike, yes? (Who doesn't love that character?) If you analyse your feelings can you honestly say you're being objective and fair to Faith? Do you judge Spike by the same standard?

I think that because Spike is so awesome, so likeable and easy to love, he gets different treatment. He's witty, sarcastic, intelligent, devilish, handsome and on and on. Because of all this people tend to choose to ignore his past and what he was. Call it a selective blind spot.

I saved some of my rant above about Spike for down here. I'll pick up where I left off

Thatt's Spike saying he doesn't want to destroy the world. Faith knew that the Mayor's ultimate plan was to take over the world. Yet she willingly went along with it. Spike makes it clear in Becoming part 2, he wouldn't. I don't have a blind spot for Spike. I know he's a good person. Becoming part 2 proved to me he never fully lost sweet William. I didn't have any real indication that Faith wasn't just a dumb bitch by the end of season 3. Then she came back and my god... And yes, Faith had a tough childhood. But lots of people do. Not all of them turn out to be psycho killers. And having a tough childhood doesn't excuse anything. The tough childhood thing is a cop-out. Do you think you use it because Faith is so BA, awesome, and hot that you wan to like her?

Faith is much harder to love because she is a victim of her own facade. The bravado and steel outlook she projects is a defence mechanism that is so firmly in place that few people penetrate the deception to see the scared, vulnerable and fragile woman beneath. Her "I don't care," mantra is very effective, but is actually more about trying to convince herself than other people, although it works on others and doesn't work on herself. It's the definition of the literary phrase "tragic irony."

Faith is definitely the victim of physical abuse as a child "“ "My dead mother hits harder..." - and she's also almost certainly the victim of sexual abuse, too. Just look at how she freaks out with her "Don't touch me!" scene. She's poorly educated "“ "It does a heel thing too?" "“ and comes from an impoverished background. She's one of life's victims and a very damaged soul. All of this, and much more, makes Faith very difficult to warm to, but if you see why she is like she is, you'll find you begin to care a great deal more about her.

See the second part of my rant above.

So I believe that fans like Angel, Spike, Willow, Anya, Giles and so ignore or forgive their horrific crimes because their characters are charismatic and easy to like, whereas Faith takes much more insight and effort.

I think you're wrong. I have plenty of insight into Faith's character... hell, I WAS Faith for a while in high school. I've been trying to not say this but I will... I was abused as a child. My dad hit me, he threw me against walls... he hurt me pretty darn bad. He also verbally abused me. I've done the abuse victim hard shell thing. Faith's abuse was worse than mine, I can tell that. But seriously... it doesn't excuse ANYTHING. Abuse victims do not have the right to do whatever the hell we want just because we were abused. We have to follow the rules just like everyone else.

If I had to pick something that would make Faith be harder to forgive than everyone else is that she's a slayer. The slayer is supposed to be the leader... the slayer is supposed to fight on the side of good... an Faith spat on that idea. The whole show is built around that idea so people find it difficult to forgive Faith. She turned against everything being a slayer means.

I don't think that's why I haven't forgiven Faith. I haven't forgiven Faith because I quite honestly don't think she's all that sorry. I think she'd do it all the same way if she had a choice. And I don't like her personality. And the whole "I was abused, feel my hard shell" thing proves how weak she is.

 

[Icarium]

That's Spike saying he doesn't want to destroy the world.

Sorry for the off-topic but that is a great big lie. When Angel looked like winning, Spike shrugged and made his escape. Not to mention he was the one who unleashed the Judge.

And Buffy didn't know the Spike that killed hundreds of people.

Please tell me you are joking. First time Buffy hears of Spike it is Angel saying "he is worse" and going on to describe as a n unstoppable force, bent on killing and destruction. Not to mention any vampire who has lived for over century would most likely have kileld thousands just to satisfy his hunger.